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Let's toss "bashing" around for a liittle bit
June 26, 2007
9:11 pm
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bevdee
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According to Wiktionary- Bashing may refer to one of the following:
The pejorative bashing implies excessive or unwarranted criticism on a subject, group or individual.

A subtle way of referring to masturbation.-

Yeah, I can see how too much of that first definition might be construed as getting off, some form of mental jerking off, or a flustercuck.

But on this forum? I think the term is very subjective. My perception of and sensitivity to bashing of a particular subject might be different than that of someone with a different perspective or beliefs.

What might be a sensitive subject or create fear to one person might not be to another, because of a discrepancy of beliefs. My particular sensitivity might be different than that of someone else, due to indoctrination, or lack of it.

I may have some confusion about this site and the "sides" of the site . While it is ok on Libs, though not Support to discuss religion, I try to use the discussions here to gain understanding about other folks beliefs and perspectives, and to help me to look into myself. To help me to examine my belief system, and how religion and patriotism and the use or misuse of it makes me feel. Yet, talking about it has been called "crying foul", and responding to it has been called bashing. When this has happened, my first response to this is to say- but hey you do this too, and here is how (insert cut/paste), but I have to ask myself if further participation in a thread that has asked for or turned away from one of thoughtful discussion to just plain argumentative bloodletting is going to be a valuable enough lesson to me to generate any awareness and growth, and if it is my competitive spirit, needing to be right. Especially if I really don't think lines of communication will ever become any clearer with the person I am considering engaging in discussion or argument with.

And when the bash card is played, it can kill the thread, and the flow of the discussion. Or it just starts a flame war, and there is a lot of raw and sometimes negative emotion from that, too. I suppose that the thread might serve as an outlet in that way, but can be distressing as well.

See, I believe that when we fear being accused of "religion bashing", we are buying into an old trap. In my opinion, advocates of religion have poisoned healthy discussion or exchange of ideas about religion by passing off this concept that, from jump street, religious claims must be treated with a kinder and gentler type of criticism than that leveled at other types of belief systems.

Religion is so entrenched in our society that its proponents have been able to foist off onto popular culture the notion that religion always deserves kid glove treatment. Religious doctrines should not be entitled to armor that is thicker than that of any other doctrine. Especially in this country.

June 26, 2007
9:22 pm
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BevDee

Well said!

Can you imagine what would happen if as a politician, I stood up and chanted "Om mani padme hum ..." or some other non-Christian prayer before the legislative sessions started?

I'd be shouted down and severely criticized. But verbalizing the Lord's Prayer at that time is taken for granted as being inoffensive when in fact it is far from it for many of us non-Christians. If the US and Australian governments were truly secular then this Christian domination of our legislatures would not occur. It is so taken for granted that it goes unnoticed by Christians in their arrogance.

Boyo, would the Christians bleat if an Islamic prayer was concurrently recited at such times as well.

June 26, 2007
9:51 pm
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Hey Tez

Thanks. I know what you mean about the legislative praying. I don't really have a problem with that, although I too find it galling and at odds with the separation of Church and State premise that this country was built on. As long as the praying doesn't take too long. After all, those guys are on my dime. When I found out Clinton was diddling Monica in the White House- you know- swishing her sweet with a little cigar? It made me mad- that was my money paying both of them!!!

I have no problem with any politician, representing me as an American, practicing any religion, as long as his beliefs do not interfere with his ability to serve me in the job my athiest taxes are paying him to do. But I would have a problem with that politician assuming that I was of his faith, and calling on me to serve my country based on that assumption. I wonder how Americans of other faiths would feel if a person of the HIndu or Islam faith (not singling anoyone out) would feel if those religious customs were implemented into mainstream patriotism.

I was reading about France and I read that they do not record religion or denomination in the national census. I found that very interesting. I also read the other day- and I can't remember where- probably Yahoo- that a French journalistic cartoonist was fired for printing a cartoon of a Muslim person wearing a turban in the shape of a bomb with a fuse. There is zero tolerance for religious intolerance. That's pretty cool.

