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Let's toss "bashing" around for a liittle bit
July 1, 2007
10:33 pm
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I asked a question:

"Are Christians stupid or have they really got some solid reasoning underpinning their beliefs that they are hiding very well from me?"

I assume that you were referring to this question, not a statement of fact, when you said:

"The "bashing" is in calling Christians stupid."

In desperately trying to keep an open mind on this question regarding Christian stupidity, I have asked a fundamental question in the vain hope that one day some Christian thinker of high intellectual ability will resolve what is a simple question for me.

What is this question that remains unreconciled and unanswered:

That a predatory world such as ours evidently exists is a contradiction to and irreconcilable with the belief that this same vicious, predatory world was created and allowed to exist by an omnipotent, omniscient and all good, all loving, all perfect God.

The only conclusion possible from the above if it is were to be reconcilable and not a contradiction, would be that everything that happens in this universe is in each and every sentient beings' best interests.

How can everything in this universe be in the best interests of every single sentient being who ever or will ever live?

The Christians have the opportunity yet again to show that they are far from stupid by giving a reasonable explanation of the rationality underpinning their answer to this question which is fundamental to the very core of their beliefs about the nature of their God.

So far in all the year I have been asking it no Christian has ever come forward with any sort of sensible justification for their beliefs that is not based upon the authority of the bible or blind faith based upon highly subjective emotional experiences.

With humungous amounts of patience I still persist.

But I am slowly coming ro the irrevocable conclusion that Christians have no such rationality underpinning their beliefs.

Perhaps I'm wrong and such rational underpinnings exist.

Or perhaps Christians like Jihadic suicide bombers are just plain stupid.

I don't think that this is "bashing" just because you choose to define it as such.

I call it facing up to the truth about people who cherish irrational beliefs.

Do you want me to deny what seems so obvious to me just to spare their (or your) feelings?

Would you not prefer me to investigate further the status of the Christian intellect - or lack of?

I await your answer.

July 1, 2007
11:00 pm
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Free.

You wrote:

"I have a Christian pastor staying with us M-Th. I'll see if he'd be interested in answering the questions you posed-he would be a learned theologin on this matter."

I would appreciate you doing that.

Get him to focus on:

Does he agree that this is a predatory world or not?

If not, then how does he explain the need for the predation of sentient beings upon other sentient beings for survival- a world in which humans kill and consume the body parts of other sentient beings and fight human sentient beings to survive; a world in which the weak are consumed by the strong in a food chain that extends right throughout the animal kingdom???

If he does believe that this is a predatory world then ask him to reconcile this:

That a predatory world such as ours evidently exists is a contradiction to and irreconcilable with the belief that this same vicious, predatory world was created and allowed to exist by an omnipotent, omniscient and all good, all loving, all perfect God.

Given the above, if the contradiction were to be reconcilable then would not everything that happens in this universe have of necessity to be in the best interests of each and every sentient being who ever lived or will ever live?

Is there anything, ever, that his God does not cause or permit to happen now or in the future; or has not either caused or permitted to happen in the past?

July 1, 2007
11:35 pm
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Hi Tez-

You're questions are good questions and they're fair. I'll print out your posts and see what he has to say. Personally, I'm more interested in discussion about the Gospel of St. Thomas thread, as most people think I'm insane for having ever even been interested in it, much less want to discuss it and offer their viewpoints.

But you pose good questions here. Hard questions, but good and interesting questions. I'm not optimistic about anybody, even my pastor friend, having a satisfactory answer to them.

Regarding "bashing" I simply tried to answer your question regarding whether or not you were doing it. I think that telling people they're stupid is gonna trigger the "You're bashing Tez!" response. I'm laughing as I'm typing this, and not sure why. You're just so dang adamant and persistent. Please don't take offense to that- I mean none whatsoever.

free

July 3, 2007
7:41 pm
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Free.

You said:

"I think that telling people they're stupid is gonna trigger the "You're bashing Tez!" response."

Many years ago an 'old fella', probably younger than I am now, challanged me when I accused him of mentally "bashing" me over some naive religious belief that I had then and was spruiking. He said: "Before you can get a donkey to follow the carrot on the end of a stick held in front of his nose you must first get his attention! Have I got your attention yet?" Of course I was highly insulted being called a donkey. Knowing now that he was right, I smile when I remember this event. You have retriggered that memory of how dinted my ego was then.

