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Lib Threads--FSM can be discussed here.
December 3, 2005
1:08 am
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Worried_Dad
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As a scientist and educator with some deeply held and cherished spiritual beliefs, I have been dismayed with the debate in Kansas and elsewhere as to whether or not the "theory" of intteligent design ought to be taugh alongside the theory of natural selection in Biology classes.

It has been pointed out, quite rightly, that there are many theories of intelligent design, and that they all are equally worthy of being taught in science classrooms.

For example, many people believe that scientific evidence (such as trends in global warming) as well as scripture and faith indicate that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. The offical website of the Pastafarian faith can be found at:

http://www.venganza.org/

May the comfort of His noodly appendage be upon you. Ramen.

December 3, 2005
2:01 am
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mamacinnamon
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WD:

You have such a poet way w/ words. Almost fell outta my chair.

I will upfront say I am not extremely well versed on the Kansas situation. Ask my hubby you'll get ear fulls. I've learned my mother's art of tuning out. But, what I do understand my point is..... If they are gonna teach evolution in the classrooms then why not teach creationism (did I get the word right?). Ya know what I mean.

But I do think that maybe the noodles should be left in the pot where they belong, or came from, or crawled out of half baked, smoked their way out of, or just grew there in the merky water.

Just my thought. 🙂

December 3, 2005
3:49 am
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Worried_Dad
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Hi mamaC,

"If they are gonna teach evolution in the classrooms then why not teach creationism "

Well, for three reasons. First, we have a constitutional separation of church and state which mean that the government does not spend tax dollars to teach religion--we can teach ABOUT religion, as in comparative religion or mythology, but we can't offer credence or preference to any particular religion.

Secondly, the issue here is the teaching of science, which is about testable theories of natureal explanations for observable phenomenon. Darwinian Evolution is a testable theory proposing that a real phenomena (natural selection and mutation) is the mechanism explaining the observed existence of many species which all share structural, chemical and genetic similarities.

Creationism, on the other hand, is not a testable theory and does not propose a natural mechanism for anything. It just says "some people think God did it."

In the world of science, there is really no debate as to whether creationism is a viable competing theory with evolution--it is not a scientific theory at all, it is dogma and faith.

Thirdly, if we teach one story of supernatural creation (i.e., intelligent design) as an "alternative" explanation to evolution then in all fairness we would have to teach them all.

So if we teach that maybe the earth was created 6,000 years ago by the God of the Isrealites, then we would also have to teach that the earth was created 4,000 years ago by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And if we teach THAT then we would also have to teach from the competing view that earth was created 2,000 years agao by ther Flying Linguine Monster. And if we teach THAT then we would ALSO have to teach......

So the wise and legal thing to do is to only teach SCIENCE in science classes, and teach religious ideas in comparative religion, or anthropology or mythology classes. Or, kids could just go to church and Sunday school to learn all the religion they wanted.

December 3, 2005
1:51 pm
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mamabear
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So if the US government determines that it is against the law for the words "under God" to be on our money, then, so be it.

And if that same government decides that the "Ten Commandments" are not to be used in or on a government installation, then, so be it.

And since they already have prohibited any prayer in the schools, on which they deem their authority, then so be it.

I say, "so be it," because I would like to be a law abiding US citizen.

I say, "so be it," because I would like to think that smarter people than I are in positions to make good decisions. I would like to think that those people have the American Publics' best interests at heart.

BUT, YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE I'D LIKE?

Since we can't pray to God, can't Trust in God and cannot Post His Commandments in Government buildings, I don't believe the Government and it's employees should participate in the Easter and Christmas celebrations

which honor the God that our government is eliminating from many facets of American life.

I'd like my mail delivered on Christmas, Good Friday, Thanksgiving & Easter. After all, it's just another day.

I'd like the US Supreme Court to be in session on Christmas, Good Friday, Thanksgiving & Easter as well as Sundays A fter all, it's just another day.

