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kroika's essay: Pornography and Sexual Health
October 14, 2007
2:30 am
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Worried_Dad
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My day of reckoning will come when Kroika critiques my domestic violence paper. I've delayed re-posting it because I know I have karma coming! 🙂

October 14, 2007
11:18 am
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MsGuided
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WD

I hope it doesn't parrot the stance of Henry Markow!?

I would be very interested in reading that paper on domestic violence..re-posting? Don't make me search the archives. re-post SOON!

Dominance is part of natural law. The Alpha Males and Alpha females are there for a pupose. Humans have totally stifled the latter and that needs to change . Why fear it? Balanace is the answer.

October 14, 2007
4:26 pm
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That's right, WD: Instant Karma's gonna get you, gonna knock you on the head.... better get yourself togethter.... etc.

October 14, 2007
4:37 pm
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Hi MsGuided,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I don't really know what to say about the pubic hair-shaving. Fashion trends come and go, and what may have upset feminists in the 70's may barely raise any eyebrows today.

I do think though, that there are fashion trends exaggerating the sexuality of young children and that is why I think the line between adult and child porn is not as thick and impermeable as you seem to think. There was a recent news item here about a junior highschool, I think it was, that had a "pimp and ho" theme dance. I just think it's all part of a picture of a society that is directing its energy in places that do not increase our chances of survival as a species.

You ask, "Where do we draw the line between deviance, abuse and healthy sexuality?" and I guess that the more work a person has done on how their sexuality has been skewed, as you put it, the more likely they are to be able to perceive that line with some confidence.

Sugar Lump, thanks for your comments too. I'm glad you found the paper valuable.

Oops, forgot to put the :o) after my little musical response to you, WD. I'm just joshin' ya.

October 16, 2007
11:17 pm
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Since I completed writing the paper I posted at the beginning of this thread, a newer book by Robert Jensen has become available. For anyone interested, it is called Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity and is available from South End Press, Cambridge MA.

Also, an article by Jensen called The Consequences of the Death of Empathy can be read online at http://www.commondreams.org/vi.....030-26.htm. It's not specifically about pornography but includes a conversation he had with a young man about pornography. For your interest and reflection.

October 17, 2007
1:44 am
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Hi Kroiksters,

Like I said, the "porn issue" is an entry to some more interesting topics.

MsGuided and you have brought up an ancient theme related to human sexuality, that I think is really interesting and valuable:

"Where do we draw the line between deviance, abuse and healthy sexuality?"

I would like to offer a first cut at clearing up that question.

I'll draw a very clear line separating abuse from the mix.

I think that now, in the 21st century, we have the benefit of being able to draw on the teachings of the previous 3000 years of spiritual teachers like Krishna, Buddha, and Jesus, but we also have modern philosophy and medicine to inform us.

Abuse stands out regardless of the context. Abuse is a relational phenomenon characterized by unilateral imposition of one person's will and power over and against the desires and well-being of others. Strictly speaking, "Abuse" is *always* non-consensual, and it is *always* harmful.

Abuse is a special circumstance that can manifest in any kind of human interaction, including sexual interactions.

So I think it is pretty easy to separate the "special" circumstance of abuse from the general issue of what constitutes "normal, healthy" versus "deviant, unhealthy" sexuality.

Abuse is a worthwhile topic. And I want to distinguish that topic from another topic which has to do with beliefs, attitudes, and desires of the large majority of people who want to and choose to have their relationships and their lives be about CONSENSUAL activities.

I call present two wonderful teachers.

The first teacher I call present is the very wise, kindly and beautiful Dr. Ruth Westheimer.

I fondly recall the advertisements for Dr. Ruth's game called "Great Sex!" I paraphrase to the best of my memory. In that TV spot, some couples are playing the board game, and a woman reminds her husband "This game is about 'mutual' pleasure!"

Mutuality is the diagnostic that lets us rule out Abuse.

Next, I call present another teacher. I used to listen to a folksy acapella singing group called "Women, Women, and Song." They were a trio of lesbian, middle-aged women, and they were really, really good singers. ANd they are very wise and good women.

They published a happy little song called "The Way of Sex" that for me, really functions as an "instruction manual" for how to be at peace with the fact that there are about as many different "Healthy" expressions of human sexuality as there are human beings. Some people are celibate, and they love being that way, and it is a good path for them. Some people choose to have only one lover for their entire lives, and that is a good path for them. Some people choose to have many partners, and that is a good path for them. Some people fall in love with and are attracted to people of the opposite or same gender--and that is a good path for them.

