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kroika's essay: Pornography and Sexual Health
February 13, 2007
3:52 am
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Worried_Dad
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"Life-sized 'love dolls' have become so lifelike that some men are choosing computer-generated three-dimensional virtual pornography over real human beings."

I think that choosing to interact with a fantasy, rather than engage in a truly loving and intimate relationships, has long been the rule, rather than the exception--for both men and for women--for dozens, maybe hundreds of years.

Recent evidence: The rate of divorce. The preponderance of marital sexual dissatisfaction and sexual infidelity for men and also for women.

February 13, 2007
5:00 pm
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Tiger Trainer
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Well marriage certainly was a lesson on the difference between reality and fantasy. That's for sure.

February 13, 2007
11:33 pm
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Men are from Mars. Originally at least. I am at least 25% Martian.

February 14, 2007
1:29 am
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kroika,

The Japanese men with their dolls strike me as being demented. To willingly choose a doll over a real-live woman is just plain bizarre, IMO. It's always more difficult to deal with a real person, and I suppose some people will opt for an easier path.

Seeker

February 14, 2007
1:47 am
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Seek,

What I was scratching at is that there is a tendency for people, although they may actually rub bodies with someone, have a marriage license, maybe even kids...to actually choose to not deal with a "real person." We make a "doll,"
an idol, a fantasy out of the person we are with--and when fantasy comes apart in the bright light of reality--so does the fantasy bond, and, about 50% of the time, the marriage.

So the learning for me RE the awful dolls, porn. whatever, is about how ill prepared we usually are for actual relationship with real people--much less intimacy.

February 14, 2007
8:37 pm
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truthBtold
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Man - there is ALL KINDS of weird stuff out there you just wouldn't believe!!!!!

I heard that Moa Se Tung (spelling?) never brushed his teeth, didn't like to wash his hair because he liked how it would make him itch and alot of other weird crap.

I think that there is and always has been a weird kind of underground for all of this kind of stuff.

I started to watch a movie once with Nicolas Cage....."Snuff" I think that it was called or something like that.....I had to turn the channel - was making me sick.

February 14, 2007
9:22 pm
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Hi TruthB and Tiger Trainer,

You two are newer on this site so I just thought I'd mention that this is part of an earlier thread that I originally posted in August, hence the title. I did write an essay about pornography and sexual health, and if you're interested in reading it, click on "view all posts" at the top left corner of the screen when you scroll all the way up.

Matteo, WD and Seeker, thanks for your responses. I can't write more just now, but wanted to acknowledge you. Take care all.

February 14, 2007
10:36 pm
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truthBtold
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kroika,

Just read the original thread from August. WHEW!!!!

I think that your essay was clear and concise and deserved the "A" that it got.

In reading most of the other material and other posts, I agree that there really has to be a CLEAR DISTINCTION drawn between what exactly constitutes erotica versus porn as seekerw originally pointed out.

But exactly, where IS that line?

I believe that women (or men or children, for that matter) ought not be EVER "objectified."

Where and how do we draw that line?

There are so many gray areas. Take for instance the "Little Miss Beauty Pagents" that continue to take place so strongly here in the south in the United States. Much kudos' to the recent documentary on PBS that outlined this stupid contest and the frustrated mothers and "Pagent Consultants" behind it all.

Do you know that there are even "tooth implacements" given to a six-year-old to give her the smile and look of an adult....coupled with the teased-up hair and grown-up costumes......it's just damn creepy!!!!!!!

I don't have the answer. All that I can say is that this is an industry run rampant without regulation.

But how then - would you go about to regulate it? Are there any other examples which would even remotely lend themselves to this?????

What comes to mind is that the base, gritty, non-humanizing aspect of all that is "porn" should one day be considered "politically incorrect" by the masses.

Society plays a role here.

I know here in the US, there is a supermarket chain which has an optional "block out" plastic flap which it uses in just "regular" magazines in the check out lane when it is thought that the cover material is just too risque.

Maybe that's a start.

I think that the answer is very subtle. Subtle in the fact that can be compared to a time in our history where women wore exoctic feathers in their hats. At one point, it was all the rage - then later, it was silently and subtlely "deemed by society" to be "uncivilized."

Herein, I think is the key - or at least a start.

There HAS to be a silent and subtle standard set by the masses which deems the objectifying of women in general to be passe. Looked down upon by a general, populas concensus.

Kind of like the wearing of "real fur" coats nowadays.

Anyway, that's my slant on it.

tBt

February 15, 2007
7:37 am
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hi tBt,

Thanks for your kind evaluation of my essay. Yes, it's a tough subject to grapple with. I think most people are happily unaware of what "the industry" is churning out. And there really is a lack of much clear thinking.

I agree with you that a shift in attitude would be good. I hope to see it in my lifetime - !