June 26, 2007
10:55 pm
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Bev,

I also enjoy discussions about religion/theology. But it seems that "the other side" doesn't approach the discussion from the standpoint of wanting to learn. When they don't even bother to read what someone has taken the time to write and then shoot from the hip, it doesn't make for a well-balanced discussion or debate. I actually want to hear the basis for the various belief systems. Why they believe what they do, what they base it on ... whether they interpret things literally or are only interested in trying to find meaning and purpose in the scriptures.

It does bother me that the term atheist is so misunderstood and misused. And the misperception that atheists have no basic moral values and are somehow uncivilized evildoers, is so drummed into heads of religious folk that nothing anyone says or does, makes any difference.

Most people have no earthly idea that I'm atheist. They automatically assume I'm a Christian simply because they are. I don't act any different than they do. I'm probably more honest in many ways than many of them. They think I'm a good person and respect me. But I wonder if their opinion of me would plummet if I told them I was a nonbeliever. I have a feeling it would.

I think that beliefs and nonbeliefs are very personal matters. These matters do not belong in the public arena at all, thus the separation of church and state. I think debates are healthy purely because it makes people think and examine their own belief system. The bashing comes from those who react emotionally and get off topic, not sticking to facts and making stuff up off the top of their heads and trying to pass it off as fact. That's why these discussions become so frustrating. And also why I shy away from commenting on them most of the time. Matteo has especially written some very sound, logical posts in this forum and it still mystifies me how others cannot or will not attempt to understand the reasoning in them. It doesn't matter whether anyone agrees, just that they try to understand someone else's stance. Guess that's why we still have religious wars going on and it's 2007.

June 26, 2007
11:13 pm
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Loralei

I have thought that I perceived confusion thrown into the discussions. I can't figure if it is deliberate or innate.

I just let people in my physical world assume I am a "godly" person. Not honest, but less strenuous. I draw the line, though, at saying "amen" to agree with something someone says, or "praise the lord" or "bless god" at good news.

Is this dialogue "bashing"? Or do you think the use of the word is just for the purpose of off-putting a conversation that is painful or fearful to the person using the term.

June 27, 2007
12:32 am
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I think it is off-putting the conversation, and it works! Thank you, guys, I enjoyed this conversation very much... to a certain point, and I didn't see any bashing or name calling to a certain point either, which bothers me because there shouldn't be any place for abuse on AAC, no matter what side of it. It is very different to say to someone that their ideas are not making any sense and prove your point, in opposition to telling someone that they are (cut/paste) - I like that! but for some it is very hard to make that distinction. Why is that? Things that make you go: hmmm...

Bevdee - your post about patriotism illustrated exactly what I was trying to say, and it was a really chilling experience, reading that there were "no more burning crosses" in your town and that people were lynched not so long ago (by atheists or Christians??) and how divided is your town.

As I stated earlier, I am not atheist, I believe in God, but I am against religion in any shape or form, in Durkheim's understanding of religion. Fanaticism is always dangerous, be that associated with dogma, ideology or soccer fans. I strongly believe in community and humanity but only when free thinking is permitted and encouraged.

June 27, 2007
1:53 am
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Matteo

Thanks for your post. I don't know what to call myself. I really think most religions are thought-suppressing. I can't say if I believe in a god. I'm kind of holding out for goddess, but so far, she hasn't revealed herself to me. :~)

Thanks for your feedback on the other posts. Mmm- those white men that did the lynchings? My guess is professing christian. White men. There weren't alot of atheists running around discussing it in the 50s- in the McCarthy era. There was a town about 30 miles out that actually had a sign posted next to the city limit sign that said "N***er don't let the sun go down on your ass". And they meant that shit. Another town a little north had a segregated movie theater until 1979, and the African Americans had to sit in the balcony. Unbelievable. I think it's really hard to fathom, especially if you don't share the same geography. Living in the South is different, and no one wants to talk about that aspect of our "culture". The christians sure won't talk about that shameful history. Someday I will be able to get all my thoughts about it out. Someday.

Thank you for your post, Matteo.

June 27, 2007
6:46 pm
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Great posts folks, one and all - fine reading.

