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life after death / near death experiences
March 23, 2007
1:08 pm
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lewis
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any thoughts or experiences? please share I am fascinated with this subject.

March 23, 2007
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Lewis.

Years ago in the late 1970's and early 1980's I worked as an Electronics Technician in a major hospital. In the course of carrying out my duties, I came across a very distraught patient. He was bitterly complaining that no one would listen to his story. If they did, no one would take what he had to say seriously. At that stage Dr. Raymond Moody's book 'Life After Life' was relatively new and few had read it relatively speaking. Fortunately, I had.

I sat on the patient's bed and asked him to tell me his story. He told me that he had experienced a myocardial infarction, a heart attack, on the side of a public road. He found himself several metres above his body which by then was lying motionless in the gutter. At first he didn't recognise the lifeless body as his. He felt absolutely wonderful, blissful. When he realized what had happened and that it was his body lying on the ground below him, he couldn't understand all the fuss being made over this discarded 'shell'. He was adamant that it wasn't 'him'. The ambulance arrived. From his vantage point above he saw the ambulance personel lifting the body into the ambulance. At this stage he had a 'vision' of the grief-strickened faces of his wife and children. He felt great compassion for them. At that instant he made a decision to return to his body and that was all he remembered until he awoke in the intensive care ward of the hospital.

Testing the guy's sincerity, I said: "You probably dreamed the whole experience. It wouldn't have been real." With this he became very agitated, insisting angrily that his experience was more real than this everyday 'reality' that we label as real. After he convinced me that he had a genuine NDE, I asked him if he had read Moody's book or any other on NDEs. He said that he had never even heard of NDEs let alone read any books on the subject. 30 years ago the phenomena of NDEs wasn't widely known about or discussed openly. People who did were usually branded as crackpots for believing that their 'hallucinations' were 'real'.

After leaving this patient, I went to the sister in charge of the ward and told her of the guy and his story. She said: "Yes, I've heard him raving and ranting on. Take no notice. Many people have such hallucinations. We don't take them to seriously here."

Apparently there are millions who have had these experiences but who have given up expecting people to believe them. I've personally encountered several people who have recounted their NDE stories to me with great conviction of their absolute reality.

I've since read several books on the topic, most written by medical doctors, people of science, with both great credibility and objectivity.

Nowadays, I'm convinced that consciousness, in whatever form it takes, does not terminate with death. I believe that death is a transitory stage - just as is birth, going to sleep and awakening - on a much greater 'continuum' that is without beginning or end. That the world will cease to exist at some point in the distant future, I have no doubt. However, that 'fact' does not necessitate the end of consciousness, whatever the form or level that may take.

There are many adherents of scientism who will in all probability contest what I have written above. However, the pathetic alternate explanations offered by these materialists don't hold water when examined under the microscope of close examination. There's much that we humans just do not know!

March 23, 2007
7:11 pm
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Tiger Trainer
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my husband had a similar experience. he had a bad fall when he was 3 years old and was declared dead. He remembers what it was like. He doesn't share the experience with a lot of people because he doesn't want it to have it trivialized.

March 23, 2007
7:19 pm
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Tez, that caused me to register in the randi forum and ask the pros about that.

Lets see what they say to the URL you posted b4:

http://www.espresearch.com/esp.....329B.shtml

March 24, 2007
1:59 pm
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lewis
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thanks tez, i love this subject, i find it all fascinating, i never get bored of hearing stuff like that, i really like the idea that there is more to life as we know it.

March 24, 2007
6:22 pm
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guest_guest
"Lets see what they say to the URL you posted b4"

Gr8 idea!

But I suspect that Randi, being a strong advocate of scientism rather than science, will object to the notion of anything existing beyond the domain of material science.

If Randi believes in hypnotism, I would like to see him prove that people are actually hypnotized.

Having said that, I'm pleased that the Randis of the world exist. They keep the charlatans on their toes. It is just that they tend to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Please read my What the Bleep cut and paste on the God bashing thread for more on how science is pushing the frontiers of the unknown in the quest for knowledge about the ultimate reality; knowledge that lies far beyond our knowledge of the 'material' world as we presently don't understand it.

