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Jesus isn't the ONLY way
June 3, 2009
5:15 am
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marypoppins
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Hmmm. So, if you want to know God's truth, you must admit that you're a fallen, sinful, prideful creature in need of redemption and accept JESUS.

You can't even expect to understand fully until you take this first step. It's a true leap of faith. If you don't believe in Jesus, you can't even RECOGNIZE spiritual truth because you're spiritually dead.

And if you think there are contradictions in the Bible, the inspired word of God, it's because you don't understand God, who is completely unknowable to non-believers.

God can still be perplexing even to believers because he is omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, and infinite.

The Jesus-ride is the one and only way to heaven. Believe anything else, and you'll burn in hell for eternity. Again, once you've accepted Jesus, you'll realize there's no other way and that all of this is true. And if you should have any doubts once you HAVE accepted Jesus, pray to him for the strength to believe in him.

June 3, 2009
11:16 am
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caraway
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blipity, blah, blah, blew.

Cary

June 3, 2009
12:08 pm
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StronginHim77
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Got it, Tez. Thank you, Mary.

I have been following this thread as best I can. Not accomplishing much, is it? I've never known anyone who came to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, simply because someone stated that the Bible said so or because they were "persuaded" (translation: argued/debated) into believing.

I didn't believe diddly-squat about Jesus Christ (beyond historical knowledge of His existence), until I had a personal encounter with Him. Until then, it was all just stupid words. And unprovable opinions.

So, I would encourage those who truly believe in Jesus to simply live their lives in a way that reflects the indwelling Presence of the One in Whom they have chosen to believe. That speaks VOLUMES more than mere words.

Also remember that the entire first century church was built WITHOUT any "Bible." Rather, it was built by the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (i.e., word of mouth), accompanied by signs and wonders (translation: miracles). The Gospel is always to be preached in "power and demonstration," rather than with the mere words of men.

When I lay hands on someone who is in pain, pray for him/her and the pain stops, they have a reason to look upward. When I pray for someone who needs a financial miracle or the healing of a broken relationship and they receive a miraculous breakthrough in either area, they look upward. That's how we are to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Not by beating people up with verses quoted from a book whose Authorship and authenticity is meaningless to them.

And yes...I am an ordained, Christian minister. But I believe debates such as the foregoing on this thread are fruitless exercises in futility for all concerned. One's spiritual beliefs are personal and frequently experiential. No one has ever made a genuine conversion to Christianity because someone whacked them over the head with a 10-lb. King James Bible.

- Ma Strong

June 3, 2009
12:54 pm
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bereft
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two questions have been posed: the first question is "How can you reconcile your belief in the existence of Satan, who supposedly was created and empowered by your God, with your belief that your God is all powerful, all knowing and infinitely loving and good?"

the second question is taken from Isaiah 45:7. “I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the lord do all these things” (KJV). the Christian God outright claims that he is indeed the source of evil. So how can he then claim to be sinless?" and following, "how can you reconcile your God creating evil with being infinitely loving and good?'

let me put it to you simply: God is not responsible for evil. His creatures are. everything that God created was "very good." everything. this is affirmed throughout Scripture (Hab. 1:13, Psalm 5:4, 1 Cor. 14:33, 1 John 1:5 and 2:16, James 1:13). God is not evil. God does not do evil. He cannot be tempted to do evil. He never tempts anybody else to do evil. God is not responsible for evil.

the source of evil, the source of sin, is outside God. when God created angels and God created humans, he gave them intelligence. He gave them reason, and he gave them choice. intelligence gave them the ability to understand things. reason gave them the ability to process that understanding toward behavior. and choice gave them the freedom to determine that behavior. bottom line: with what they knew, and with the ability they had to process that information, they would be brought to a choice. and whether angels or men, they would have the choice either to obey God or not to obey God.

let's go a little deeper. to disobey God was to initiate evil. evil is not the presence of something. evil is the absence of righteousness. you can't create evil, because evil doesn't exist as a created entity. it doesn't exist as a created reality. evil is the absence of perfection. it's the absence of holiness. it's the absence of goodness. evil became a reality only when creatures chose to disobey. evil came into existence initially then in the fall of angels (Satan). and then next, in the fall of Adam and Eve. evil comes into existence when God's creatures fall short of the standard of moral perfection.

now, let me take it a step further. God did not create evil. but God did decree to use evil as a part of his eternal plan. and what is evil but the absence of that good, which is a choice made by the reasoning based upon the information revealed to his creatures? He is not the cause of sin, nor is he the cause of sins in the lives of people. but he does use it for his purposes. and that's why in Isaiah 45:7 it says God creates "calamity." some older translations like the King James say He "creates evil." that is a really poor translation, and not true. God does create "calamity." and if you read the context of Isaiah 45:7, it is clear that judgment is the issue. God does not create evil, but God does bring judgment on evil, creating therefore the calamity by which evil is judged.

my question is did the atheist author from evilbible.com read newer translations of Isaiah and knew when she posed the question that "evil" was actually translated as "calamity" or "disaster" in her favorite NIV? ........ intelligence, reason, choice.

grace and peace

June 3, 2009
1:55 pm
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Hepburn
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You can discuss, quote, and rationalize all you want bereft, bottom line is YOU STILL think those of us who don't believe as you do are going to hell.