I'd like the Senate and the House of Representatives to not have to worry about getting home for the "Christmas Break." After all ~ it's just another day.

I'm thinking that a lot of my taxpayer dollars could be saved, if all government offices & services would work on Christmas, Good Friday & Easter. It shouldn't cost any overtime since those would be just like any other day of the week to a government that is trying to be "politically correct".

In fact....

I think that our government should work on Sundays (initially set aside for worshipping God.! .) because, after all, our government says that it should be just another day...

What do you all think????

If this idea gets to enough people, maybe our elected officials will stop giving in to the minority opinions and begin, once again, to represent the "majority" of ALL of the American people.

SO BE IT.........

December 3, 2005
1:53 pm
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lollipop3
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BRAVO.....mamabear!!!!!

Love,
Lolli

December 3, 2005
1:54 pm
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mamabear
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I know that what I just posted was not exactly on topic, but it correlates.

December 3, 2005
1:56 pm
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mamabear
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Non-religious people reap the benefits of religion, but they don't see that or want to admit it in any way.

Maybe it is time to start pointing it out?

December 3, 2005
2:00 pm
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mamabear
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Lollipop3,

I can't take credit, it was in an email sent to me, I just like what it pointed out and thought I should share.

Mamabear

December 3, 2005
2:29 pm
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mamacinnamon
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Wow MamaBear... Whew!!! Gotta open the window.

Wish I could articulate like whomever wrote that.

OK, WD... as I am not as elequant a writer as you. 🙂 Here is what I am saying....

Leave them damn noodles in the pot. They are already mush and stinkin by by now.

I am not saying to teach the children to pray to one God (although I think they should), or I am not saying that any specific denomination or religious group should be taught coz some believe in the one true God, others in Buddah, others that Jesus was just a good little prophet boy, on and on I can go. I don't begrudge anyone to believe or pray to whomever they want to. (oh, except the cows, and I eat cows so I just cannot see praying to them.)

What I mean by creationism, and I may have the wrong word as I said earlier, is to teach them that there is "A" higher power that created this earth. There are more and more findings that validate the Bible. Now, I didn't say teach the Bible (although that would be ok w/ me too). Oh, you get where I'm goin w/ this; that there is "A" higher power that did create the earth and put the living things as well as the non living things on it, etc. etc.

Not totally on the subject either... but I think when they took church out of schools, when they take the commandments from our courthouses, when they want to take "In God We Trust" off our money...that this is a true slap in the face as to how and why this country we live in was founded in the first place. Was it not the Pilgrims that risked their lives to cross the ocean to start a new world where they could worship God w/o the King injecting himself into it all? I've been out of school a long time, so they may have changed that too by now. But explain to me why if this nation was formed on the basis of Christianity, why same Christianity is so under fire. They may as well have stayed in England and been persecuted.

Shall I go on into when that person in the 1960s decided discipline was wrong and that all little children were born pure and would thrive and be nothin but good if there was no discipline given to them? And now look at the crime and everything that goes on in our country, and the kids that go to school w/ guns, etc. etc. Hmmmm, that person must not have had any children. But, I will leave it here for another day.

December 3, 2005
3:07 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Mamabear,

It would be unconstitutional to forbid federal employees from celebrating Easter and Christmas( or Ramadan, or the feast of the FSM for that matter.)

Actually, you are allowed to pray in government buildings, just not allowed to impose your prayers on others.

If federal offices were open on Christmas, Good Friday & Easter it would actually cost the taxpayers more money, not save money.

I don't think that religion is the only legitimate reasons to allow people to have days off and holidays. Otherwise, I'd have to insist that all offices be closed on Fridays, which is of course a Holy day to Pastafarians. I'd like another day off, of course, but I wouldn't dream of sating it should be so just because of my personal spiritual beliefs. In Europe, people have a lot more vacation and holidays given to them by law, which does not reference religion, but simply respects people's need to have a life beyond work.

