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kroika's essay: Pornography and Sexual Health
December 29, 2007
2:25 am
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free2choose
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Wanna know why...

Because he likes to argue, he likes to ruffle feathers, he likes to feel superior, he like to sound smart and intellegent with his big INTELECT and his reasoning...it "gets him off", pumps his ego, makes him feel like a MAAAAANNNNNN!!

Arguing for porn is WD's porn.

I'm not intimidated. WD, you can call me emotional, irrational, try to beat me down with your words and you "intellect", justlike you always do when this topic comes up...

But I don't care. Because I AM emotional. I KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAIS WRONG. I know what the TRUTH is. You can denyit all youwant and defend it all you want and call me emotional and irrational all youwant, butthat doesnot change the TRUTH.

PORN HURTS PEOPLE!!!! Not just women, but men too.

It affects our relationships, howwe relate to eachother, our beliefs about ourselves and members of the same and opposite sex. It affects in am NEGATIVE way.

Far all your bull shit about porn's POSITIVE infuluence on people...there are SO MANY MORE negative influences, and thathas been shown time and time and time again in studies and research.

I'm sick of this fucking discussion.

I'm sick of having to fight for equality and respect and HUMAN FUCKING DIGNITY.

December 29, 2007
2:27 am
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free2choose
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Sorry, kroik, did not know it would do that. Sorry I messed up the format friend. next time I'll put some spaces in my screams...lol.

December 29, 2007
2:40 am
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(((((Erica)))))

Don't worry sweetie. I'm sure SC can fix it. Really nice to see you. Drop into kroika's kitchen anytime... in fakt if you go over there now, there's a big wikker basket full of New Year's presents and you are welkome to take one.

December 29, 2007
6:06 am
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Hi Kroika.

I'll work with you first, since this is your thread, you're a nurse trying to do good work, etc.

"WD, you seem to need to dismiss arguments against porn. Why is that"

First I notice that there is an imprecise definition of the word being used--imprecise in that it is not a consensual definition.

If porn is by definition something that is degrading and abusive to women, then there isn't really anything controversial there to talk about--in the same way it would be dumb to have a debate with a topic "Child Abuse, a good or bad thing?"

If it were cut and dried, there would be no controversy. But it actually is a controversial topic, for lots of reasons.

Anyway for these kinds of conversations I would like to see a definition of porn that reflects what most people think, rather than an idiosyncratic and gender-specific definition.

And I think it is more helpful and also more interesting to be specific, rather than go off on general purpose rants about "porn."

Talk about what is or was going on with this particular man, and this particular woman, this particular relationship and how porn played a part in those specific situations.

Next, when I see what seem to me to be not only bad arguments, but just plain rants, it bugs me. I don't like bad arguments--particularly when they seem to be about grinding some gender politics ax.

It's like trying to dissuade your kids from smoking pot--"reefer madness" type hysteria and extreme rhetoric is not effective.

The thing to do is give them *actual information.*

For example, it doesn't help the article's credibility when they criticize Playboy for calling the women in it "Bunnies," when in fact the women their aren't called Bunnies. They're called things like "Miss July." Well, at least that's what they were called in 1970.

I admit: I am "Mr. try to see all sides of a situation." No getting around that.

But you mistake my distaste and criticism of bad arguments for apologia. Given what you know about me and my history, why would I offer apologia for abuse? Duh, I wouldn't.

I don't like the idea of my kid having his early ideas about sexuality coming from porn, and I don't like the idea of him developing a porn habit and mistaking what he sees there as representational of how sexuality really works or how relationships ought to work.

But I sure wouldn't use the kind of rhetoric I see here to steer him away from it. Just like I wouldn't use "reefer madness" rhetoric to dissuade him from using pot.

I gather with you, for this topic, the techniques I have used to try to explain where I am coming from have been ineffective. And worse, you and other people seem inclined to invent absurd explanations for why I speak to you the way I do about this topic.

Therefore I have a proposition. It looks like "explaining" where I'm coming from doesn't work. I think I have to just show you.

I offer to write an essay or three with the theme: "The Problem With Porn."