February 15, 2007
7:42 am
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This makes me sick.

February 16, 2007
9:07 pm
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Wow Krioka,
I just read your essay it certainly is well written and thought provoking. i've always thought pornography as chauvanistic but I never knew the practical problmes it could involved

February 17, 2007
12:56 pm
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Hi OMW and TT,

Yes, OMW, it is pretty sickening, and it is huge. It affects us in ways we don't know and can't imagine. TT, glad you appreciated my essay. I very strongly believe that knowledge is power.... even though sometimes we would prefer not to know about certain things.

February 17, 2007
1:04 pm
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There ws a documenray with the creatues of "Living Dolls" on I believe it was showtime. The ycost around $5,000- adn you can special order specific hair, facial features, and I believe a fe "real" porn stars have been made into "real Dolls."
Actually it wasn't a documentary, Its a Show on Showtime called Real Sex, and they make documentary type shows in their series. Some arewuite fascinating and educational, but there werea few I found kinda weird, but the fact that couples adn individuals actaully went and explored tings togetherto learn for themselves was/is great, IMO, but the dolls temselves is really odd to me. I personally find most porn ot be very un nerving and it really disgusts and makes me feel gross. withte HUGE close ups showing nothing but "in andOut' if you will. perhaps te only ones who would benefit are their gynecologists, becasue MINE sees much less of what soem of the porns ive seen show. eww. Ick..
"porn can be brought into a relatonship to inspire erotic uh.. bonmding and such, but when an unhealthy minded person relys on and also uses it as a crutch for their amusment..etc it can make the other person involved in the relationship fee lgross, In adequate, and like they mean nothing REAL to the other person.ESPECIALLY if the man involved used italot duringthier "disappearences into a weekend of drugs and masturbation at a hotel, and then tried ot bring it home and it becomes a substitiion for their drug ofchice.(speaking from slight smaller example of personal experience here...but if the porn is turnedon as SOON as you think you're having a "zesty session night." lol and you look over andthen "someone" is holding not only himself, but the remote, rather than talking to caressing and giving you(me) the attention YOU want need, I was finding the whole thing revolting and disgusting. Now, If both parties like it and enjoy it and find it an aid to their relationship then great!!to each their own, "different strokes..." << LOL, sorry couldnt resist.I thought i was more open minded than i realy am, but there were also other issues involved, which goes to mythought: Sex cannot be just physical/ visual for me.. can it be for others with out getting "icky" /unhealthy/perverse??And the nagain.. if some one is "perverse" and NOT hurting anyone..is it then just "kinky" or acceptable pervertedhood/ness(lol) then does it matter??

February 17, 2007
1:13 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Well, for some people sex can be a purely recreational act--like in swingers culture.

I expect they don't think of themselves as icky or perverse.

They probably think more like "Golf on Thursday afternoon, swinging is Friday nights, then Saturday is the Kid's soccer practice, Sunday is Church day, Monday is football...."

February 17, 2007
1:25 pm
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addicts wife
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All lVERY good point Worried Dad!!! I have always been fascinated withthat "alternative lifestyle" knowing its not for me, but thinking 'heck, if it works for everyone involved, cool!!" We eve ndrove by a place here in CT where they have themed night adn apparently you can just go t othe bar area, and then IF so inclined theres mant floors for "Whatever." could have just been our child like curiosity that promted our "drive-by" but still, I think it's fascinating, and do realize that thre are all kinds of people who live all kinds of ways..and JUSt becasue I dont do or knowabout sometihng doesnt mean Its wrong,(Ive always ben fascinated by others adn the dynamics of different scenarios etc.

February 17, 2007
1:53 pm
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WSorried_Dad

"What I was scratching at is that there is a tendency for people, although they may actually rub bodies with someone, have a marriage license, maybe even kids...to actually choose to not deal with a "real person." We make a "doll," an idol, a fantasy out of the person we are with--and when fantasy comes apart in the bright light of reality--so does the fantasy bond, and, about 50% of the time, the marriage.

So the learning for me RE the awful dolls, porn. whatever, is about how ill prepared we usually are for actual relationship with real people--much less intimacy."

This is nailing it.

I agree with you. We are ILL prepared for real relationships with REAL people, This is the bottom line for me.

MUCH LESS INTIMACY. I would say NO intimacy.

February 17, 2007
1:59 pm
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Just to add.
There is no intimacy with a doll. Its just pleasing yourself on a fantasy base.

Its like lying to yourselve.

Gosh this is sickning.

Any person in my mind that has the need to buy a doll to satisfy himself is absolutely mentally sick.

Whats the differnce between having sex with a doll and masturbating?

Anybody?

February 17, 2007
2:04 pm
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bevdee
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Would having sex with a doll require both hands?

