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Jesus isn't the ONLY way
June 19, 2009
3:17 pm
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bereft
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thank you, glittered, for your great observations. now i'll explain how you were mistaken (Mary must be a prophetess). acutally, if i may digress, the greatest proof of the truthfulness of Scripture is fulfilled prophecy. fulfilled prophecies are numerous, verifiable, and unanswerable as an argument for the truthfulness of Scripture. you're going to have to come up with something better than the collusion of the "writers and assemblers of those books of the bible" to discredit the verity of the Bible. skeptic have been trying for years.

you are CORRECT, glittered (i hope Mary's reading), you can't prove God by the Bible. and i'm not trying to prove God by the Bible. i presuppose God like the Bible does...."In the beginning God...." now, there's a lot of evidence in the Bible that there is God, but i think you prove the Bible by God. i think you start with the cause and look at the effect, you don't start with the effect and try to find the cause. that's why all those evidentialism arguments fall flat. the only way you can truly know and believe in the true God is by the Spirit of that God.

no errors. no incongruities, right? the genealogy of Matthew starts with David and goes to Joseph. the genealogy of Luke starts with Mary and goes backwards, but you notice it never says Mary. yeah, that's an interesting verse, verse 23 of Luke 3, “And Jesus, Himself, began to be about 30 years of age, being as was supposed, the son of Joseph, who was of Heli, who was of Matthat, and then it starts going backwards.

as you know, genealogies, for the most part, don't incorporate the name of the woman. the reason that Joseph’s name appears here is because it's normal to place him in the line through His (Jesus') father. Mary is not mentioned because this was not normal to trace that through the woman, but what is stated here is very unique, because it says Jesus was only supposedly the son of Joseph, which is a statement that is attempting to be consistent with a male genealogy and yet demonstrate that in fact it is not Joseph that is the issue here, but Mary.

and so to the difference in the two fathers--you have Jacob begetting Joseph in Matthew and you have a Heli begetting…the one who begets Jesus, who is Mary. so you have two different fathers. that's why we're sure that this is the genealogy of Mary.

all this begetting, what's that all about? what’s marvelous about it is that Jesus Christ is the One who should rule every way you look at it....at least according to that collusion of prophecy. He comes through the Davidic line by His father. He comes through the Davidic line by His mother. is that important? it’s extremely important in Jesus case because you’ve got your right to rule through your father.

and so Jesus, then had to be the son of Joseph legally, but He could not be the son of Joseph physically, because Joseph was in a part of the Davidic line that came through a man named Jeconiah (Jeremiah 22:29), and Jeconiah had been cursed and it was said that no son of Jeconiah would ever reign. and so He had to be in that line, but He couldn’t be of that line. in other words He couldn’t be born of the heritage of Jeconiah but He had to be in that line to receive the right to rule. so Joseph gave Him the legal right to rule, without giving Him the "polluted" line of Jeconiah. so Jesus got His genetic right to rule through Mary, who was also of David and His legal right through Joseph. So every element of those genealogies is essential to Christ’s right to the throne.

but, really, all that begetting was figured out by the writers and assemblers of those genealogies. right? and that conflict about Jeconiah, that mystery, that difficult verse to understand just looking at the Old Testament must have given those Net Testament writers quite a story to come up with seeing that the genealogies were very important to the Jewish people and impossible to fake. unmitigated divine truth. how you going to live with it?

grace and peace

June 19, 2009
5:24 pm
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Mari Kwante
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Good afternoon everyone!!!!

As I was browsing through I stumbled upon the posts of Mary and Glitter.

I believe that Jesus is God and that the Bile, while written by men, was inspired by God.

Due to my PERSONAL spiritual experiences my faith is not based on the Word of God alone.

I do find it a waste of time to point at someone else's beliefs and attempt to poke holes in it... why? Because none of us have an accurate statement about our creator but the fact that we can't necessarily prove it to others.

What relationship I have with the creator and the one that you may or may not have are nothing to poke fun at.

