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kroika's essay: Pornography and Sexual Health
December 29, 2007
3:04 pm
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bevdee
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"You make it sound as if I ought to feel

guilty when people start screaming at me."

What did I say to imply that?

December 29, 2007
3:07 pm
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free
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What I really like about wd, is

his ability to respond to some pretty

brutal attacks in a relatively calm

manner. I like that in a man. He

doesn't hold grudges, and I do

believe that he likes women. It's

often stated that it's "time to

stand up to wd" and such, but in

reality, if you look at the picture

from the outside, it's wd versus

many. It's wd who is trying to

stand up for himself and his

thoughts. His thoughts are as

valuable as anybody elses. Since

he seems to present a different

perspective, maybe something can be

learned from him. I don't think it's

wise to shut him down.

free

December 29, 2007
3:12 pm
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bevdee
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Free

"Since he seems to present a different

perspective, maybe something can be learned from him."

I agree. That's why I encouraged the essays and the new thread "Safe Puce for defending porn"

December 29, 2007
3:12 pm
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free2choose
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WD.

If you can't take the heat, stayout of the fucking kitchen.

We've done this before, we'll do it again.

You feel the need to defend the sexist institution of porn, for whatever "bullshit" reasonings that you defend it, be it your perspective of finding our TRUTH to be "intelectually dishonest" or what ever the newist big-word bullshit weasel way you can come up with to DENY DENY DENY the hurt, pain and trauma that porn creates. Whatever. Tomato.

I feel the need to rage and be angry. Women NEED to rage and be angry. We need to RISE UP and demand EQUALITY. We need to get off our asses and OUR BACKS and say enough is enough!!!!!

My rage is justified by your very own denial of the pain that you cause. That is an exact representation of the bigger picture.

Women's rage should be JUSTIFIED by Men's (and societies) DENIAL of the pain that is caused by belief systems that feed oppresive and objectifying industries such as the porn industry.

I am not all RAGE and not at all LIES or BULLSHIT....

that would be YOU, WD, carefully hidden under your cloak of "intellect" and big words and shifty humor.

I am Rage. But I am also Truth and Justice.

And don't worry about the shock wearing off, because I am not backing down this time, so you'll have to remain in a perpetual state of shock

And you can respond when ever you work up the balls to do so.

But when you do, YOU GET REAL.

Because the women on here ARE real, and these are REAL WOMEN's THOUGHTS and FEELINGS.

If u can't handle that, get the fuck out, because what REALLY is not helping is you.

December 29, 2007
3:23 pm
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free2choose
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The porn thread STARTED in SUPPORT and was moved here by the SC because people like WD came in and started defending PORN and Denying women's very real and very VALID pain and suffering.

These porn threads were STARTED to help people heal from damage caused by PORN.

NOT to DEFEND the existence of porn.

So why can;t you see WD that it is YOU that is not "helping" things when you come in and trigger and badger REAL women with REAL issues involving REAL emotion.

Create your own "PORN ROCKS" thread if you wanna talk about how great porn is. I won't touch it with ten foot pole.

But stop coming in here and taking over and spreading your own "bullshit" to people who really don't need it or want it.

December 29, 2007
3:24 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Bevdee,

Ths one:

"I know alot of times people return to subjects that trigger them, and I notice that you are the only constant in these threads. As a defender.

You get new posters to argue with, because the others back off."

December 29, 2007
3:32 pm
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free
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this is a frigging lynching.

December 29, 2007
3:43 pm
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free2choose
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No Free, it's not a lynching.

What it is is "a long time coming".

This was going on before you even got here.

This started YEARS ago.

I have been avoiding coming here for WEEKS because I saw that this thread had popped up AGAIN and I knew what would happed AGAIN.

But this is just fucking bullshit.

Back the fuck off WD.

Let it go.

Wrap yourself in your coccoon of self-righteous intellect and "good" argeuments and pat yourself on the back for a good try,

but back the fuck off.

December 29, 2007
3:55 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Free2choose,

I can put up with your violence, your projection and your abuse for a little longer. I get it: anyone who does not agree with you 100% is going to be a target of yelling and name calling and accusations.

But it would be nice if you mixed a little honesty in with your rage. Starting with the actual reason that porn threads were moved here--which is not because of me--it's because this side is the place for that kind of conversation.

Let me ask you something. You say you are concerned about sexism, rape, oppression, degradation, inequality, and injustice. Why are you screaming about porn then?

Why don't you point to some examples of sexism, oppression and inequality and offer criticism?

I've seen individual women in oppressive relationships, but I live in America, not Saudi Arabia.

All the men I know are respectful of women, perceive them and treat them as equals--heck, the men I know in relationships treat them better than equals.

Half of the people in medical school are women. The current front runner for the position of "most powerful person on earth" and leader of the free world is a woman.

I just don't see "oppressed" as being the basic condition of women in this country.

December 29, 2007
3:59 pm
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It'll be Obama wd. Oprah said so.

free

December 29, 2007
4:10 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Free,

He might end up winning. It's hard to fight Oprah.

It's interesting that it would be a woman who decides who gets to be leader of the free world.

Apparently the legion of pornographic darkness
has been unsuccessful at oppressing her.

December 29, 2007
4:41 pm
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bevdee
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WD

I did not say you ought to feel guilty. You aren't projecting your own guilt out and attributing it to me, are you?

(((WD)))

December 29, 2007
5:08 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Bevdee,

Well, then, never mind.

December 29, 2007
5:12 pm
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bevdee
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WD

LOL.