And of course I would like to have my mail delivered 365 days a year--who wouldn't?

December 3, 2005
3:14 pm
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Worried_Dad
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MamaC, you wrote: "What I mean by creationism, and I may have the wrong word as I said earlier, is to teach them that there is "A" higher power that created this earth."

Yes, I feel that people who believe that the universe was created by "a" higher power should teach their children about that belief. And people who believe that the universe was created by "many" higher powers should teach their children about that. But since those beliefs are based on religion and faith, and not on science, I think they ought to be taught either at home, or in Church and Sunday School (or Friday school for Pastafarians,)and NOT in Public School SCIENCE classes.

I mean, how would you feel if you sent your child to sunday school, or Bible school, and discovered that they have been learning about evolution, or cutting edge human cloning and embryonic stem cell extraction technology. I would want my kids to be taught about religion in sunday school, not science. And I want children to learn about science in science classes, not religion.

December 3, 2005
3:16 pm
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mamabear
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If I had the patience to teach my own children, and the ability to do it, I would home school them, but alas, I am not a teacher. And I am learning patience, but it is slow going.

Ah, to be back in the times of a Janette Oke book. Which by the way, I am loving every book of hers I have ever read.

As far as it goes, I teach my children about the Bible and my faith at home. And I told my son that we can pray inside our heads to God so nobody can hear us, and nobody can stop us from doing that. We go to church, and they learn there as well. At school I expect them to get a decenct education (which everyone knows American education is going severly downhill right now-especially in the areas of math and science) and I certainly don't want them to teach any horse manure about some stupid spaghetti monster. Which after reading all that which WD's link was to, I am starting to not agree with them by any means, but get their point. The blatant ridiculousness of FSM tells me how strongly they feel about keeping our religion out of public schools. I see how non-Christians feel about Christianity, and if they don't want our religion pushed on them then I say so be it. Let's take some responsiblity for teaching our kids the values we want them to have, and leave what is taught at public schools to be what is known. I personally think that evolution should not be taught either, as it is just a theory, and in science, we should focus on moving forward, not backwards. Save the debate for debate class and study that which we need to know to move forward.

Furthermore, evolution has so many problems with it, that I don't think it should be taught period.

December 3, 2005
3:33 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Mamabear,

I think we are getting closer to mutual understanding. Not withstanding your disrespect of the almighty FSM.

The point being made by the Prophet of the FSM is that the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (may the comfort of His Noodly Appendage be upon him) has just as much "scientific" support and validity as any other "theory" of Intelligent Design--namely, Zip.

There are many religious explanations of how the universe came to be. Some of them do not involve "intelligent design" or any kind of omnipotent creator. But they are all religious explanations and not scientific theories.

The point is that Religion and Science are different things, and that we ought not to represent one as the other, particulalry to impressionable young people who may need to make a living or career in one of those fields.

December 3, 2005
3:46 pm
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mamabear
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WD

LOL. I cannot in my wildest dreams think that you actually believe in FSM.

It is a pile of dung and you know it. You do not really believe it, you are just using humor as a way to express your belief that science and religion should be kept seperate and that is fine by me.

Am I correct, or are you really keeping up this charade. If you are kidding, I will play along. If you really believe that, then I will suggest that you check yourself into a psychiatric hospital.

LOL, please tell me you are not serious with this flying spaghetti monster business. Even the creator of this nonsense doesn't really believe in HIM

mamabear

December 3, 2005
4:05 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Mamabear:

Heh, heh, heh. You know I love you, come on, admit it.

Yes, I am employing my sense of humor. I do not want religious ideology to confuse the teaching of science...what science is, what it means, and what it does. I don't want religion to outshout science...look what that did for Galileo.

And I am also employing my intellect. And my heart.

I also do not want some Jackass Peckerwood atheist telling me that just because I cannot mathematically prove the existence of God (yet, but I am working on it) that my moral beliefs are irrational and irrelevant.