It seemed as if you are implying that by believing as I do that people are some sort of ring around the rosie idiots; and I am a well educated SCHOLAR.

Lets remain respectful… there’s a “correct” way to say everything.

Tez, you are always on point! I looked for the quotes that you mentioned and did not find any.

I also wonder about Paul’s dominance as well. I am skeptical of the Western Church and all of the “voting” that took place. I am still studying all of the councils and the outcomes. It’s very disturbing how a few men realized how powerful Christ’s message was and attempted to manipulate it.

Have a great weekend,

Mari

June 19, 2009
7:55 pm
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Mari Kwante- Loved your post! You are sooo right. You are correct when you stated "I do find it a waste of time..." As far as I am concerned this entire thread is a waste of time.

Unfortunalty there will always be negative people who gain power from grinding down others.

I wonder if the people who are bashing Christians feel fullfilled or stupid. I think they need to pay attention to the part that feels stupid.

June 19, 2009
10:02 pm
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"Unfortunalty there will always be negative people who gain power from grinding down others."

you would know

June 21, 2009
3:18 am
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bereft
On the 18-Jun-09 you wrote:

" ... first of all, Tez's forth possibility in my logic model is actually a continuation of my third possibility. Jesus correcting or eliminating error would be "covering them up," would it not?"

I would have to beg to differ here. If someone approaches me with a seemingly incorrect interpretation of one of the Buddha's sutras, which has happened, I would simply point out another way of interpreting that Buddhist scripture. On the other hand I have read a statement written by Thich Naht Hanh, the Zen Buddhist Master, stating that he seriously doubted the Buddha's authorship of one part of one particular sutra. In neither case was a cover up carried out by either myself or Thich Naht Hanh. A cover up, from my perspective, is trying to hide a part of scripture from any further criticism or unwanted attention because of its very controversial nature. The Buddha welcomed such criticism and in fact advised questioning everythign fed to us by so called religious authorities including himself, especially himself.

What puzzles me is how after all the years of my Christian schooling or subsequent indoctrination, I have never seen attention drawn to the controversial parts of the bible by any priest, pastor or whose-yer-father! Now that is what I would call a humongous cover up. Why was that my experience as a practicing Christian? I suggest that the reason is that neither they or anyone else since, can reconcile problematic old testament biblical statements with that of the existence of an unconditionally loving, all powerful, all knowing God being the author of same.

When I drew to the attention of the holder of a doctoral degree of divinity, a Catholic priest, the seemingly symbolic nature of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in Genesis for his interpretation of its meaning, he stated that it simply means what it says! So knowledge of good and evil is a fruit that grows on a tree??? Whaaa???? When I asked this same priest whether either Cain or Abel, before his death at the hands of Cain, copulated with either their own mother or unnamed sisters in propagating the human species, I was given short shrift. Now if the bible is to be taken literally then these are very serious questions indeed that need explanations. Would not Christ have been asked to please explain? Why were his explanations not recorded for posterity???

If the bible is not literally the word of the God then these Biblical scriptures are open to all sorts of possible interpretations. I'm sure Christ would have proffered these explanations quite readily. Where are they? Why were they excluded from the bible? Did Christ expose their true nature of being the work of over active primitive imaginings? My interpretations are therefore my right to make, just as any one else can are for themselves.

Which way is it Bereft? Are we looking at tribal fantasy, deistic literalism, tribal symbolism or a mixture of all three in the Bible????

June 22, 2009
4:37 pm
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marypoppins
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great questions, Tez, as always!

June 23, 2009
12:25 am
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red blonde
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Maybe it is just me but... oddly enough...this banter and one upmanship seems to have a vaguely familiar tone to it... even though it is now an 180 degree swing to the opposite.

June 23, 2009
11:44 am
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glittered when he walked
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Mary and Destiny,

Well, I truly am sorry if you feel that I personally have taken you to the pillory over your faith. That wasn't my intent and I'm curious as to how you arrived at that conclusion. I don't see how I've done that. I've used humor to explain my agnosticism or in dealing with others who preach hellfire and damnation, with two cups of judgment and a dash of righteous indignation as well.