March 24, 2007
6:46 pm
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Lewis.

Thanks for your thanks.

I think we have to be very careful not to draw too many long bows from the recounting of these experiences.

For example, an associate of mine years ago met 'Jesus' in an NDE and became a gungho born again tub thumper overnight. When I questioned him very closely, he had to admit that the figure that greeted him never introduced himself as JC. In fact he never introduced himself at all. Mormons would probably say the figure was an angel, some Buddhists might incorrectly surmise that it was Buddha, Hindi Bramha, Muslims Allah or Mohammed.

Believers in reincarnation of the soul would probably see my associate's NDE figure as evidence of the soul waiting for its next incarnation meeting a spiritual guide for that journey.

We just don't know "What the Bleep Is Going On". Its fun to speculate - but as a rock solid foundation for spiritual beliefs the accounts of NDE experiences are like quicksand.

I personally believe, without scientific proof just based upon conclusions drawn from putting together a huge jigsaw of life experiences, that the all pervasive Mind - not a God of any kind - underpins all. What that mind generates as its reality after death depends very largely on its prior conditioning. Therefore, I believe that each of us will see just what our ego fenced 'portion' of mind will create at that time.

I remember a Tibetan Buddhist rinpoche saying that we only have to see what our mind does in our dreams to see what our 'afterlife' will be like for us! That's scary enough for me to want to look deeply into that mind now, and now, and now, and now ... ...

March 25, 2007
12:28 am
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hi tez, I'll also ask the guys about hypnotism then. I'm waiting for my membership to be approved.

March 25, 2007
12:11 pm
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lewis
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hi thanks tez

I have been doing some reading on life after death, mediums and spitualism. Life after death is similar to earth only we create the experience, we experience after life. I thought that similaar to this life, I think the mind creates our experiences on earth 'imagine it and it shall be'.

March 25, 2007
12:18 pm
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Tez,

I also believe in life after death. This isn't unusual considering my religious views, but I once saw the spirit of a relative about nine months after she died, and long before I became religious, I believed in paranormal phenomena.

What I am wondering is how you reconcile evolution with your belief in life after death. You speak of an all-pervasive Mind. How does this differ from God, and do you believe this Mind created the world and life? If not, then who/what created these?

March 25, 2007
4:03 pm
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seeker, what did you see exactly? a mist? or you "knew" that its her?

March 25, 2007
9:46 pm
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seekerw

On the 25-Mar-07 you said:

"What I am wondering is how you reconcile evolution with your belief in life after death."

I find nothing to reconcile. I see no conflict or contradiction between these two beliefs whatsoever. Do you?

"You speak of an all-pervasive Mind. How does this differ from God, and do you believe this Mind created the world and life?"

My understanding of your understanding of your God is that of a separate, thinking, feeling entity who is all powerful, all knowing, all good.

My belief is that Mind is the underpinnings of the All and always was - not a super person, not an entity, not a supreme being, not a thing, not having any borders, not definable, an infinite 'void'(not nothingness) full of all possibilities from which this universe is one instant by instant manifestation. If I talk to 'mind' I talk to my'self', to you, to the universe and all in it.

Egos manifest within mind inseparable from it yet able to maintain the delusion of an independent 'self'-hood. Ego is the 'mind-game' that we call 'individual minds'. What makes them seem like 'individuals' is the ego's 'walls', 'fences', 'barricades' that make PSI powers beyond the reach of most people. But some rare humans have reduced the ego power game of the mind allowing 'them' to 'jump the fence' as it were and access and communicate with other 'closely tuned' minds, using 'mental telepathy', etc.

Then you asked:

"If not, then who/what created these?"

Who created your dreams? This creator of your dreams is the highly restrained ego restricted mind. And look how real it seems when you are actually dreaming!!! I've felt the pain of a bullet entering my body in a dream.