Over another unrelated 'run in' with him, I never uttered one single word to this old guy for three months. Even though I worked at the very next bench to him, he patiently played this highly immature 'no speakie game' until I capitulated and spoke to him first. Though he is now long dead, I still hold this guy up in my own mind in the greatest esteem. He taught me a lot over the 2 years I worked with him. He indeed was a wise old guy who had been 'through the mill' in more ways than one.

Earlier you said:

"You're just so dang adamant and persistent."

Donkey's usually are. 🙂

But on a more serious note the emboldened question that I posted on the 1-Jul-07 for your theologin friend to answer, is a very fundamental one. It must be reconciled with the very core of Christian beliefs about their God, else the whole facade will crumble.

I have read many times that the very core or the 'sine qua non' of Christian beliefs is the veracity of the resurrection of JC. If this is true then Christianity is founded on one superstitious, unsubstantiated belief alone and not rational, logical thought at all.

Of course if the Christian God does not exist as Christians believe Him to be, i.e. omnipotent, omniscient, all loving and all good then the belief in the supposed miracle of the resurrection is an irrelevancy and the whole business a tragic 'confidence trick'.

With such a tragedy being perpetrated and perpetuated upon the human race, how can I do other than be "so dang adamant and persistent".

So it's back to my above question to your theologin friend.

If he cannot or will not answer it satisfactorily for any reasonable mind to understand then he is IMHO just another of the lost sheep who aimlessly following each other without a shepherd in sight. Note - I am using Christ's analogy of sheep and the 'good shepherd'.

How come Christians aren't insulted by Christ's likening them to sheep, yet when I do they are?

July 3, 2007
7:49 pm
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Oh merciful ___

"How come Christians aren't insulted by Christ's likening them to sheep, yet when I do they are?"

I had never thought of this!

July 3, 2007
9:08 pm
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Hi Bevdee,

Interesting topic.

Just acquiring the word "flustercock" makes it worth the price of admission.

Flustercock!

Ahh haa haa haaaa!

🙂

July 3, 2007
9:39 pm
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WD

Why thank ya suh! I am guilty of making up words all the time.

I hope you've been doin' ok!

July 3, 2007
9:59 pm
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Anyway, during my college years, which took up most of my whole twenties, I was a fairly militant atheist. It was my healing from bad religious indoctrination in my youth. Or "Ute."

God, imagine WD after graduation from college. I was a hot young molecular biologist, trained in speech, debate, and history of religion.

I was a strong critic of religion back then--sometimes even a basher.

Oh, and in that regard, I was a smug little prick.

I am a better man now than I was then with regard to conversations about religion.

Mainly, because I have learned to value Relating to Others with Respect and Acceptance.

I can still talk theology, and criticize aspects of any religion.

For example, I was a heck-raiser a year or two ago here during the "AAC Evolution Wars."

If someone comes out with "God hates gays," or "Evolution is a myth," or "The Earth is only 6 thousand years old," or "Allah requires us to wage violent Jihad," then I automatically step up to bat, and give 'em what-for.

I'll myth-bust any piece of foolishness( religious or secular) that I recognize and have sufficient expertise to speak sensibly about.

But I have a fuller understanding of Humanity now than I did when I was young.

I don't ever want to take anything away from a person that inspires them or helps them to be a better Human Being.

The fact that they have a principle, whether based in religion, or in secular humanism, that motivates them to be a better person is the most important thing for me.

Which brings me to the issue of Verbal Abuse.

Let's say I was counseling Mother Theresa, all blessings and peace be upon her...

I might argue with her about the Creation story from Genesis, or the Great Flood, or the Holy Trinity, or the Virgin Birth.

But I wouldn't dream of taking away her inspiration for her vocation, which in the final analysis, is the teachings of Jesus. What if I talked her out of it?

And I would never be so disrespectful as to suggest that her desire to help people was predicated on the fact that she was delusional, ignorant, or some kind of "sheep."

July 4, 2007
2:23 am
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I just love you wd. Sometimes I just think.....

you got it all figured out.

I will too,

someday.

free

July 5, 2007
7:54 am
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Hi Free,

I receive your compliment and praise, and it makes me feel good.

And for some reason, I particularly crave approval from you.

Still though.

I am astonished and flabbergasted by what you just said. Kind of reeling from it, truth be told.