June 27, 2007
7:03 pm
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Bevdee.

On the 26-Jun-07 you wrote:

"I wonder how Americans of other faiths would feel if a person of the HIndu or Islam faith (not singling anyone out) would feel if those religious customs were implemented into mainstream patriotism."

Yes, I wonder about that too. Can you imagine what would happen to any Muslim politician who repeatedly suffixed his statements with "Allah Ackbar"?

Can you imagine what would happen to any atheistic politician who repeatedly suffixed his statements with "God is dead long live rational thought"?

Can you imagine what would happen to any Hindu politician who repeatedly suffixed his statements with "Om shanti" or "Namaste"?

He/she would be politely asked to desist from imposing his religious presumptivity upon the ears of the public.

Yet if I stand up and protest about getting fed such insults to my intelligence day in day out then the one-eyed, blinkered perpetrators bleat like hell accuse me of "bashing" their religious sensitivities.

Who's bashing who?

Its not a one way street - what's good for the goose, is good for the gander.

June 27, 2007
7:08 pm
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hi folks

I think the term bashing is not a card at all.
it is simply calling a spade a spade if you can pardon the pun.

jv

June 27, 2007
7:36 pm
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I don't think it's a card either.

What do y'all think bashing is? Maybe what I think is bashing isn't what somebody else thinks is bashing, and so forth.

free

June 27, 2007
8:37 pm
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BASHING as it were, is not ONLY disagreement, or fuming over another's belief system...it is being CONDESCENDING in speech. Granted, writing does not allow body language or voice tones, but no one should be treated as if they do not know anything.

What I have noticed is that everyone talks from themselves. Bevdee, you seem open to learning from everyone, where others, me included, are set in their belief system...Religion is NOT something that can be discussed rationally here it seems, unless you are of the same heart and mind as the other. We are ALL different in that respect here. It is like Zinnie said on another thread...'Religion is like underwear, it's personal'...and I can't remember the rest of that quote....but it makes sense.

"Confusion thrown in" I see that as well here, only it just works for anyone who isn't grounded in their own belief system. I think it is ok to be grounded in one's own belief system.

Christians (most) are great people...the most loving and forgiving people nad successful people that I know anyway, but they certainly are not perfect by any means.

June 27, 2007
8:42 pm
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bevdee,

Why do you let people think you are a 'godly' person?

Loralei,
great post above, I like what you said about if a non-believer knew you were an athiest, their opinion would plummet...I would hope not, that would be so self-righteous...see that is a big problem, when a so-called Christian begins to 'judge' someone else for thier beliefs...I don't know any like that, at all.

June 27, 2007
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Matteo
27-Jun-07

"... It is very different to say to someone that their ideas are not making any sense and prove your point, in opposition to telling someone that they are (cut/paste) - I like that! but for some it is very hard to make that distinction. Why is that? Things that make you go: hmmm..."

That's a breath of fresh air to see written for all to read. I endorse that statement to the fullest.

You said:

"... I am not atheist, I believe in God, but I am against religion in any shape or form, in Durkheim's understanding of religion. Fanaticism is always dangerous, be that associated with dogma, ideology or soccer fans. I strongly believe in community and humanity but only when free thinking is permitted and encouraged."

Contrary to what at least one person on another thread seems to think, I find the above statement not in the least objectionable. In fact I sense that behind lies an intellect that has exercised its abilities far more than the average person.

On a personal level, I am not an anti-theist. I doubt that your kind of theist gangs together in churches to form self-indoctrinating congregations that perpetuate superstition throughout the land any more than atheists do.

However, I am certainly anti-Christian. Christians band together in their churches empowering their priests, ministers, elders or whatever they call them to mobilize their political clout to impose their beliefs on others through legislation and through other more subtle yet no less invasive propagandizing mental brainwashing techniques such as EWTN, etc.

The guy next door came into my workshop and asked me to cut up several lengths of steel. I did so at my expense in time, electricity, wear and tear on my machine and cut off wheels. Then when the job was completely finished, to justify the 'big ask' he said: "Oh. I thought you might like to know that this is going to a good cause". I said: "Oh - it is?" thinking he was referring to the steelwork going into a building for some charitable organization. "Yea." says he, "It's going to form a huge neon lighted cross for my local church." I could have spewed my guts up on the spot - rich fat cat Christians bludging of me to propagate their virus.