I will take on a somewhat biased or slanted approach, in that I will emphasize problematic aspects of pornography consumption.

The themes I feel drawn to and think could be succinctly addressed are, in increasing level of difficulty:

1) "The Problem With Porn: How to talk to your kids about porn."

2) "The Problem With Porn: How to talk to talk about porn with male addicts."

3) "The Problem With Porn: How to talk to abused women about porn."

December 29, 2007
6:13 am
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Oops, I almost forgot:

Kroika, I want you to tell me which essay to write first.

December 29, 2007
10:32 am
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(((Free2choose)))

When I get upset I try

to consider a few things.

When I find myself being pulled into arguments,

I find it useful to step back and ask

myself does this person like

to argue or need to?

December 29, 2007
10:46 am
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WD
"Hint: It is a time-saver just to extract the small amount of factually accurate, intellectually honest material."

IYO?

Hint: No need to worry on my account about my time. I probably have too much free time right now as it it. Preciate your concern, though.

December 29, 2007
11:26 am
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WD

I have a couple of questions for you. You say

"Anyway for these kinds of conversations

I would like to see a definition of porn that reflects what

most people think, rather than an idiosyncratic and gender-specific

definition."

Maybe you could do a poll on a blog. This may not happen on AAC, and

on this thread. This site is mostly women. It hasn't happened in the

various porn threads that have been started by hurt women who

needed to talk to other women who had been hurt by a partner's

porn use - addiction. Women trying to heal the wounds in their

hearts. How will they get to that when they have or read

what are very likely the same arguments in those

threads as they have had in their homes with their porn-addicted

or porn -defending partners? Is that helpful to a woman who is in that

place in her pain?

"And I think it is more helpful and also more interesting

to be specific, rather than go off on general purpose rants about

"porn."" More helpful to whom? The ladies who have been hurt

by a partners porn use and/or addiction? I remember other

"porn" threads being moved by the SC from Support because

the controversy created on it was so upsetting to many on this

site. Sometimes a hurt person needs to spill before the work of

understanding and recovery can start. If it's really that difficult for you

to empathise with the women on this site - to understand how a

woman might feel degraded by the images portrayed in porn,

try this - imagine Worried_Sister bound and being whipped. Even

oh-so-lightly. Screaming.

Or Worried_Aunt with a gihugic cock in her mouth, pu**y and her a**, face contorted in pain.

If I thought of my nieces, young ladies now, no longer minors - in those

degrading positions, I would vomit.

I think your essays are a great idea. Maybe you could put them in

a new thread - something like

"A Safe Puce For the Discussion and Defense of Porn".

December 29, 2007
12:02 pm
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"Kroika, I want you to tell me which essay to write first."

Why?

December 29, 2007
12:59 pm
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This is stupid.

Argueing with WD is not gonna change the fact that women, for hundreds of years, have been the objects of abuse, degradation, objectification and oppression stemming from men's need to feel dominant and in control.

People will still go on producing gag inducing porn. Women will still get beaten and raped by thier husbands, their neighbors, their fathers, strangers...

Men will continue to believe that they have a right to our bodies, our minds, our spirits...that it is there for the taking and breaking.

Argueing with WD does nothing but enrage me, because it is an excercise in the futility I feel on a daily basis, trying to CHANGE the closed minds and hard hearts of those around me.

I can not change WD, nor can I change the world. I guess I just have to learn to live in it, and accept it for what it is. A place of pain, randomness, injustice, hatred, abuse, bigotry, suffering, injustice, sickness, hunger, rape. A place where there is no Light and no Hope....

December 29, 2007
1:13 pm
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I'd be interested in reading essay number 2: 2) "The Problem With Porn: How to talk to talk about porn with male addicts."

free

December 29, 2007
1:18 pm
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((((Erica))))

"A place where there is no Light and no Hope...." Ah, sweetie, I know some days it feels like that. I believe there is light and there is hope; mostly I find it in the community of people who believe that and work for it.

December 29, 2007
1:33 pm
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I think the light and hope is with women. Mothers are generally the nurturers, so one by one, we teach our children about porn before they find it themselves. We pre-program a distaste for it amongst both our boys and our girls. We kill the market.