Ya gotta remember, for the last five years, it has been me wishing that I could be more like you.

And to me, we have had a kind of little brother-older sister kind of relationship. And I was comfortable with that.

So I finally said something that impressed you?!

Gotta go to Tibet and meditate on that one for a few years--be back to you soon.

Just kidding. About Tibet and the number of years.

Long-Short. What you just said makes me feel like I now can and have permission approach you as an equal, or peer, and not your dumbass little brother.

That is going to take some getting used to.

With respect and affection,

WD

p.s., Best I can tell, I have about *three* things all figured out. Which is heck and gone from having "it all" figured out.

That's three down...infinity to go.

July 5, 2007
1:12 pm
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Well wd I'm blown away!

It was I who always craved approval from you.

You've been the older brother, me the little sister. I run around starting little fires and you pop me on the butt. My little brother is scary- he's working on a PHD, learning chinese, and is well, works in something very secret let's just say.

You are always saying things that impress me. I was always gonna grow up to be just like you.

Everybody's equal yeah? Especially here.

Okay, now it's ME who's gonna head to Tibet to meditate. Perspectives, isn't it funny how they form out of nowhere only to be shattered at some unexpected moment, at which time we finally become aware that they existed.

wow.

with respect and affection towards YOU

free

July 8, 2007
4:12 am
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Hey Free--

I will give you all my technology for free--it's so easy, even a Doctor can do it.

And the price is *free.* Except for having to put up with me blathering on and on.

I hope you will continue to lend me your strength and courage and integrity.

Free, I haven't been well.

July 8, 2007
11:19 pm
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wd, how have you not been well?

What's going on?

Share.

Please.

free

July 9, 2007
8:42 pm
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Hi Free--I started talking about it over at the Embassy.

Basically, I am just stressed out, sad, and feel like crap.

July 10, 2007
11:55 am
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I'm sorry wd.

I hate it when I get overwhelmed like that.

free

July 23, 2007
7:14 am
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Hey

You know, I haven't posted an awful lot in the religious threads lately. I guess I wearied of the play and players, myself especially. Matteo said not long ago, quite eloquently, that at one time she viewed Libs as the back alley of AAC, and I tend to agree with her. It can be a free-for-all. Some of that scrapping was kind of getting to me, and I didn't like it.

The other thing that has caused me to step back and look inside myself again was my recoil from the "foul"cry of bashing. That was a really sensitive term to me, but I finally recognised it as a tool that I have seen employed by my family, in many churches, and at different times at this site.

But the variety of responses to my bashing question has caused me to wonder if understanding is attainable between those who claim to feel bashed and those accused of being bashers.

I understand the shaky feeling of a rug of beliefs being pulled out from under me, so I can be sensitive to that- sometimes. But - back to me - sometimes it was so necessary to express myself and have discussions about it. I'm grateful to those that did discuss it rationally with me.

It has been faintly and sometimes not so faintly suggested that it is insensitive and possibly verbally abusive to state an opinion such as that blind faith, unquestioning loyalty, not being familiar with the history of scripture and religion that a person claims to follow, etc. etc. etc. is thoughtless. That bothered me because it's a showstopper. I have observed that such suggestions may and sometimes do put a halt to some thoughtful discussion for a while. I mean especially on a site that addresses and provides resources and support for abuse victims, and codependency issues. We are abuse survivors and people pleasers in recovery - I assume no one wants to abuse or offend!

But, I know at some point in my life, if I continue to communicate verbally, I may probe another person's sensitivity, however unwittingly, as that person might mine. It's inevitable.

Watching the conversations in the threads die recently has sort of bashed the belief that I held about AAC -my belief that it was ok to have discussions in a a broad speectrum on a variety of topics.

I think I might be seeing the *bash cry* as a means of controlling a conversation, but that is not as troublesome to me as it was a short while ago. Because sometimes in the middle of all my triggered inner battles, there is a breakthrough for me. I now know some of my showstoppers and why they stopped the show.

Back to my observation tower. I kinda like it there- there's better reception, better signal through the noise. :~)

July 23, 2007
10:23 am
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This may seem like a stupid opinion, but I have believed for a long time that "discussion" of religious beliefs is unfruitful. Bottom line is that we believe whatever we experience. It is our experiences that shape and dictate our theology. When I observe two parties "discussing" their religious beliefs, both fervently believe they are "right" and both are trying to rationalize the other party into "seeing the light" (translation: accepting the other guy's beliefs, in lieu of their own).