I gave him short shrift and that's the last 'con job' this deceitful Christian ever pulls on me. Fancy using me to propagate his virus! The thickwitted nerve of him automatically presuming I would want to propagate his nonsense.

No wonder I'm anti-Christian.

June 27, 2007
10:38 pm
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OMW - you ask "bevdee,

Why do you let people think you are a 'godly' person?" Good question.

Well. I don't pretend to be pious or anything. I don't wear cross jewelry or sport a bible around or have a fish on the bumper of my car. I just don't disabuse people of the assumption that I believe in the godman that they do. As I said in the post to Matteo "Not honest, but less strenuous."

Interestingly, there are quite a few Muslim people I work with in Dallas, and they are totally unconcerned that I don't believe in a religion. None of them have ever tried to convert me, and they don't talk about their religion or faith at work the way alot of the christians do. One guy buys my breakfast for me every time I work a day shift. A very gentle, polite soul.

I don't shout my "ungodliness" from the rooftop, and it's not important to convince my family or friends. However, I do buck up to them occasionally when I feel harassed to go to church. I go once or twice a year to hear my daddy preach and my stepmother sing, and that is only because it means so much to him to see me in the congregation.

In my experience, in my physical life, (and now sometimes here on AAC), when I say I don't believe in the bible and maybe not the godman? My statements are met with disbelief or anger and arguments meant to convince me. It's just easier to keep my mouth shut most of the time.

(((OMW)))

June 28, 2007
1:08 pm
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bevdee,
What you wrote is interesting, thank you for sharing it.

I wonder though, is it that you do not really believe, or that you are questioning and pursuing and inquiring of all other thoughts at this time?

June 28, 2007
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Tez,
Are you a welder by trade?

June 28, 2007
1:38 pm
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OMW

OMW

No- I really believe, I always have - I have just been messing with yall to get a reaction. I get so bored up here in the penitentiary.

Just Kidding!!

Miss OMW - Once again, we get off the subject of a thread, but I will answer this question here as I have all the other times in all the other threads.

I really don't believe in all that.

I do not believe in a male creator/deity that denies that a woman is needed in the creation process. In a deity and religion that requires the subjugation of women for a harmonious natural order of things. I do not believe in religion. I don't believe in it any more than I believe in the mythology I have been reading (again, since I haven't read it since high school and college), and I believe, as I did then, that mythology was man's way of explaining his environment and that religion as we know it today was "borrowed" from mythology.

I concede that Jesus as a regular born man, born from a union of a flesh and blood man and a flesh and blood woman might have lived, and he might have said some cool stuff, and that stuff might have generated some change in the staus quo, but there is no real evidence that he lived. No tomb, bones, DNA- because, according to that bible, he floated away.

Now I have a question and this may tie this post to the thread. Do you believe that my honest expression of my disbelief of the bible and its characters- the contradictions that abound in the bible and cannot be explained logically, my total incredulity at the fantastic silly stories- bashes your belief? Is that Christian bashing? Bible bashing?

June 28, 2007
3:27 pm
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bevdee,
No I don't think your honest expression of your beliefs bash my beliefs. I think everyone is free to choose, as well as express how they believe. So no, to me it isn't Christian bashing. Bible bashing, still your right to express your opinion but I also see it as a fine line. If there are those here who see the Bible as the Word of God, then it could become bible bashing. When facts for you and facts for someone else come into question, I think we all would do well to be careful of how we express our beliefs. Some end up angry, some accuse, some verbally beat up others, and this is unnecessary. It would do well for us to say something like, "I disagree with you there because this is what I believe." Too many times we end up saying instead, "All Christians are pigs, so you must be one too!"