I like to think of myself as a pretty modern, open-minded, and liberal person. But when it comes to sex, I have been faced many, many times with discovering that when it comes to *other people's* sexuality, I am not as open-minded or accepting as I think I am and wish I was.

For example, it creeps me out a little bit that the young woman making me coffee and serving me a croissant at 7 am was watching internet porn from 5 am to 6 am.

It is unnerving to me to discover that my brilliant, talented supermodel younger sister is NOT being beaten by her boyfriend--she just likes as she puts it "rough sex." That's just way more information than I was ready to hear from my little sister, if you know what I mean.

I was almost married, two-ish years ago. It was slightly alarming to me that my beautiful, talented fiancee really, really wanted and seemed to need me to sometimes...tie her hands during sex and spank her, and I felt bad because I couldn't bring myself to spank her as hard as she wanted to be spanked.

Mind you, I'll do almost anything that my Queen wants to make her happy--in bed and out of bed.

But...I'm sorry, I was raised by powerful women, and all my education says romance, sweetness, and gentleness are the way to go--and that worked for every woman before--so WTF is the spanking thing all about?!!

OK, so we're not together anymore. If I find out it was because I wasn't good enough at the spanking thing, I will be really annoyed.

So now, more than a year later, I Want to date again. Really, I want to be married. My wild oats are so thoroughly sown, sex is like, number six or seven on my list anymore.

My excellent home cooking is going to waste! What's the use of cooking great meals if you don't have someone around to eat them and say "wow those are the best meatballs I ever ate." I am a talented massage therapist with no shoulders to rub! Not to mention that I am a good singer-songwriter without a beloved to write love songs for!

So I am again looking at personal ads.

And I am flabbergasted by the variety of expressed sexual preferences of the women out there.

When I was a young man, it seemed like women basically wanted a guy who was tall dark, handsome, rich and romantic. OK, I made up for tall, handsome and rich with charm, wit, warmth and loyalty.

And women today still seem want those things, but boy are they ever more expressive with sexual stuff that..I guess is ok, but...just doesn't "do it" for me. Well, actually, some of the stuff they fantasize about strikes me as not just fetishy, kinky and pornographic, but positively ridiculous, gross, or absolutely weird. Otherwise, they seem like normal, healthy women. Probably because they are normal, healthy women. Who enjoy fantasies that I do not happen to share. God bless them.

So I am doing my best at keeping my cool. It takes every kind of people to make the world. I have the power to be accepting, I don't have to get hyper-emotional when my buttons are pressed. Eventually, I'll find a compatible partner. Maybe.

Different strokes for different folks.

Like the song says: "that is the way of sex."

October 17, 2007
1:46 am
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Oops, sorry, I cross posted my response,from the other thread...

I am still reading the Jensen paper.

October 17, 2007
3:11 am
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Pubic hair shaving-

It's sensual. Raises sensitivity. Y'all gotta try this sometime if you have access to a waterbed, especially the 70's kind where it's just one big mattress:

Turn up the heat on the bed a few degrees.

Put a fan in the room. Gotta have it warm, but with a breeze.

Shave. Both of you. Get the Kuma Sutra (I think that's what they're called) massage oils, a couple strawberry and watermelon flavored massage oils, and baby oil. Strip the bed.

PLAY!

I'm tellin ya- it's a MOST sensual experience.

free

October 17, 2007
3:23 am
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Oh! Can't forget-

Hot chocolate with Bailey's Irish cream. Rain "music". Hershey's syrup, Redi-Whip whipped cream, and maraschino cherries.

Once he's been massaged, there cherry will stay on the whipped cream.

aaaaaaaaaaaa!

Sensual.

free

October 17, 2007
3:55 am
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Hi Free,

Holy crap!

I go to another thread to five minutes and come back to pubic hair shaving and water beds and exotic oils and Irish cream, whipped cream, chocolate syrup, cherries, and Goodness knows what else.

Whatever happened to:

Take a bath, put on your flannels, put on a nice Eddie Arnold or Jim Naybors album, turn out all the lights so the bedroom is completely pitch black, say a prayer for Richard Nixon and flop around until you find a decent Methodist missionary position for virtually silent babymaking, rise at dawn, whistle the "My Three Sons" theme song on the road and make it to work by 9 am thing?

You wild and crazy kids!

:DD

October 17, 2007
7:48 pm
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Matteo
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Lol!

Holy crap is right!

Whatever happened to something in between the rolling on a bare water bed in whipped cream and maraschino cherries after your shaved body (head included??) was massaged with food flavored oils - and making babies half dressed in missionary position under the covers in silence in pitch black bedroom?