That's all I'm going to say. And please, someone whack ME in the head if I post on this thread again. 10 lbs. of anything will do.

June 3, 2009
3:18 pm
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One thing that I am curious about......

Why is it that some self proclaimed followers of God, Chrisitians, etc.who pray for their pain to go away or for their finacial woes to disappear have their prayers answered yet others do not?

For me....I don't need post after post after post of long winded google quotes. What I need is answers to very simple questions like the one I have asked above.

Why do some believers have their prayers answered while others are left to die painful deaths or to wallow in their misery?

And why is it that when good things happen it is "God's will" but when bad things happen it is "free will".

If God is responsible for the good that happens to people wouldn't common sense dictate that he would have to be responsible for the bad as well?

Why should he have his cake and eat it too?

I'm just sayin'......

June 3, 2009
3:29 pm
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THANK YOU Ma!!!!
Bereft I believe she is talking to you when she says something about whacking people on the head with a 10 lb King James Bible. You have been asked in every nice way to stop this and you won't.

Don't you realize that when you bang people over the head with your religion, it makes it harder for those of us who follow you to show a loving, kind God?

Lolli,

I don't know why God let's bad things happen to good people and I really want to know why He lets good things happen to bad people. I cannot explain it. All I know is that about 9 or 10 years ago I took a Kay Arthur Bible study on the Book of Habbakkuk which was sub titled When Bad Things Happen to Good People. I came to a peace with it and accept it as part of the universe. I have had a really hard time the past couple of years and just this morning my daughter had a melt down over all the things she has been deprived up over the past few years that all her friends have gotten. It made me feel like dirt. Eventually I know something will happen and turn it all around, BUT I also believe God helps those who help themselves, so Praise God and pass the ammunition...

Bitsy

June 3, 2009
3:55 pm
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lollipop3
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Hi Bitsy,

Although my questions were rhetorical in nature, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

I'm sorry that you feel like dirt for not being able to provide some things for your daughter that her friends have.

I am certain though that are doing the best you can and I hope you can find some comfort in that.

Take care,
Lolli

June 3, 2009
9:54 pm
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marypoppins
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Well, Bereft isn't the only one who believes those who don't accept Jesus as the one and only way to heaven will go to hell.

And I'll never embrace a God who sends non-believers, who are good people, to hell. That in no way says kind or loving to me.

Mary

June 3, 2009
11:41 pm
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marypoppins
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The murder of the doctor in Wichita, Kansas is another example of a horrible act done in the name of religion. He and his entire family lived their lives in fear, and the man was shot in church! His crimes? Helping women follow through with decisions about their own bodies, which in some cases, meant preventing the births of diseased and deformed babies.

I want no part of a God that would reward the man who killed this doctor.

June 4, 2009
12:24 am
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marypoppins
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In Catholic school, we were pressured to revere the martyrs and despise the "doubting Thomases". We were shamed for questioning - using our brains, berated for our "sins", and threatened with hell.

There was some good stuff, too, though.

But thank goodness for freedom of religion.

I recall Guest writing that he believed people needed to realize that they have power within themselves. I think many people from abusive families already feel like worthless pieces of shit and are looking for acceptance. God is an easy sell at that point.

In my opinion, it's important for us to accept and love ourselves rather than give ALL that power away. Balance.

But, to each his own - even Bible thumpers, some of whom seem to have a greater need to convince themselves rather than others.

Post away all.

Mary

June 4, 2009
10:54 am
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marypoppins
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I understand now that an important part of the beliefs of some fundamentalists is the inerrancy of their holy books, for example, the Bible. If one believes the Bible is without error and the inspired word of God, it makes sense he/she would quote/refer to it often as "evidence" or "proof". Though it may be with error, even meaningless, to others, to the believer, it has great power. It has taken me a while to not be bothered by that.

Mary

June 4, 2009
11:38 am
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StronginHim77
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Dear Mary,

This "Bible-thumper" (?) was raised a Roman Catholic, too. As a direct result, I was first agnostic, then borderline atheist by my late teens.

The legalism of that rigid religious system quenched any desire within me to connect with the God represented to me

June 4, 2009
12:27 pm
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Dear Ma,

I don't think of you as being a Bible thumper since you've written so much about the importance of experiencing God. Nonetheless, thank you for sharing about being raised Catholic. You understand what I'm talking about. I did feel throughout that time, however, that God was on my side, and I talked to him often. I believed he saw what was happening in our home, and I turned to him for comfort.

As I wrote, though, one of my major stumbling blocks with Christianity is that only those "saved" by Jesus go to heaven. I've met a lot of wonderful people from all over the world of different faiths. I work with them, and many are my friends.