Imagine the unfetted power of the unrestrained Mind to manifest patterns that constrain 'energy' into behaving as an electron, a proton, a neutron and as all the other sub-atomic particles behave. On the macro scale with all the 'little' ego restrained minds unconsciously interacting with Mind, no wonder quantum physicists for the last 75 years have been saying that the 'observer' affects the 'observed' in a very real sense! The process of creation didn't just happen once and then the rest just evolved in some mysterious way. Creation is happening instant by instant. See Prof. John Wren Lewis's "The Dazzling Dark" - surf on that and you will find out what he experiences daily as the instant by instant creation of his world(John Wren Lewisizing).

It takes a major paradigm shift in how we perceive the world to see this. NDE's sometimes invoke this paradigm shift - as it was for John Wren-Lewis. Great trauma at other times does the same. In my case it was a momentous life changing meditation experience that capped off what had started many years before. That paradigm 'shift' is far from complete. I have a long way to go yet - much further than I have come so far. If I was 'there' I doubt that I would be here writing this. I would see the futility of trying to explain the unexplainable if I were.

March 25, 2007
10:07 pm
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lewis

ON the 25-Mar-07 you said:

"I have been doing some reading on life after death, mediums and spitualism. Life after death is similar to earth only we create the experience, we experience after life."

I agree. I further maintain that we 'create' our experiences here and now without realizing it, just as we will after the transition of our minds shutting down our bodies.

When you think about it one cell doesn't just up end itself and start telling each other cell to start dying. Death comes with a collective 'decision': "I've had enough of this!"

Who makes this decision? A dying brain that has been programmed to fight to survive? I doubt it.

The mind that has been interfacing with the brain makes that decision. The criteria for reaching that decision are many and varied.

Someone dies in the dentist chair from 'shock' requires far less to decide "I've had enough" than the soldier with his brains exposed who fights on to survive for many hours against such unspeakable odds. One remarkable case documented in psychological literature describes the survival and recovery of the railway worker who had a huge steel hexagonal drill bit three feet long and an inch or more in diameter driven diagonally right through his skull by an unexpected detonation of a charge being rammed home by the drill. He lived for many years after his accident with huge personality changes.

The 'will to live' and 'losing' the will to live is very well recognized. Who makes the decision is not.

March 25, 2007
10:09 pm
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guest_guest

On the 25-Mar-07 you said:

"hi tez, I'll also ask the guys about hypnotism then. I'm waiting for my membership to be approved."

Good stuff. I'll patiently await their response without any great expectations.

March 26, 2007
7:48 am
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lewis
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Hi,

Thanks for the reply tez 🙂

I have had many 'spirtual' experiences , yet I cannot say that it is spirtual 100%, I always have a logical side too, which means I am always in two minds.

March 27, 2007
5:59 pm
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2 other outstanding books that are excellent reads:

"90 minutes in Heaven", written by a credible sane man who dies and went there to Heaven. The other book is "35 Minutes in Hell", written by a man who died and went to Hell. He vowed upon returning that he would not go there the next time he died!!

I wonder why some have these NDE's and some do not ,.. or perhaps some do not remember having them? But it is interesting to think about how it just was not their time to die, so they came back; Upon which I ask the question, WHO decided that they go to Heaven or Hell and WHO decided that they come back?

March 28, 2007
6:51 pm
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on my way

On the 27-Mar-07 you asked:

"WHO decided that they go to Heaven or Hell and WHO decided that they come back?"

The qualification is for Guest_guest's benefit; my scientifically unprovable but rationally based beliefs in this regard are:

Almost invariably the NDE'rs themselves decide to come back. They see some 'vision' of very compelling unfinished business, or the grief of others etc. This is well documented by many NDE researchers. It seems that the reasons for coming back are usually self-less reasons such as wanting to alleviate the grief of their wives, husbands, children etc.

Of course I'm sure that many just want to escape the nightmare(hell) created by their undistracted self-focussed mind. Suicide NDE'rs who make it back say that they will never do that again. The hell in their minds does not dissappear on 'clinical' death but gets far worse.

LSD experimenters seem to have different experiences from each other when their unconscious is opened up to them by LSD without the conscious mind's usual defenses. Depending upon one's past experiences and our reactions to same, we create a heaven or a hell for the self, the degree of which is intentions dependent. Some LSD experimenters experience hell on earth, others heaven on earth, while others seem to experience something in between.