Some of those beliefs include:

That all men (of course, women, too)are created equal.

That we ought to revere and protect the life, health, growth and innate dignity of human beings.

That we ought to respect and protect the Ecosystems of this planet that sustain all life, including human life.

That we ought to seek and teach our children to seek wisdom and truth.

It is true that sometimes I feel weakness in my faith as a Pastafarian. Just as I feel weakness in my faith as a Christian or Buddhist or Pagan.

But I take comfort in knowing that all of those religions share some common values, and that those values are also supportable by arguments from good old fashioned secular humanism. Even die-hard atheists, if they are reasonable persons of good character can support values and policies that promote the welfare of the people of this planet.

December 3, 2005
4:23 pm
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mamabear
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WD
I am showing my ignorance again, but I have to say that I do not know about Galileo. Another of America's public school graduates, I am! I guess I will be looking that one up. Now that I am a "grown up" I have been going back, reading some of the classics, and trying to fill in the gaps from my "gud ol' edyukashen that I reseeved in them thar publik scools." So, what I am saying is that I know there is a lot that I do NOT know, and I don't claim to know it all, I just come across that way sometimes I am told.

I am trying to wrap my mind around this one: "It is true that sometimes I feel weakness in my faith as a Pastafarian. Just as I feel weakness in my faith as a Christian or Buddhist or Pagan. "

Would you care to explain a little? Do you have no single faith that you agree with? Is that what you meant?

And yes, I know that you love me, and I hope that you know I love you too 🙂

Even if you are a noodle head pastafarian.

December 3, 2005
4:27 pm
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mamacinnamon
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Here I am a dollar short again.

I see what you mean about teaching evolution in the church, or the dreaded spaghetti monster either. But should not the same consideration be held as far as evolution and the dreaded spahgetti monster too? And to open my mouth w/ the advance knowledge of being battered; I don't think sexuality should be taught in school either. My opinion which I am entitled to without judgment, harm, belittling, or whatever I haven't thought of.

I am like MamaBear.... If I had the patience to homeschool then I'd be doing it. But, I see problems w/ social integration once schooling is finished in many instances. I have seen most excellent homeschoolers; and I have seen homeschoolers that say if the kids help measure out the garlic for supper they did their math. Geez.

I teach my kids our religious beliefs at home and did in church for close to 25 years till I could not longer do so because of health reasons. We taught the basics of Jesus is love, love one another, etc. but hey, it was ages 2-6. Also did daycare for several years where we prayed at lunch, noticed the beautiful sunset God made, and still do. It's a rare occasion that one of my kids does not point out the sunset at night.

Now, on a lighter note, and I almost hate to tell this on myself... but when I was a child.... my sis, bros, and I would take one noodle from the chicken noodle soup when we had that for lunch and we named her Cindy noodle and would throw her around all afternoon playin find Cindy. just a funny for ya.

December 3, 2005
4:42 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi mamaC:

Well the FSM ought not to be "dreaded" unless we forget to wear the appropriate full pirate regalia while preaching HIS gospel...otherwise HE gets angry. Other than that, I think almost everybody gets to go to heaven. In fact, everybody probably goes to heaven anyway, but the worst sinners just get less beer and other perks. For he is a merciful and forgiving Spaghetti Monster. And your "Find Cindy" is probably indicative of your innate spiritual wisdom and desire to be closer to HIM, the FSM that created all of us.

December 3, 2005
5:11 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Mamabear,

No need to feel bad about not remembering Galileo's story--he has been dead for more than 360 years, you know. In short, Galileo got into trouble for teaching about something that was "just an unproven theory with many problems, and not proven fact." He got into trouble because the Church disagreed with his theories. He was later proven to be correct. Actually, any of the people who convicted him could have proved his theories correct if only they had been willing to look through a telescope.

Galileo was a scholar born in Italy in 1564.