We all do our own form of bashing. To be honest I take offense to your 'godman' term because to me it takes this gigantic person in my life, who has done so much for me, and is disrespectful of the God that I know. On the other hand, it is your expression and name you give God, so in that sense it is ok. I don't judge you for it, I just cringe when I read it! 🙂

I respect others beliefs and have learned here that I NEED to hear and listen to people. I think I have come a long way since my steamroller Christian posting days a couple of years ago, but I still have a ways to go. I am grounded, I know that, I believe with all of my heart and nothing I read here, or anywhere will ever convince me God does not exist....but I am learning that there are many who do not even want to hear the name of God. SO I need to hear and listen, and not see people here or anywhere through my own perceptions. It is now very important for me to learn NOT to impose my thoughts, just share them.

There are several people on AAC, and you are one of them..and Zinnie, mamacinnamon, and some others who can be very gracious in their speech towards others. This is where I am at....this is what I want to learn.

I think it's great that you go to your dad's church...so he still preaches? You know they probably pray for you don't you? Not to compare you to my son Chris, but he has walked away, but he NEEDED to, but he'll be back, I know it. Many beleivers question, even I went through a period, where I thought, 'How in the heck am I suppose to do all of this stuff I am told to do in the Bible, is this a cruel joke?!!!"....but then I realized what it meant for me.

So in conclusion, I either think that we all could be kinder to one another, as there is a way to speak and not hurt or try to destroy, or push away....or just accept evryone the way they are and get on with it.

June 28, 2007
3:39 pm
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"I think it's great that you go to your dad's church...so he still preaches? You know they probably pray for you don't you?" There are two dads. My daddy has been ministering for about 5 years, since he retired, and my stepdad is a retired chaplain and does not preach anymore. The chaplain is the bible historian that talked to me about scripture without trying to convert me. Daddy kind of pounds the bible for emphasis.

I only go twice a year, OMW, if that, and I sit at the back, because I don't want any holy water to accidentally touch me! just kidding again!! Once or twice a year, and if someone wants to give me "airtime", that's their business. My opinion is that "prayer" is like positive energy. Kinda, maybe.

June 28, 2007
5:42 pm
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Back again

OMW thank you. Your post got me thinking. Back to the topic - Bashing is in the eye of the beholder. "Too many times we end up saying instead, "All Christians are pigs, so you must be one too!" "

Or atheists are terrorists and fanatics. Muslims are evil. Athiests are evil. Actually there was a thread on this side not too long ago about a Christian book that said BPDs and other mental illnesses were pigs and demonic and had to be cast out. Or some stuff like that. I thought that was real baaad.

I cringe when I perceive Islam or Muslim bashing. Because my BIL, the father of my sister’s babies is a wonderful man and a much nicer man than many of the Xtians I know. He does not practice his religion. It's either not an issue, or something he abandoned in self-preservation, I'm not sure. He had such a hard time in the workforce even after he graduated at the top of his class at University. He anglicized his name, he kept his hair trimmed very short, and stayed out of the sun. He was so worried that he would not be able to get a job in the Midwest to support his new family. He did not want to move to NY, Chicago, LA or any larger cities that would take his wife and daughter away from their gramma, my mom. Because he values family, and his were still in Egypt at that time. He knew he was judged solely on his appearance, ethnicity, and assumptions about his religion. Not on his abilities, his merit, his heart. He is unfailingly courteous to my daddy when he gets to preaching about accepting Jesus Christ as his saviour or the price of hell that he will pay. Daddy looks at him and says "I wanna see you in heaven, son." It took 5 years, but my sister and I were finally able to persuade my daddy to stop pronouncing Arab as AyRab. He didn't know, he listened to christian broadcasts and absorbed what was being taught from those platforms. Or from that old Ray Stevens song Ahab the Ayrab- I don't know. At least he finally stopped.

My BIL- this is a man that sat and sobbed when one of my cousins was killed on his motorcycle 3 months shy of completing med school. A man that won't allow his daughters to tease each other for too long, for worry that they might hurt each other's feelings. His sister is a doctor now, and she works at a free clinic and helps battered and impoverished women with reproductive issues. She and her husband financially support their mother and attend their worship with her.