I used humor in examining logical fallacies employed in the circular reasoning arguments. If that's what you take offense over...well, I;m sorry you feel that way but I don't consider those statements to be harsh or draconian or even hurtful by any means. Could you point to some specific statements that I've made? I mean, I could be forgetting that perhaps I did say something that could be construed as insulting..and if so, I would and will apologize.

I do object to the statements of "grinding christians down" or belittling them. I don't see how I've done that

June 23, 2009
4:32 pm
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marypoppins
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Je-sus! Glittered, I don't know why you addressed your post to me, too. I'm all FOR you and in agreement with your posts, including those about circular reasoning.

When I wrote, "You should know", I meant that Destiny knows all about grinding people down. I've seen her do it here for nearly two years now.

Destiny CAN'T give any examples of how you have been "grinding Christians down" because she simply said that to get at me. She has remarked before on this thread about how I'm running down Christians.

Destiny has slammed me 2 or 3 times on the Jesus thread. Bitsy advised her to stop, but she continues.

A year, or two years ago, something like that, after Destiny had goaded me and others over a period of time, I finally gave her a taste of her medicine. Many posters joined in to express their disapproval of Destiny, and she left the boards for a while.

Seems she still carries resentment about it and needs to strike out.

However, anyone who has been following this thread since it's beginning knows what has been happening here - and it's certainly not one-sided bashing.

Destiny wrote that this thread is a waste of time. Well, no one is forcing her to read it. And, she frequently tells others on other threads they should post whatever "their little hearts desire". Apparently, that doesn't apply to posters on this thread.

Good luck trying to get specific examples, Glittered, of any "bashing".

Mary

June 23, 2009
8:21 pm
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Mary - The "many posters" you refer to were all asked to leave this site. Them and their multiple nick names. I also saw them harassing the SC and saw you stand by their side and support them while they did it. They jumped on your Christen Bashing thread and the thread was removed. To prove how arrogant and disrespectful you are you put a similiar thread up again.

I dont think much of you for calling an entire group of people out based on their religion by using "Jesus" in the title of this thread to taunt them with. You make like your an expert on Jesus and like people have to defend their belief in him.

I will post whatever my little heart desires here. I dont care what you think.

Your hatred and jealousy towards me is eattng you alive. It is not healthy. I hope get the professional help that you need to get over it.

June 23, 2009
10:11 pm
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marypoppins
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Interesting twist on past and current events, Destiny. And jealous? not by a long shot

all the best to you in recovery

Mary

June 23, 2009
11:13 pm
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marypoppins

On the 22-Jun-09 you wrote:

"great questions, Tez, as always!"

Thanks Mary. I would love to see a survey done of all the sermons given today in all the Christian churches that ascribe to the use of the bible to collate, qualify and quantify their biblical references. My gut feeling that the vast majority of references would be centered on the new testament, therein avoiding most of the old testament, especially Leviticus, like the plague. Then the question begs answering as to why the old was included at all? Was it because of Christ's references to it? Why were so many other Hebrew scriptures not included? Was it because Christ's references to them were also excluded from the new testament? Why is it that Christians seem to believe that they have the full depth and breadth of Christ's teachings, lock, stock and barrel, contained within the bible? Is not what the bible contains of Christ's teachings only that which could be understood by the one dominant Christian faction that had all the political power?

The most powerful question is would Christ be a Christian if he was walking the earth today? Or would he be treating the Christian ministers today as he treated the pharisees in his day? If I remember my religious instruction correctly, Christ did call the pharisees 'whited sepulchres'- did he not? Hmmm! Were not the Pharisees the keepers and propagators of 'God's literal word' in their same scriptures that were copied into the modern day bible? Doesn't this make Christianity a break away sect still sitting uncomfortably under the banner of Judaism?

June 24, 2009
12:32 am
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Good evening!

Glitter, I read your post and I will remember in the future your sense of humor. I don’t think I am sensitive but the wording of some of your statements through me off... and as I stated before it seemed as if Christians are being called idiots or something.