He was an early astronomer, one of the first to use a telescope to look at the sky staring in 1609, and first published his observations in 1610in a book called “Starry Messenger.”

Galileo claimed to have seen mountains on the Moon, to have proved the Milky Way was made up of tiny stars, and to have seen four small bodies orbiting Jupiter.

In 1616 Galileo wrote the Letter to the Grand Duchess which vigorously attacked the followers of Aristotle. In this work, which he addressed to the Grand Duchess Christina of Lorraine, he argued strongly for a non-literal interpretation of Holy Scripture when the literal interpretation would contradict facts about the physical world proved by mathematical science.

(Galileo was arguing that Copernicus was correct in stating that the earcth and planets revolved around the sun, and not vice-versa.)
Pope Paul V ordered Bellarmine to have the Sacred Congregation of the Index decide on the Copernican theory. The cardinals of the Inquisition met on 24 February 1616 and took evidence from theological experts. They condemned the teachings of Copernicus.

In 1632 Galileo published a book supporting the Copernican theory, which had been declared false and illegal to teach by the church. In 1633 Galileo was tried and convicted of teaching Copernican theory (which, at the time, was “just a theory, “not proven fact) and was sentenced to life in prison. Galileo died condemned of heresy.

In 1992, 350 years after Galileo's death, Pope John Paul II gave an address on behalf of the Catholic Church in which he admitted that errors had been made by the theological advisors in the case of Galileo. He declared the Galileo case closed, but he DID NOT admit that the Church was wrong to convict Galileo on a charge of heresy because of his belief that the Earth rotates round the sun.

Extracted from:
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.a.....lileo.html

December 3, 2005
7:53 pm
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mamabear
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WD,

I like the site you directed me to, I had not yet researched Galileo. On the site, I was glad to read that even though he was sentenced, he was able to carry out his sentence outside of prison, and that he was able to write another book which got published despite his "heresy" .

I share these same beliefs of yours as well: That all men (of course, women, too)are created equal.

That we ought to revere and protect the life, health, growth and innate dignity of human beings.

That we ought to respect and protect the Ecosystems of this planet that sustain all life, including human life.

That we ought to seek and teach our children to seek wisdom and truth.

I hate it that people are so cruel and violent to others who do not share their religious views. And I hate it that people who claim to be Christians can be so horrible. Everytime I see a christian being hateful and rude and violent, it hurts me deep inside. Some of the letters by "Christians" to the creator of FSM on that website were so horrible! I can never understand how people who claim to be Christians can act in such reprehensible ways.

I am still waiting for your answers from my above posts if you have the inclination to answer. If not, hey, that's your choice and I guess I will respect that.

notwithstanding my disrespect of the almighty FSM ha ha ha, still liking that one.
mamabear

December 4, 2005
1:41 am
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Worried_Dad
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Hi, mamabear,

I think you were asking me about doubting my own faith.

Fo example, what if they universe turns out NOT to have been created by a flying spaghetti monster? Life would just not be worht living....

But seriously folks...

I see virtue in the outlooks and values of many spiritual systems. Before She the Annhilator destryed my mind, I would have considered myself to be a Gnostic Christian with leanings towards paganism and Buddhism and an appreciation for Native AMerican teachings. Today I don't know what the heck I am.

But I do know that the orthodox gospel of all religions, including their creation myths, seem to me to be just that--myths.

Or legends or allegories, not to be taken literally.

For example, much as I think that Jesus was a great moral and spiritual philosopher, I don't believe he was a Divinity. And I don't believe that he rose from the dead. I prefer the theory that he was drugged into a coma, then rescued by the Essenes, and went to live in Kashmir. In Kashmir we find a Jewish culture strangly rmoved from the rest. And in Kashmir we find a very old tomb marked as that of "Jesus, Son of Joseph, who had some trouble in Jerusalem."

Of course I could be wrong.