I have never brought anyone to my own belief system by preaching or teaching (i.e., proselytizing). They have to actually EXPERIENCE what I share, before it has any reality for them. Which makes sense.

If I lay hands on someone and he/she actually experiences the presence and touch of God, that speaks louder than all the "words" I could ever muster up.

Does this make sense?

July 23, 2007
9:20 pm
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Strongin him

Your opinion isn't stupid. I just don't agree totally, but that may just be because of a different way of using words.

Let's see. I believe a discussion is a civilised conversation involving an exchange of information and ideas and can be beneficial, at least for me. I have an inquisitive nature. I don't believe discussions are arguments. Arguments are, IMO, when either party resorts to name calling and subtle or not so subtle manipulations to make points. Sometimes this is done so subtly a discussion can become an argument or just grind to a halt before you know what has happened!

Talk to you later, Miss Strong.

July 24, 2007
3:28 pm
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Hi bevdee- hope I don't offend you by responding on your thread.

Been watching it since it popped up hoping others would respond but they're not.

You bring up some really good points and observations. I don't think that people can be "showstoppers" though, I think that the people who stop responding have responsibility for that action.

IMO, on the religious threads, politics entered- some posters are just so livid with the "moral majority" and Bush Christianity, that a point and issue get lost. Telling people they have no brain, don't think logically, are incapable of thought, because they're Christian or Catholic or whatever- well, does anybody really think that this is gonna get a positive response? If ya tell people they're God is cruel and ugly and evil- are people going to respond nicely?

Why should this be expected?

I think it throws people on the defense and they jockey for an offensive position. People do this when they feel threatened.

I looked back over the threads. I think this is exactly what happened. One poster told another poster they were, in essence "stupid" and the ball started rolling. And got bigger and bigger, and everybody bailed, for individual reasons I'm sure.

OMW and I are having a really interesting discussion about the Gospel of St. Thomas if you're interested- please join the thread. Tez pops in here and there with the hostility thing towards Christians but it hasn't gone anywhere yet and he shares some quite insightful Buddhist things. so, the discussion continues and I'd love it if others joined.

We're all mirrors of each other, and in each mirror is an answer to one or more of the infinite questions that plague our minds. IMO

free

July 24, 2007
4:27 pm
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You've said it, bevdee: "I have an inquisitive nature. I don't believe discussions are arguments. Arguments are, IMO, when either party resorts to name calling and subtle or not so subtle manipulations to make points."

This is exactly how I feel, but for some reason both on Lib and Support Threads on AAC any difference of opinion is often seen as an argument.

free, you've said: "I don't think that people can be "showstoppers" though, I think that the people who stop responding have responsibility for that action."

I agree with the second part: I take a responsibility if I chose not to post anymore. However, I would argue (meaning: discuss) that some poster can be "showstoppers", at least to me. If instead of bringing counterarguments I am (or others are) repeatedly attacked personally at some point during the discussions by the same posters, no matter what the discussion is all about, it gets tiring after a while and the further discussion doesn't make sense to me: I am not into arguing as fighting, I am into arguing as discussing; while I have nothing against anyone personally, I might have a lot against their opinion. If more people feel the same way and the thread dies - then certainly the actions of "showstoppers" caused that reaction which resulted in ending the "show". So perhaps the responsibility should be placed on both sides.

July 24, 2007
7:32 pm
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I'm for peaceful discussions. We could all make a pact (pretend we are 13 again) and from this point forward promise to be kind and open-minded, not cruel, nor judgemental, and open and honest enough to tell the other where to go...nicely.

Any votes?

July 24, 2007
8:33 pm
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Hi OMW.

Your last post is a very wise and leaderful.

I agree.

July 24, 2007
8:46 pm
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Matteo

If I write a book, would you be my editor?

July 24, 2007
9:36 pm
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free-

In defending the bash cry, you say, "....though, I think that the people who stop responding[because of the bash cry?] have responsibility for that action."

Thank you. As should those who absorb , react to or choose to feel persecuted by the word stupid, instead of projecting that back out.

As for participation in a discussion with you and OMW, what could I possibly contribute? As you so eloquently stated to me in the "Is the Bible a collection of superstitious beliefs?"