I cringe for my nice Pakistani friend at work that buys my breakfast and kind of puts his palms together and smiles each time he sees me. Like- respect. He treats everyone that way. For the nice Iraqi refugees I know in Dallas, that still practice their religion and are happy to be free of that leadership. They pay taxes to the US for the destruction of their homeland.

I cringe when I perceive judgment or morality lessons given in the form of advice on Support. Honestly, I don't respond to everything all the time.

Anyway, I have to tell you that I started to cringe when you said "You know they probably pray for you don't you?" - Because people in my life would say that to me to get me to "act right". Or as a way of getting the last word in an argument. When they were at a loss for words, they would whip out the old prayer card. I'm not saying I perceived you as doing that, OMW. But reading those words reminded me because it's what my mom and daddy both did. They would say that "You're sad, I'll be praying for you" with that prissy snissy look. Do you know that one? Eyebrows raised, head cocked forward condescendingly, lips pursed in a tight smile. Benevolent. Dismissive.

But if being prayed for means that someone is projecting their positive thoughts or wishful thinking out into the universe for me, that's ok. There's no harm in that. There's just no godman to hear it. :~)

June 28, 2007
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bevdee,

This last post of your's really touched my heart. Thank you. You are very open, and kind, and see people for who they are, and for how valuable they are. That is a true gift. You sort of remind me of my sister, and my youngest son.

You asked if I know the "I'll be praying for you'snuff...only as a child do I know that one. Anyone that volunteers to pray for me now does it because they love me, and I say 'RIGHT ON!'...I take all of the prayer I can get!! :), and I pray for many people as well too. And in a way I suppose I to beleive it is positive energy, as I believe we are all made of energy. But I believe God hears me. 🙂

You have a beautiful spirit. It is great that you do not judge these people that you come in contact with each day. I think I do finally see what you believe, and although different from some of my beliefs, I don't perceive them as I once did.

take care, I am off for the weekend. My middle son has just recently announced that he is moving to CO tomorrow with his wife and my ONLY granddaughter....I will miss them so much, but then it will be a good excuse to get out of Vegas at times and go to visit. Life can turn on a dime!

hugs to you, have a great weekend.

omw

June 28, 2007
11:18 pm
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I am typing this with great trepidation. I have been following the religion and similar threads for awhile. Because of my background (not being brought up in a church), I know little about this subject. I am unsure of my own beliefs. I really enjoy reading all of the different perspectives and then pondering them in my mind. I have learned and questioned so much that I have learned here and I am thankful for all of the input.

I just keep thinking this...everyone has their beliefs, but what are they based on? their upbringing? events in their past? knowledge obtained?, more or a combination? Then I wonder, where does the knowledge come from...is it factual or someone else's beliefs that were formulated earlier? It just seems to me that these are beliefs and yes, some of you feel very strongly about them.

My reason for writing this is what is happening on these threads. I don't understand why people are not treating other people's beliefs with respect. They are that, their beliefs. Lately, I feel like I am in a court of law observing defensive and offensive moves. What purpose does that serve? Maybe I am wrong, are the threads to convince others of their beliefs or educate?

gg

June 30, 2007
1:17 am
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ggfred4

You asked:

"... are the threads to convince others of their beliefs or educate?"

I cannot speak for others but only for my own motives which are not always crystal clear to me.

I have seen so many seemingly intelligent people profess such irrational beliefs and yet behave so differently.

I have seen the laws of our land created and changed under the influence of such illfounded beliefs.

"All that is required for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing."

But who and what is evil? This is a very subjective judgement to make.

Because I have seen how much suffering that it has caused, I have made such a subjective judgment about the evils of superstition and ignorance.

But what diferentiates enlightenment from ignorance?

Now we are in a very grey area, one that requires much research.

Christians, Muslims and other religions who seem to have a powerful influence on governments by lobbying for what they class as being 'good' for us, don't seem to be able to qualify the basis for this good when 'push comes to shove'. Adolf Hither was raised a Roman Catholic. Joseph Stalin was raised as a Christian and trained for the Russian Orthodox priesthood. Both undoubtedly thought that they were doing 'good' for their country.

Being a born again self-doubter, I always give the benefit of the doubt to others and then seek out what it is that justifies their faith in the veracity in their beliefs.