How about getting wild on a bed with nice sheets, no clothes and no covers, with dimmed light and lots of noise and some really good spanking when close to ecstasy, WD? Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

October 17, 2007
7:52 pm
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Matteo
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By the way, I imagine that some "real action" might be somewhat difficult on that slippery water bed when your body is all greasy as well. LOL! I am not a big fan of voyeurism, but I would like to watch THAT!

October 17, 2007
7:54 pm
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Oops ~ I'm sorry kroiks, I think this is not the right thread to get wild.

October 17, 2007
7:55 pm
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MsGuided
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I got my camera.you guys volunteering?ahahaha

You need some props? Got some of those too. Just sterilize when done. Don't worry Matteo and WD. I won't release any of it on the net..OOPS too late! ;0)

October 17, 2007
8:00 pm
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MsGuided ~ oh you want to watch too, yes? Over and over again when you have it on tape? LOL!

October 17, 2007
8:31 pm
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matteo~

I'm tellin ya- it's awesome!

You don't get the "greasy" feeling- remember- you can always get in the shower afterwards.

It's awesome sliding around the warm oiled bed and your partner tastes and smells so good.

It's kind of like: The feel of a professional massage, the sound of peaceful rain, the smell of chocolate chip cookies (the smell of vanilla permeates the room), and the taste of yummy sweets like hot fudge Sundays and Bailey's - an orgasm-

what else great is there in life?

I know- there's lots of things. But these things together-

jamma mamma!

all these oils wash off.

A dim lit candle- yeah- I have candles going when I do this- I always have candles going anyhow in my house.

No watching matteo!

No cameras!

This is an "all out I'm gonna bare my soul with my hunny bunny" affair!
ah, this kind of intimacy.

One of the joys of being human.

free

October 17, 2007
8:36 pm
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oh, gosh, how much am I gonna share?

well....

This is fun, too. Especially in the circumstances outlined above.

Remember, this about PLAY.

When ya have him all whip creamed up, you can catapult cherries off his winkie and try to hit things in the room.

it really works!

Can you picture?

free

October 17, 2007
9:34 pm
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sounds like really great erotica to me. Worlds away from the big sellers in the porn world.

October 17, 2007
10:34 pm
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Well maybe that's where all the controversy lies-

there's erotica and then there's porn.

Erotica is so fun. It's play.

I find porn just- gross. It's such an objectification of women and the sex act. And yeah- the big sellers are parasites. They prey on young people, poor people- I mean let's face it, a person with any self esteem isn't gonna get into porn.

I found out my husband went to porn and it still- grosses me out. It's kind of like "ewe, you don't wipe your butt" or something.

Seems those who advocate for porn don't value the intimacy involved with sex between people.

free

October 18, 2007
4:00 pm
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FREE

well I guess that means lots of poeple have low self esteem!
Lets face it. We are being marketted to death. You can look at erotica online and it becomes porn. You get bombarded. People ar eloenly looking for escape, want to feel alive and the way things are is tentamount to entrapment. Once you open th eporn window online , so many open, you have a hard time closing. Are the cards stacked against us?

Matteo

I though tit was hillarious the way you and WD came out in type. I had to joke about that.

I am having a really hard time with depression and am a little reactive. I am putting a text muzzle on because I need to level off, and get my mood elevated before i continue just blurting and spinning.

Meanwhile I enjoy reading all the intelligent stuff here.(and in other sections of course!) Thanks

October 18, 2007
5:01 pm
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Hi MsGuided~

I should have been more clear. I don't think people with any kind of healthy self esteem would be an "actor" or "model" or "participant" in a pornographic movie or photography whatever.

Maybe that's something else to debate I dunno.

that definitely WAS funny how matteo and wd came out in unison~!

free

October 18, 2007
5:08 pm
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*****OMG******

"When ya have him all whip creamed up, you can catapult cherries off his winkie and try to hit things in the room."

WOW!!!!

And they say us queers are the sexual deviants. I have to say I have NEVER in my life done the "Cherry-Winkie Catapult" before.

Wow.

October 18, 2007
7:09 pm
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free2choose ~ I believe that we are all queers.

October 18, 2007
7:56 pm
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oh, PS:

I did not mean the deviant thing to imply u are deviant, Free, it was meant as humor.

Believe me, I've done some wild and crazy things too. But let me tell you what, one couse in MicroBiology and being a human sundae is FOREVER ruined!!

October 18, 2007
10:18 pm
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Kroika

Thanks for listing this - "a newer book by Robert Jensen has become available. For anyone interested, it is called "Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity"

I am putting that on my to-read list. It's getting pretty long!!

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