I don't know much about the doll logistics.

February 17, 2007
2:49 pm
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Bevdee

I guess you have a point here. LOL

PS just wanted to add that I think masturbating some times to get rid of high hormone levels is just plain normal and necessary.

To masturbate say 5 times a day to fill the void is just plain sick and abnormal. These men would easily buy a doll and fantasies etc.

(Except when you are 18 years old)

I am confusing myself. Yes there is a fine line. Everybody deside for themselves.

February 17, 2007
2:50 pm
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Bevdee

I guess you have a point here. LOL

PS just wanted to add that I think masturbating some times to get rid of high hormone levels is just plain normal and necessary.

To masturbate say 5 times a day to fill the void is just plain sick and abnormal. These men would easily buy a doll and fantasies etc.

(Except when you are 18 years old)

I am confusing myself. Yes there is a fine line. Everybody deside for themselves.

February 17, 2007
3:04 pm
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But 5 times? Do these people have JOBS to go to?

Where do they find the time?

February 17, 2007
3:27 pm
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bevdee

LOL

you make me laugh and I needed to have a good laugh this week-end.

Thanks

I wish Tez can respond right now.

February 18, 2007
2:39 pm
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Hi Garfield,

"much less" is kind of an Americanism that can be taken to mean:

"not to mention"

or perhaps "and certainly not..."

Examples sentences.

"He is not even a doctor, much less a brain surgeon."

February 21, 2007
7:57 am
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kroika,

Hi! It's been a while since I last posted you. Hope you've been well.

I just re-read the essay you originally posted. I was struck by the fact that there are very few benefits listed for porn. They basically boil to that porn can be liberating to women IF it portrays "adult female characters in non-coercive, truly consensual sexual situations in which their own needs and desires are expressed and fulfilled, limits are respected and safe sex is practised, such pornography could be empowering."

How such porn could be liberating to women is not stated. We're simply to believe Lisa Palac's assertion that it is. She's a distributor of porn and therefore has a vested interest in promoting it and sanatizing it. Why we should believe her assertion at face value is beyond me.

When I was into internet porn several years ago and I searched for it on the web, I never saw such porn. This actually would be erotica instead of porn, by the definitions of 'erotica' and 'porn' that you've previously proposed.

The porn I saw always showed women as sexual objects to be used by men, something a man can masturbate to. I made this point earlier, but it bears repeating. Judging by the number of sites dedicated to each, the internet clearly favors porn over erotica. Therefore most men choose to view porn instead of erotica, or else porn would not sell like it does. Porn is defined in one of your definitions as being inherently degrading to women.

In other words, the benefits you listed for porn are actually the benefits of erotica, not porn.

I propose therefore that porn HAS NO BENEFITS.

Even if it had any, IMO, these benefits would be clearly overwhelmed by your statement that "Female partners of these men [men involved with porn] may begin to question their own desirability, and may suffer sadness and depression at the loss of physical and emotional intimacy. Having their feelings about sex minimized or ignored is a sexual boundary violation. So are being continually asked for specific sexual behaviours they are uncomfortable with, being forced to perform, or threatened with harm for not performing (Weiss & DeBusk, 1993)".

No alleged benefit of porn could justify such awful feelings that its use creates in women. Us men should be ashamed of ourselves! By indulging in porn, we neglect our duty to love our women, and we give them cause to doubt their desireability and deprive them of emotional and sexual intimacy. WHAT BENEFIT COULD POSSIBLY ATONE FOR THAT?

Women don't need to be told that they should learn to live with such feelings, that it's their fault somehow that they feel that way. Quite the opposite. Women need to be reminded often that their men find them attractive and desireable, in words and actions. There are so many forces already that conspire to make women doubt their own beauty and desireability, such as images on TV of young, beautiful, thin women. We don't need any more such images from porn.

I wrote more than I intended to say, but I just couldn't help myself.

Seeker

February 21, 2007
11:48 pm
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Hi Seek,

Good to see you! Thank you for reading my essay again and sharing more thoughts. It is tremendously reassuring to me to hear from a man who gets it that porn is not beneficial to promoting either healthy sexuality or true intimacy between men and women.

Essentially it is a consumer product/ activity, and the producers make big bucks off it. And people, lots of people, get hurt from it.

Just this week there was a big to-do here because one of the local phone companies started offering "soft-core porn" as a service you could download on your cell phone. ($3 for a still image, $4 for video). I'm not too sure what their definition of "soft-core porn" was (the definition is such a slippery thing) -- but I did hear one tale of someone calling in to the radio and complaining about being stuck on a bus sitting next to someone looking at porn on their cell phone.

However, whatever the details, there has been such an immediate outcry about it, that the offer has been withdrawn. So perhaps the general public has not capitulated completely to the sleazebags yet.

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