Tez, your post about Christianity and its current position really has some truth in it. I am sure that Christ would treat a lot of Christian leaders of today like he did the Pharisees. They are in many ways behaving like they didn’t receive the message that Christ gave. Thank you for that revelation...

Mari

June 24, 2009
9:47 am
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Mari Kwante- You said "as I stated before it seemed as if Christians are being called idiots or something". Do ya think? That is the purpose of this thread to insult Christians and their intelligence. But, what it really is, is a reflection of someones deep seated rage and hatred towards them. I have said it before and I will say it again anytime a person runs down and entire group of people based on well in this case religion it is balantant discrimination. Discimination is something I personally refuse to tolerate.

Tez- I think you are simply BRILLIANT!

Glittered- I accept your apology and I am sorry if you think I was referring to you in my posts but I wasnt. I think your a good person.

June 24, 2009
12:18 pm
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glittered when he walked
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Sorry Maryp...I meant to address mariK.

MariK,

::scratching head::..well I still don't see how I've attacked christians just for being christians. Nor have I claimed that chritsians are idiots just for being christians. I'm sure there are some christian idiots...but I don't think any one faith/non-faith has cornered the market on idiocy.

My guess is that you take umbrage at some of my analogies using things like santa claus, the easter bunny, etc. But lest we forget, the ancient greeks worshipped zeus and host of other Gods...the Egyptians - Ra et al. I've used those analogies to focus on the LOGIC being used/misused and the easiest way to do that is to remove divinity from the equation so that it does not cloud the evaluation of the logic.

Again..if you can point to a specific instance where my wording has "thrown you off" I'll be happy to examine that as objectively as is possible and if I think I've erred or slighted an entire group I will certainly apologize. Otherwise, I'll assert that the shoe is on the other foot and that I am owed an apology for being wrongly accused of "belittling all christians" for merely being christians.

I can point to instances within this thread where I've stated "hey, if your faith makes you a better person, that's great."

June 24, 2009
12:44 pm
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glittered when he walked
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Destiny,

Well thanks. But did you feel like i was taking you to task over your faith, or belittling you? If not, well then I have nothing for which to apologize but we're both still OK.

You seem like a good person to me too. I included you and MariK in there because she originaly posted and that had me in some "bashing" group and you replied in such a way that you seemed to be in agreement with all of her sentiments.

June 24, 2009
2:39 pm
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"marypoppins
28-May-09

Yes, Bereft, that's another great and TRUE quote. There probably are large numbers of "men" who live their lives in this way.
So what?

I don't. That's all I have control over. And if you feel your life is remarkable and hope that heaven awaits, great! I would also like to believe there's a heaven - a place where I may meet up with people I've lost.

Mark Twain was right that many are killed or hurt in the name of religion. Organized religion is in large part about control and power and money.

But, religion helps a lot of people, too. Clearly, it helps you, Bereft. That's fantastic.

I'm not arguing with you anymore. It's futile, and it disturbed my inner peace. I'm okay with who I am and with what I believe. And there's nothing you can say or do to change that.

Grace and peace back at you!

Sincerely,

Mary"

"marypoppins
4-Jun-09

In Catholic school, we were pressured to revere the martyrs and despise the "doubting Thomases". We were shamed for questioning - using our brains, berated for our "sins", and threatened with hell.
There was some good stuff, too, though.

But thank goodness for freedom of religion.

I recall Guest writing that he believed people needed to realize that they have power within themselves. I think many people from abusive families already feel like worthless pieces of shit and are looking for acceptance. God is an easy sell at that point.

In my opinion, it's important for us to accept and love ourselves rather than give ALL that power away. Balance. "

Those are just a couple of posts I've put on this thread.

It's a waste of time and a clear sign of someone who just needs to make trouble to call this thread a bashing thread.

"Jesus is not the only way" is quite different than saying "Jesus is the wrong way" or "Jesus sucks". There ARE other religious beliefs. And they are just as important and worthy as Christianity. People can post "whatever their little hearts desire" about other faiths.