For now, yeah, we have to learn to live with it because while freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, all good things have drawbacks and porn is one of them. Our kids don't know the difference between porn and erotica, healthy sex and unhealthy sex, animalistic behavior and intimacy. We as a whole haven't taught them so they've become prey to a predatory market as they've entered adulthood and now we have porn addicts feeding that market and I'm convinced they are not reachable. They're sick.

I am interested in the "essay number 2" wd.

free

December 29, 2007
1:36 pm
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Trying to deal with this format-

reading is horrible.

I think the light and hope is with

women. Mothers are generally the

nurturers, so one by one, we teach

our children about porn before they

find it themselves. We pre-program

a distaste for it amongst both our

boys and our girls. We kill the

market.

For now, yeah, we have to learn to

live with it because while freedom

of speech is a wonderful thing, all

good things have drawbacks and porn

is one of them. Our kids don't know

the difference between porn and

erotica, healthy sex and unhealthy

sex, animalistic behavior and

intimacy. We as a whole haven't

taught them so they've become prey

to a predatory market as they've

entered adulthood and now we have

porn addicts feeding that market and

I'm convinced they are not

reachable. They're sick.

I am interested in the "essay number

2" wd.

free

December 29, 2007
1:37 pm
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ah, much better. What

caused the format to do this?

I've had this happen before, but

don't know what causes it.

free

December 29, 2007
1:43 pm
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free the thread killer?

December 29, 2007
1:59 pm
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free2choose
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had to go gt lunch...not ran from u free, lol. no thread killing to me

actually I liked what you said very much

December 29, 2007
2:21 pm
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Hey it's good to see you back free2c. You've been missed. I forgot about lunch and people working- I'm a teacher so I've got a 2 week break.

free

December 29, 2007
2:26 pm
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I am not a comlpetely emotionally driven idiot.

Believe me, I LOVE freedom of speech, religion, expression and all that good shit the First Ammendment offers to us Americans.

Just look at my name FREE2CHOOSE, and you see my stand point on almost ALL things "controvesial", like abortion, gay marriage, even legalizing prostitution. (Which may sound hypocritical, but I do have a very good explanation.)

I'm not too stupid to realize what could happen if lawmakers decided to start censoring porn. Then what is next, right???

As much as a part of me would LOVE to see the porn indusrty abolished, or at the very least censored and banned, I know that in reality, that could never happen in this country, nor probably should it...which is hard for me to say.

See, PORN is just the head of the zit for me. And it's not just a zit, it's a big, putrid, oozing, germ filled abscess that goes as deep as the very core of our society.

Fighting porn is like squeezing the head of that zit, hoping against hope that if you squeeze it hard enough you'll eventually squeeze out that hard, ugly little head that is festering deep inside it.

I am not fighting JUST PORN.

I am fighting sexism. I am fighting rape. I am fighting oppression, degradation, inequality, injustice!!

Porn is just a symptom of the problem...the head of the zit.

The cure for that zit is not the aboltion or censorship of porn.

The cure is to create a society where the need for one human being to degrade another human being in order to feel worthy does not exist.

I do not know how to do that... To go about TRYING to effect the change needed for that type of society to exist.

Hell, half the time I struggle simply to change myself... my own sexism, racism, and other prejudices...

But just because I am imperfect, and because I do not know how to efficiently affect change DOES NOT negate the FACT that what I am saying is TRUTH!!!

Porn is very ugly, very hurtfull symptom of a virulent disease that plagues our socitey... SEXISM.

Sexism( like racism, heterosexism, and all the other "ism's") is an antiquated, harmfull belief system that erodes that connection between us all and tears away our human dignity. It is a system of oppression, injustice, and hatred. It is a system of fear.

The manifestations of the symptom of sexism are: less pay for women, objectification of women in the media, strained relationships between members of the opposite sex, inabilityto communicate and sympathize with your partnrr of the opposite sex, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, ABUSE, RAPE.

Porn is SEXIST. That is the truth.