December 29, 2007
6:24 pm
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Ah, gee,

I was going to stay away from this thread until the formatting was back to normal
and it was easier to read. And then I thought, I'm not going to sit back
while WD comes on and accuses bev of "violence" while he characterizes
the posts of others on this thread as "crap arguments, lies and bullshit"
WD, you haven't done your reading on verbal abuse very well, because you are being abusive with this language.
Then you come on and tell free2choose, "I can put up with your violence, your projection and your abuse for a little longer."
I think the person who is projecting here is you, WD. When bev suggests that, you back away and say "never mind."
I'll have more to say when the format returns to normal. But I will say one thing more...
You like to bait people, WD, and then when they take the bait and get angry at you, you call them names.
You're a baiter, WD. And you're very good at it.
I would even say, you're a master baiter.
hah

Oh, almost forgot, why did you want me to tell you what essay to write?
You seem to need a woman to get mad at you and then tell you what to do. Why is that?

December 29, 2007
7:12 pm
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I've a question.

do y'all think wd's sole reason for

posting here is to hurt people?

Not wanting to "fight", I'm

genuinely curious.

free

December 29, 2007
7:18 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Calling crappy arguments and writing "crappy" is not abusive, Kroika;
it's descriptive.

Calling lies lies is not abusive.
I didn't see you calling "abuse" on

the essay from Bev's link, which uses the word "lie" about nine times.

And calling “bullshit” on bullshit is not bullshit.

Bev corrected my misperception of her, so I said "never mind."
That’s not baiting.

The essay? Forget it, I don't feel as generous as did last night.

I'll pick the one to write myself, when I get around to it.

Right now, I'm doing a porn research project, cause I'm tired of hearing that

I have no idea how "modern porn" is.

I'll let you know if I find any examples of women being called names or degraded on film.

So far, 55 films into my project, it looks pretty much a slice of life from the average American bedroom.

Actually, it amazing how much seems to be filmed at home by actual, average American couples.

In other words, just like just about every other porn I’ve seen—offensive,

if naked people having sex is offensive.

If naked people having sex is not in and of itself offensive, then I would have to characterize

the 55 films I just watched as bland, innocuous and unworthy of comment.

If most porn is full of brutality and abuse, you would think I might have
come across a single example of it by now.

Question is how many films do I have to watch before you would accept that I have seen a representative sample? 100? 200? 300? 400? 500?

The things I do for science.

December 29, 2007
7:34 pm
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Well shoot I wanted to read the one

on #2, talking to a porn addict.

Ever since I found out my husband

was jacking off to a computer screen,

or whatever it is pornsters do when

they watch that stuff, I've been

disgusted by the fact I married him.

Not nice, I know. But man, porn is

gross stuff. Feel like I married a

sewer rat. ugh.

free

December 29, 2007
7:37 pm
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No offense wd.

December 29, 2007
7:54 pm
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Worried_Dad
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OK Free, for you I'll do it.

I'll have to do some research. Addiction not being my best thing.

December 29, 2007
7:57 pm
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thanks wd!

I'm sure others will benefit as well.

free

December 29, 2007
8:23 pm
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My hubby's computer caught a nasty

virus from a porn site. I think I

said that before- but get this, his

ex wife is a computer guru so we had

her "fix" it for him, and she did,

but she didn't back up his music and

personal files so he lost it all! He's devastated-

hours and hours he spent downloading

music and all his tax stuff was on there

too. he's self-employed. So now he might

end up with the IRS after him (us). I

think that is so funny (except for

the "us" part in the IRS). I had to tell

him "honey, that's what happens when

ya get all hooked into that stuff- you

lose everything of value."

And it's true. Ya do.

Like meth or any other disgusting drug.

Most important to any marriage, you

lose intimacy and the desire for your

wife to seek pleasure with you. My

husband lost alot that he hasn't

really grasped yet. I don't know how

to even tell him when he asks about

sex and why I dont' want it. He

thinks I need the female equivalent

of viagra, I think I need a new

partner. Erotica, that was a gift

to him, from me. Well I don't give

that anymore, knowing that he

doesn't value that gift. That it's

just an object. That in bed I'm

just an object. he can have his computer screen

as far as I'm concerned. I've no desire

to compete. None. So I don't and won't.

Porn- it's bad stuff wd. It really is.

free

December 29, 2007
8:27 pm
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bevdee
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(((Free))) I hear what you are saying about
objectification. I'm sorry you are going through this.

(((Free2choose))). IMO, you are expressing your

anger in an assertive, non violent way. Impassioned,

yes. Abusive, no.

WD - Enjoy the Research.

December 29, 2007
8:50 pm
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I've been thinking about truths.

Whichever drum we beat, beating implies struggle. I believe

we are all beating a drum in an effort

to arrive at truth. It's an interesting concept. I am

continually learning that there are several different kinds, or

"levels" of *Truth*-

There is one's personal truth. That is, the truth you are

living from day to day, your experiences, successes and failures.

There is the *Truth* that we wish to be. Some have

the luxury of being very exotic and powerful in this kind

of *Truth.* Others must face certain realities that prevent this

luxury from being possible.

There is *the Popular Truth.* - that truth accepted by the majority of

the group as being *Reality* - which can easily be challenged, but only

by those who do not fear being condemned by and isolated from the group.

History presents many examples of those who have spoken up to

challenge the *Popular Truth*, commonly held perceptions- ("the Emperor has no clothes, but

don't tell the queen!")

To the blatantly affluent, the truth of poverty is an uncomfortable lie.

To the young and healthy, age and illness is a frightening falsehood.

Some may find offense in the expressions of certain others' *truth*. In

that case, one might find relief through close

examination of their own *truth.*

Perhaps the *truth* we honor is not really "our" *truth* at all.

However, I can't think on this too long at one time,

I might go crazy!!

December 29, 2007
8:57 pm
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Gimme a break! Screaming the f-word at people is abusive.

That's not assertive communication.

It's being tolerated because of the person who's doing it.

Now that's reality.

free

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