NO ONE on this thread has ever posted that ALL Christians are a particular way. Ma and Bitsy and Healing and Peace have all been acknowledged by me for showing me a very compassionate and loving side of Christianity.

Destiny, there is no discrimination going on here. It's clear to all what is going on. You're distorting this thread to try and run me down - stating several times now that I have a deep hatred for some particular group.

Why don't you worry about your own recovery and stay out of my business? You're not standing up for anyone here. You're making a fool of yourself.

If the SC ever had a problem with me or any of my threads, she would have contacted me to tell me so. She hasn't. YOU don't know what is in the SC's mind, so back off and worry about yourself.

Mary

June 24, 2009
3:39 pm
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bereft
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hey Tez, i guess there are a few of your posts that i'd like to comment on. first i'll start with June 21 and your question "which way is it" talking about all sorts of possible interpretations IF (it's a big if) if the Bible is not literally the Word of God. is that what you meant?

the Bible is God's Word, His disclosure of Himself and His will to man so one can assume that He meant what He said.

you didn't agree that with one of my three conclusions: "if there are errors in the Bible and Christ didn't let us know, He covered them up, then He's not a holy God." you added on June 16 that Christ knowing of errors in Scripture could have either "corrected or eliminated them" to which i answered it is the same as covering the errors up. you then changed your mind and wrote that "covering up" to you actually meant "trying to hide a part of scripture from any further criticism or unwanted attention because of its very controversial nature." is that correct? you didn't refute Jesus not knowing about errors in Scripture, nor did you refute that He covered them up (because it has a different meaning to you), so that leaves the third alternative that there are no errors in the Bible.

i'm wondering why, if you can't refute my conclusions, why you would write on June 17. " the bible does not contain lock, stock and barrel, absolute truth and flawless divine guidance in every word it contains." without belaboring the point, Jesus talked in Mark 12 about those who erred because they did not know the Scripture. of the 1800 quotations of Jesus in the New Testament, 180 or one out of ten come from the Old Testament. so it's very clear what He believed. and He believed what He said was truth.

getting back to June 21, you look at the Old Testament and wonder, what kind of a loving God would do that? you describe God as "unconditionally loving, all powerful, all knowing," but you fail to mention His holiness, righteous judgment and wrath. you get so distressed by this that you can't reconcile the God of the Old Testament with that of the New.

i admit, if you look at the Old Testament from a New Testament perspective, you will get confused. it's because we live under the goodness, mercy, and grace of God. we see God as unjust because we compare His justice with His mercy, not His mercy with His law. we cannot look at the Old Testament from the New Testament; we have to look at it from the beginning. and here enters the providence of God.

within your post you mentioned wanting to know the symbolic meaning of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in Genesis. in the Garden of Eden God clearly warned the first man, saying, "In the day that thou eatest (the forbidden fruit) thou shalt surely die" (Gen. 2:17). Romans 6:23 says, "The wages of sin is death." Ezekiel 18:4 says, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

i include this to show at creation all sin was a capital offense. yet, God was merciful. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, but they didn't die. they didn't receive justice; they received mercy. but there needed to be a substitute for Adam and Eve to satisfy God's justice, and Jesus Christ was that substitute. that pretty much ties the Old Testament and New Testament together.

if you compare the Old Testament with God's original standard, you'll see that the Old Testament is full of mercy. we are so used to His grace and mercy in getting away with our sins that we abuse God's goodness. whenever He does do what is just, we think He's unjust. that's how confused we are, and that's how we despise His goodness. the Jewish people of Christ's time had no such confusion about the attributes of God and they believed Scripture, therefore, they would not have had the same questions of the nature you have looking back from your perspective.

i cannot speak to why your religious leaders/teachers didn't speak to what you believe are controversial parts of the Bible. what you call a cover-up might more correctly be called ignorance or timidity. not very "Christ-like," i would say. however, instead of abandoning your faith, i would have advised you to seek out a church where they did address those areas head on as part of the exegesis of Scripture or perhaps consult reliable commentaries. that is our responsibility. i know for me having to face those gaps in my knowledge forced me to study.