There are other stories from the Bible that I am pretty darned sure are incorrect.

For example, there is no way in heck that a flood covered the entire Earth in recent geological history. If it had, many things would be very different than they are now. For example, all of the earthworms would have drowned, and it seems a stretch of the imagination to believe that the one on Noah's Ark crawled from Mt. Arrarat to live everywhere they do today. Earthworms just dont crawl that fast. And they can't swim in the ocean, either.

So when religious dogma makes so many claims that seem so unlikely (even compared to the FSM theory) and also makes so many claims that appear to be patently impossible and false, and when followers of those religions act so bloody militant and unreasonable in not only defending their beliefs, but trying to have them taught as fact, getting angry when people don't agree with them....it just makes me want to throw up my hands and say...hey, what the heck.

December 4, 2005
1:46 am
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Worried_Dad
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And that emotionality and piousness of religious people is what inspires me to use pious language myself in this thread. Although as an Esoteric Reformed Pastafarian I don't belong to one of the Prostelytizing sects, I thought it would interesting to see how people reacting to me using rhetoric like "HIS Holy Day" and so forth.

May the confort of His Noodly Appendage be upon you. Ramen.

December 5, 2005
10:13 am
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mamabear
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Worried Dad,

Thanks so much for the resonse! Gave me some food for thought.

As far as the emotionality and piousness of religious people, well hey, I'm not so sure how you would gauge my reaction to your insertion of your "rhetoric" on this thread.

The thing is, that although I am a Christian and other people may measure me as a religious person, even a fanatic, I do not call myself religious. Religion, to me, is almost a bad thing. It is the relationship with God that I claim, not the "religion". For what is religion if it lacks the relationship and the desire to grow closer to God; it is simply that, religion. Something that is done just so. Well, I am not all about doing things this way and then this next, and if you don't do it like that then you are wrong. That is what bugs me about religion. How christianity is split so many different ways, and each different denomination presumes themselves to be "right".

My attitude is I hope one of love, understanding, peace, and comfort. If you are happy with who you are, then so be it. I am not one to try and convince people to change their view. However, that being said, if I see a hurting, unhappy, or angry person, I am more than willing to share my faith with you to help you have the same peace and joy that I experience. And I try to treat people with kindness no matter what their particular beliefs may be. Far be it for me to go around telling people that they are wrong and bound for hell because they do not share my particular faith. My faith is mine alone, just as my opinion is mine alone. I am willing to share with any who ask, but I try not to be pushy.

In my opinion, it is no wonder that so much of the world views "Christianity" with such scorn.

As for your belief that the world couldn't have possibly been covered by a flood because of earthworms and such, well, I think the same doubt applies to evolution. I see many flaws with it. Has it been completely disproven to the scientific community, maybe not, but many, many doubts do exist. I try to look at science and the Bible with an open mind and work them out in myself to the best ability that I have. We all don't have to agree, do we? The world will go on despite people having different faiths, ideas, opinions, religions etc.

Why can't we all just get along?

BTW, I realize that the gov't can't prohibit its employees from celebrating any religious holidays. I wouldn't really want them to. I do think they like to reap the benefits of religion while at the same time trying to remove it from everything in this country. I also believe that religion is not the only reason to take time off and that in this country we need more r and r. We are far too driven and compelled to work, work, work. I see the effect on my husband and my family, and I would love for him to have more vacation and personal days off, paid of course!

December 5, 2005
11:10 am
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eve
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What I don't get ist that there seem to be people who think that there is a conflict between science and believing in god.

Why does anything get less miraculous and wonderful, if you understand how it works? I mean nature is not like one of those trick-magicians, where the illusion is spoit as soon as you know how the trick works.

But let me tell you, learning in great detail about how the body works, how evolution works, how diseases and infections work doesn't do anything to lessen the wonder that I feel about the nature of life.

December 5, 2005
2:44 pm
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gingerleigh
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Ramen, Eve!

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