"free

21-Jun-07

Y'all aren't athiests bevdee. You're anti-theists hiding under that umbrella. Athiests are harmless as are most Christians, Muslims, etc. But the fanatics- those who constantly and consciously attack other belief systems, they are.

those people, they are.

As to your question- oh, please. It's not question coming from you. Your belief has been made quite clear, for years now.

Free" I might feed you something to disagree with, but that might put us all back on that merry-go-round.

And frankly, free, I'm not sure I trust you. I started to answer your post (I assume) to me about tribal health care in the socialized medicine thread. After I wrote all the positives I see from PHS because of the way my tribe has handled it, and the drawbacks, I decided I did not want to reveal any of it and have it attacked, or interrogated. Or disbelieved. I could also contribute to that thread by explaining some of the things that contribute to the rising cost of health care, the shifts and the trends, the intricacies of insurance coding -but I decided after I saw the post to Matteo to back off in that thread that I don't want to participate in that style of discussion any more. That's a choice I take full responsibility for. I suspect others have, too.

Today you said "I think this is exactly what happened.
One poster told another poster they were, in essence "stupid" and the ball started rolling.
" Yeah, I remember.

I will post this again Recovering from Religions

"free

28-Jun-07

Tez

were you talking to me in your last post? Well I guess so, as I looked through the thread and I did ask that question.

In all honesty Tez, I don't believe that. I don't believe any of the "religions" or non-religions are a disease. or maybe what I should say is "belief systems."

What I don't like is fanaticism, and I tried to play the part to give you and other posters something back. I have seen what I percieve as fanaticism. Didn't work so great though. I've just made alot of enemies or so it seems. Well, live and learn I say. Sometimes silence is just- best.

I've never shared my religious or spiritual beliefs here.

Well everyone else has, so I guess I could. I'm a gnostic. Not willing to share what type. I have noticed numerous posters "shoveling" me into a category for standing up against something. Different things, over time, not just as of late. I can wage a battle in different areas with the same people and be called different things by the same people-things that contradict depending on the battle and with whom.

I can make a statement about religious history and have it shot down-ridiculed if you will, by what appears to be a mob. I can cause alot of shit. so can you Tez, and you do. You are fascinating to watch, gotta give you that.

It has been quite interesting.

But I'm done. I've learned what I had originally set out to learn.

For now- back to my Zen spot.

Free "

And my response which you claimed not to understand.

"bevdee

28-Jun-07

Hey Free

I'm glad you posted this. *and I tried to play the part to give you and other posters something back* and later this *I can cause alot of shit. so can you Tez, and you do. You are fascinating to watch, gotta give you that.* Because in the aftermath of my post about my grampa, I started having some suspicions.

In the early part of the Is the Bible.... superstition thread, you entered to defend OMW from the meanness of Tez and me. This is not the first time,though, and I thought, well she might have triggers about being thought or called stupid. I suspected that it was Tez you were trying to draw out with your statements and repeated posts to him.

*I can wage a battle in different areas * I asked you once before if you ever wearied of arguing and you would not answer me because you said something like ~~not now my question is for Tez~~. (If God's so good... thread)

I'm relieved in a way, though. I was getting kind of concerned for you, and that's all codependent of me.

If this was all contrived, you did a great job because until the other day, I thought you were foaming at the mouth insane with the conflicting stuff you were putting out there.

Now, from this post- if you are to be believed?

You were just deliberately being insincere.

Manipulating the situation so you could learn.

All the best to you free. "
Maybe you are just playing that gospel of thomas back? It's hard for me to know with those recent posts.

The Libs threads are pretty theistic oriented now. The atheism and antitheism is gone. The agnostics are quiet. There shouldn't be any feelings of persecution, or insulted intelligence.

I have learned a lot about religion, myths, the mythology of religion, superstition, fear , blah blah blah. I have really enjoyed it. I'll contemplate these lessons and reach for further learning, but I won't contribute to the type of wildfires that erupt here - not anymore.

See ya

July 24, 2007
10:00 pm
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Do you really want to do this bevdee? do you really want to cut and paste and throw rocks and mud?

I don't.

It's apparent that I've hurt you and for that I am sorry. You're not innocent either.

There has been alot of reacting, I know I have and I'm working on not doing that.

I invited you to join that thread because I like other people's insight.

It was a peaceful invitation, not an attack or an invitation for one.

And still is.

I like OMW's suggestion. I vote for that.

free

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