Similarly, IMHO, life after death is simply our unconscious mind exposed to us without any earthbound distractions to veil that unconscious from our conscious awareness. We judge ourselves without the bulldust of denial that we presently throw up to avoid this unpleasant, self-assessment task. Our 'judge' is our true nature, our own underpinning pure mind that is ever present and unchanging and that is the 'One' and the 'All' - there is no 'other'. This Pure Mind is not some kind of a God of human construction made in its own image and likeness by the deluded 'little' mind.

That's my take.

March 29, 2007
8:29 am
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We are made up of soul, spirit and physical. The soul makes up our conciousness, emotions and our mind. Our soul goes somewhere, either stays here on earth, a ghost maybe? or goes to Heaven or Hell. That is my take. I agree that in our minds we can create our own hell, but create our own heaven?...that I do not beleive. So these souls meet God or they meet the devil, we don't off into some void. You exasperate me dear luv. Sometimes I just wonder! 🙂

March 31, 2007
6:39 pm
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On my way

On the 29-Mar-07 you wrote:

"You exasperate me dear luv. Sometimes I just wonder! :)"

I wonder too. What puzzles me is why you should feel this way. Just because you choose to believe the Christian mythology, this doesn't exasperate or distress me at all.

Expressing your beliefs here is your Site Coordinator given privilege and right and if it sits comfortably with you bringing you some peace of mind to divulge your beliefs here then I am happy for you.

Why I think that I "exasperate" you is that you seem to need me to believe as you do. If so why is this?

Or could it be that you fear my words changing the minds of others therein stopping them from believing as you do? Do you fear decreasing support for your beliefs? If so then why is this support necessary for you to feel good?

Or are your beliefs so 'secondhand' that you harbor doubts about their veracity just as I did for so many years?

You see OMW, having been a 'blind faith believer', I understand how you feel. I've trodden that very shakey Christian path not understanding why I became so angry when my Christian beliefs were challenged. One day the penny dropped and I saw clearly that I really couldn't swallow the party line any longer. I pulled the pin and went to the Hindi party line. I abandoned that after 5 years for the very same reasons.

Now my beliefs are my own beliefs honed from my life's churnings about all the world has to offer - not from any book or from any pulpit with some supposed religious 'authority' dictating what I should believe.

One only has to look at the desperately grieving mother animal standing helplessly bye seeing her offspring of necessity being torn to shreds by a hungry predator in order tosurvive to understand that no all powerful, all knowing, all loving God created this world. Nor does such a God exists to have a son who supposedly saves all those born after the year 33 CE. If you can't see this then I truly feel sorry for you.

I believe that you and good folks like you are emotionally driven to unquestionly believe as you do, just as I once was - but no more.

Peace be with you.

March 31, 2007
7:26 pm
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Hi Tez,

I'm just reading this thread now. It's a topic that interests me. You wrote, "I personally believe, without scientific proof just based upon conclusions drawn from putting together a huge jigsaw of life experiences, that the all pervasive Mind - not a God of any kind - underpins all. What that mind generates as its reality after death depends very largely on its prior conditioning. Therefore, I believe that each of us will see just what our ego fenced 'portion' of mind will create at that time.

I remember a Tibetan Buddhist rinpoche saying that we only have to see what our mind does in our dreams to see what our 'afterlife' will be like for us! That's scary enough for me to want to look deeply into that mind now, and now, and now, and now ... ... "

Did you ever read the book "Sphere" by Michael Crichton? An oldie... and one that ends kind of lamely.... but contains a similar theme, of how our unconscious mind has a power to create our reality.

I would like to think that consciousness persists beyond physical death.... but if I no longer have awareness of the "self" that I have known in this life, well then I guess for all intents and purposes, "I" will die, no?

March 31, 2007
8:30 pm
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Kroika

On the 31-Mar-07 you wrote:

"Did you ever read the book "Sphere" by Michael Crichton?"

No I haven't.

Then you wrote:

"I would like to think that consciousness persists beyond physical death.... but if I no longer have awareness of the "self" that I have known in this life, well then I guess for all intents and purposes, "I" will die, no?"