But PORN is not the problem, WD.

Sexism is the problem.

December 29, 2007
2:29 pm
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Free
Did you follow WD in here with cock cherries,

whipped
cream and cooze peaches

this time? J/K!

I appreciate your comments about

educating the children. That is very

wise. I do however think it's a

shame that we can't place more

responsibility with men.

" We as a whole haven't

taught them so they've become prey

to a predatory market as they've

entered adulthood and now we have

porn addicts feeding that market and

I'm convinced they are not

reachable. They're sick." This is

stated very succinctly.

(((Free)))

December 29, 2007
2:50 pm
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Hi free2choose

Rage and screaming and bullshitting aren't really helpful--it's just you inflicting violence on anyone who doesn't toe your line exactly. I night respond later after the first shock of your violent attacks wear off.

Hi Bevdee,

Let me be more explicit: When people use a definition of porn that doesn't actually have anything to do with porn then that is plain out and out intellectual dishonesty. So when I log onto AAC and discover a pack of lies and bullshit being pushed in a thread that supposedly deals with "health," then by golly I'm going to have something to say about it.

Lies and Bullshit are not going to help anyone heal from anything. Crappy arguments aren't going to help anyone heal from anything.

Getting real--that actually can help people heal.

December 29, 2007
2:54 pm
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Bev,

It is not just the sole responsibility nor blame of men.

Women contribute to the problem, either actively, by creating porn or watching porn, or endulging any other form of sexist behavior.

The problem is that women have been beat down and whipped into submission.

Feminist like Russell and Dworkin and Mckinnon are viewed as over-reactionary alarmist bitches who want to stir up shit and break up the status quo, which is that MEN are in control of everything, including women and how we are viewed by society.

I am viewed here by the likes of WD as an over-reactionary emotional idiot who thinks with my heart instead of my brain ormy "intellect". I am dismissed as "dumb' and "emotional" because I can not provide SPECIFIC definitions that are agreed upon byall parties involved.

Well, u say tomato and I say to-ma-to, man.

How are we gonna reach a "consensual" definition when we approch the same subject from polar opposite perspectives.

The average man, part of the 85 to 90 % of all porn users, that man looks at porn and sees the tits and ass and the fucking. He gets excited and gets off. He feels big and strong and manly. He's like "fucking right, I can bag that ho. I can bang her just like that."

Most women that I've talked to and interviewed and heard on this forum DO NOT want to be "that ho". We don't want to be banged and bagged and scored. We are not toys, or animals, or games.

We are human fucking beings with feelings and desires and souls.

So how do those two people, that "ball bangning" man and that degraded woman come to a "consesual" agreement on a definition for the very thing that divides them?????

I am not over reacting.

I am TRUTH.

December 29, 2007
2:56 pm
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WD

Your words seem angry to me.

Again I am feeling like I should apologise for triggering you. But I won't.

I know alot of times people return to subjects that trigger them, and I notice that you are the only constant in these threads. As a defender.

You get new posters to argue with, because the others back off.

December 29, 2007
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bevdee.

Uh, no. Not followed him in

here with that.

That's erotica, not porn. Erotica

is quite different IMO. Wd and I

don't agree on everything bevdee,

we've been our rounds on a few

things. There was a time we didn't

even "speak" for awhile. Just wait

until the elections start, aaaaa!

Or, somebody brings up

the "peacefulness" of Islam. And

I'm sure there've been others.

Men DO carry the bulk of

responsibility for

this, as they are the ones primarily

promoting it. But they're making

money, and somebody didn't teach them

that it's not okay to hurt others

in order to make a buck. so that's

why I think we have to teach them

young. And for the girls, don't let

people prey on you like this, you're

worth more than this. And then, of

course, the difference between porn

and erotica. Erotica stimulates

intimacy. Porn kills it- for good.

free

December 29, 2007
3:02 pm
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hibevdee,

I'm just explaining myself,
not asking for an apology.

I hate crap arguments and lies and bullshit--

is that so difficult to understand?

Is honesty just too much to ask for?

You make it sound as if I ought to feel

guilty when people start screaming at me.

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