i suspect the young mystic in you wanted "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" to symbolize something, but it was an actual tree, and it had actual fruit on it. there was nothing harmful in the tree itself because everything else was good, right? there was nothing harmful in the fruit of the tree. like everything else, it was "very good." but eating from it was very bad, because eating from it produced the knowledge of evil (man already knew good). the only way man could possibly eat of that tree was if he directly disobeyed God. and we know that sad story.

the question where Cain got his wife is constantly asked and the answer is simple: Cain married a relative. God didn't prohibit such marriage until later. for all human beings to have come from one family, there had to be intermarriage within that family at the beginning. Genesis 5:4-5 says that Adam lived 930 years and begat many sons and daughters. during 930 years those sons and daughters also gave birth to children. so Cain could have chosen his wife from a sizable number of people.

if the Bible is literally the Word of God and the word of Truth, there can only be one true interpretation. however, if there is no such thing as absolute truth, then anyone's interpretation can be as valid as the next. if there is no fixed truth, then there can be no discernable error, right? if everything is up for grabs and the words of the Bible don’t matter, or are only suggestions, or are at best equal to other religious books, then you can believe whatever you want. it is exactly the same attitude with which Pilate summarily dismissed Christ: “What is truth?” the problem with denying absolute truth is if you say there is no absolute truth, this itself is an absolute (and arbitrary) statement of truth.

time for a cup of tea and learning from your posts.

grace and peace

June 24, 2009
4:30 pm
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Glittered- Your a good person as far as I am concerned. Honestly I didnt even have you in mind when I posted in responce to her post and certainly wasnt referring to anything you have said. Hope you are staying cool this summer.

June 24, 2009
5:38 pm
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glittered when he walked
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Destiny,

OK. Yeah..I'm staying cool this summer..despite the A/C not working at work the other day...but no biggie..I know folks who'd be happy to have a job even if it meant no a/c.

June 24, 2009
5:55 pm
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glittered when he walked
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Bereft,

I live quite happily thank you very much. You are passionate, but you do not persuade. Saying something is so, doesn't make it so. So, enjoy the merry-go-round..I only popped in to dissuade others from being lured by circular reasoning.

June 25, 2009
1:24 am
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Glittered,

bereft almost had me convinced. Thanks for pointing out the importance of not being sucked in by the whole circular reasoning thing. Phew, close one! lol

I do know, however, that the Tooth Fairy is real though, cuz it says so in this here pamphlet I've got. If you don't believe me then you'll pay dearly, my friend!! Just wait n see!

That's no more ridiculous than the religious prattling we've been subjected to here.

Tez, I think you're whippin a dead horse here. Reason & logic have no place in Christianity. They mix like water & oil, not well at all. bereft has yet to demonstrate the capacity to respond intelligently. Taint gonna happen, bro. Just more of the same ol, same ol, dogmatic gibberish.

Nothing more.

June 25, 2009
5:17 am
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red blonde
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Just being curious and would like bereft's belief about Baptism.

June 25, 2009
9:51 am
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glittered when he walked
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red,

Should you wish to know the answer to that, then the pertinent question really is "What does the Bible/Jesus say about Baptism?"

CCO,

lol - you wise-arse...why I oughta... ; ) I would disagree with you on one thing though...bereft is not an idiot. His responses are at least written pretty well. I disagree with many of his arguments and I don't share his faith, but I wouldn't label his inability to conceed any points as unintelligent...rather I would point to it as being an unwise practice of extremism/slippery-slope-ism. But that's par for the course. I do wish though that he would acknowledge that he has implied/inferred that God exists because the Bible says so and that such a conclusion is not logically valid. Now I'm beating a dead horse. How wise is that? ; )

June 25, 2009
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hello red, please allow me to present the Christian explanation for this question. is there anything in particular about baptism i can help you with?

grace and peace

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