You appear to me to have assumed that conscious awareness depends upon the awareness of having a 'self'. This assumption is one that I don't make or believe.

I believe that this awareness of a 'self' is the very building blocks used by the ego of the "I" to maintain its integrity. The ego surely fights to the bitter end to maintain that integrity. The ego even uses the fear of extinction of conscious awareness to its own ends in maintaining its boundaries.

Death is a word, a word we use as a placeholder for that transition wherein the brain and it's body support systems totally ceases to function and cellular disintegration begins.

A crucial question here is whether the mind depends on the brain for its existence or vice versa.

I believe in the 'vice versa'. I believe that the very neural patterns in the brain depend upon the mind. The mind however plays a game called by us manifesting the 'ego'. The mind is 'interfaced' to the brain so intimately that it is deluded into thinking it is the brain and has a 'self'. This is at the core of the ego's game.

Death neither puts an end the ego's defenses nor dimishes its boundaries.

NDE experiencers still have a firm sense of 'self', albeit well and truly detached from the brain and the rest of the body.

Losing all reference to any 'self' far from terminating conscious awareness actually expands consciousness unbelievably into omniscience. To achieve this, is a gargantuan task that many gurus undertake to achieve. Buddhists believe that when Guatama, the Sakyamuni Buddha, attained 'nirvana' he lost all reference to a 'self' of any kind. All PSI (siddhi) powers were his. The Buddhists believe that at his 'parinirvana' he left his body in a completely predicted and controlled way.

Before he died the Buddha was asked the question whether the Buddha would exist after he died. Knowing the state of ignorance of the mind asking the question, the Buddha was reluctant to answer this question. When coerced by excessive pleadings to reply, he answered that he both would and would not exist. My take on this is answer is that the Buddha meant that his conscious awareness would still exist minus any reference to a 'self' whatsoever. Thus the Buddha, Guatama, would not exist, but the conscious awareness, that is so constrained by our 'ego' in most if not all of us non-Buddhas, still would exist.

It is extremely difficult for our ego conditioned minds to grasp what a complete and absolute egoless state of mind is like.

Can you possibly imagine a state of mind in which there is no consciousness of any 'you' or any 'it' in relation to any 'me' that I think I am?

Can you imagine boundless awareness? Yet it exists as the Universal Mind that we are but don't know it! If we did know it absolutely then the two Tezing and Kroikaing games would be over - but not our conscious awarenesses. They would be merged with that of the Universal Mind from which they sprang. Just as two rivers merging into the 'one', the water doesn't dissappear - only the illusion of the existence of the discreteness of the two rivers changes into another illusion of 'oneness'. When this river hits the sea another illusion of the one 'seaness' is born.

All is illusion except 'pure mind' - yet illusions exist neither as the 'form' of "I" nor as the 'emptiness' of "I" but as the 'middle way' of 'both-and'.

March 31, 2007
8:31 pm
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Sorry about the underlining stuffup!

March 31, 2007
10:50 pm
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hi tez, im gonna try registering again at the randi forums, i did now infact. Whats your final ammo for external conciousness? Whats the strongest i mean? - thats what I'm gonna tell them.

What are your strongest arguments in support of that?

April 1, 2007
7:28 am
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I believe that life after death is possible even if there is no God and even if we do not have souls.

That being said, I also believe that it is possible that science may one day invent a cure for death.

You could get your head torn off by a bear, incinerated by a nuclear bomb--no problem; covered by insurance and you will be back to work by Monday 9 am, 10 am latest.

April 1, 2007
8:33 pm
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31-Mar-07

" Whats your final ammo for external conciousness? Whats the strongest i mean? - thats what I'm gonna tell them.

What are your strongest arguments in support of that?"

Bell's Theorem - the cat in the box.

Quantum Theory demonstrates that the act of observation affects the observed. See:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....055013.htm

Our consciousness of the observed external 'reality' affects its behavior. Therefore consciousness must not be constrained to the brain to interact with the 'external'.

Remote and verifiable out-of-body experiences while clinical death has been established beyond any doubt.

PSI in general.

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