As the years go by, more and more I am finding that there is no basis for this blind faith in silly dogma only an emotional clinging to the security of some vague "faith of our[their] fathers, living still in spite of dungeon fire and sword." (Catholic hymn)

Yet being the eternal optimist I still push and probe in the vain hope that one day some Christian thinker of high intellectual ability will resolve what is a simple issue for me but a major contradiction for them.

What is this contradiction:

That a predatory world such as ours evidently exists is a contradiction to and irreconcilable with the belief that this same vicious, predatory world was created and allowed to exist by an omnipotent, omniscient and all good, all loving, all perfect God.

The only conclusion possible from the above if it is were to be reconcilable and not a contradiction, would be that all that happens in this universe is in every sentient beings best interests.

But how can rape be in a woman's best interests?

How can being sodomized against his will by a huge six foot six powerful, male in a jail cell be in the best interests of a puny youth's rectum.

How can the horrific experiences of the Jews in Auschwitz be in their best interests?

How can making a Chinese father rape his own daughter in Nanking while his wife and his daughter's mother is forced to watch, in order to satisfy the sadistic, cruel lust of Japanese soldiers, be in the father's, mother's and the daughter's best interests?

All these things and millions more have happened and will happen in the future.

For us to eat meat, animals must die in cruel circumstances. The whole predatory food chain is fundamentally based upon the stronger consuming the weaker in a sequence that is inherent in the design.

Who designed this predatory world? Hmmm!

Now to the crux of this problem. To reconcile this huge dilemma, primitive tribal Jews came up with a fable about Adam and Eve and a serpent that can talk because he is a 'fallen' angel in disguise. Now this snake tempts Eve to first eat the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil which god forbade them to do. Low and behold nothing happened. So out of feelings of guilt she gets Adam to also eat the fruit too. Hmmm!

Now this omniscient God who knew that this would happen prior to creating Adam and Eve in the first place went ahead and created them both with the propensity to disobey him.

Now this supposedly just all merciful, all loving all powerful God blows a fuse and condemns not only Adam, Eve all her offspring, including all the animals to mortality and predation for millions of years or until we destroy the planet whichever comes sooner.

But then this same God decides to send down a Godman to earth to show how much he loves us humans and all the rest of the animals. So this God gets the Jews and the Romans to colude in butchering this Godman, his only son, by having him flogged mercilessly half to death and then having him hanged nailed to a Roman cross in agony to reconcile us to this God! Wow! If this God will do this to his own son to reconcile His own human design cockup what will he do to those who blunder on their own cognizance under the influence of yet another of God's cockups called Satan?

Whoops!! There's both an image problem and/or a logical difficulty here. Isn't there? Can anyone spot them?

Or have I misinterpreted Genesis and what I was so thoroughly taught with a Christian brother's strap? Which way is it?

Does this help to answer your question ggfred4?

Are Christians stupid or have they really got some solid reasoning underpinning their beliefs that they are hiding very well from me?

Or are they just 'emotional tripping' on the security that the herd instinct provides?

Now where is the abuse and bashing in this post of mine above?

I have written only legitimate, rational questions down tn regard to my paraphrasing of Christian beliefs.

Or is this post considered abusive and bashing just because Christians can't find reasonable answers for these questions?

Shouldn't I raise these sticky, awkward doctrinal issues when unsolicited Christianity is spruiked openly here and elsewhere?

Don't Christians wan't these questions posed?

Isn't there a learned theologin out there anywhere who has rational answers for these questions?

July 1, 2007
3:29 pm
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Hi Tez

The "bashing" is in calling Christians stupid.

They too, are in search of the truth, but they've taken a different path than you have. They may not have answers to your questions, yes, but you probably don't have answers to all of theirs either.

That doesn't make anybody stupid.

Christians struggle I'm sure with the things you have pointed out, but what they DO understand, to them, is a key to salvation, something they seek. That key is more important than conflicts you have presented.

I have a Christian pastor staying with us M-Th. I'll see if he'd be interested in answering the questions you posed-he would be a learned theologin on this matter.

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