Mary

June 4, 2009
4:11 pm
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Dear Mary,

I truly believe that anyone who "plays God" by pronouncing who will -- or who will NOT -- get into heaven (i.e., "be saved") is presumptious and in for a HUGE surprise. There will be many people there whom we thought could never possibly make it. Conversely, there will be many who were quite sure of their salvation, yet were blind to their true, spiritual condition.

I believe God meets us where we are at, so to speak. He longs to draw us closer to Him because He delights in us and loves having us "hang out" with Him.

Are there guidelines? Yes, I beieve (as a Christian minister) that everything Jesus spoke to us is true. So, I do my best to adhere to His Words.

However, I have stood at the deathbed and buried many people who do not share my beliefs. And I certainly look to God to be more merciful than we, humans, tend to be. I trust that He is just that: merciful.

- Ma Strong

June 4, 2009
8:25 pm
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Thank you Ma. You always express what I am trying to say. I cannot stand someone with a holier than thou attitude. I live by the saying, "If you really are a good Christian you don't have to tell anyone, they will know. And "If someone tells me how honest they are I hold onto everything I've got because they are about to rob me blind"

I see God almost every day in so many little things. Thank you again.

Bitsy

June 8, 2009
4:15 am
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bereft

Thanks for your efforts in putting together your response of 3-Jun-09. In it you wrote:

"let me put it to you simply: God is not responsible for evil. His creatures are. everything that God created was "very good." everything. this is affirmed throughout Scripture (Hab. 1:13, Psalm 5:4, 1 Cor. 14:33, 1 John 1:5 and 2:16, James 1:13). God is not evil. God does not do evil. He cannot be tempted to do evil. He never tempts anybody else to do evil. God is not responsible for evil."

Your God is not responsible for evil? This puzzles me.

Did your God not create evil as well as good human beings? Given that your God gave very limited 'free choice' to his creation, how can you claim that the Creator is not responsible for the way his creation behaves? If an engineer deliberately engineers the potential to both function and malfunction into his machine design is that engineer not to be held accountable for the malfunctioning machine and any damage that it causes? Compared to the omniscience, omnipotence and all good nature of your God we are but mere dumb machines by that comparison.

Is your God omniscient - meaning that the past present and future is completely known to Him in every intimate detail including the very depth of the damaged psyches of all human beings?

If so then why would He create the perpetrators of evil - Lucifer, Beelzebub,Ravan, Satan, Adolf Hitler, etc, knowing full well the choices that they will make in advance? Why would He allow Satan to tempt human beings to sin? Why would he let human weaknesses develop and flourish in the first place?

Do you believe that any human being, with the exception of a Buddha, is familiar with the deepest darkest contents and processes of his or her unconscious mind?

Do you believe that any human being, besides a Buddha, has full knowledge of the causes, motivations and ramifications of any of his or her thoughts words or deeds?

Do you believe that the following three pre-requisites for sinning are:

1. the sin must constitute a grave matter.

2. The sinner must have full knowledge that he or she is sinning as well as the underpinning unconscious driving force and psycho-dynamics of his or her errant unconscious processes.

3. Knowing fully well both of the above, the sinner must freely choose the sinful option over some more righteous course of behavior fully known to the sinner.

Or can someone sin without having the knowledge that his or her sin is grave matter, without knowing exactly what is driving him to perform the sin, or without giving his or her full consent to commit the sin?

Or is sin for you simply an open and shut case of breaking your God's rules irrespective of any extenuating circumstances, or states of ignorance?

June 9, 2009
10:08 am
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Ma,

I really like this way of looking at a relationship with God; makes sense.

"I believe God meets us where we are at, so to speak. He longs to draw us closer to Him because He delights in us and loves having us "hang out" with Him."

This is the part that I get confused about. I believe in God and that Jesus was a gifted teacher and on par with Mother Teresa and Gandhi. How do we know what Jesus actually said, and what of it was written down or later translated and edited to fit someone's personal agenda? Jesus was not popular with Kings, and Leaders of the time. I believe that the Bible contains great life lessons and guidelines, but not the "untainted" word.

"Are there guidelines? Yes, I beieve (as a Christian minister) that everything Jesus spoke to us is true. So, I do my best to adhere to His Words."

Just and observation.

Cary

June 9, 2009
10:27 am
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Dear Caraway,

I'm not the sort to "debate" on spiritual beliefs. Sufficient to say that my perspective would be different from yours because I was blessed to have MULTIPLE, personal encounters with Jesus. Because of these encounters, I know that I know that I know (deep inside my "knower") that He really is Who He said He is: the Son of God. It is an issue of faith, not intellectual rationalizing.

As an English major, minoring in history, I found the synoptic Gospels challenging because they lined up with supporting works of the same time period (such as the writings of the historian, Josephus) by historians who were NOT disciples of Jesus Christ. However, at the time of my studies, I did not believe Jesus was God, never having experienced Him personally.

That made the difference for me. Having experienced Him (and continuing to experience Him every day of my life), I am now a "believer" who soaks in His Presence every day and will never look back. I have peace, love and joy in my life. Those who are drawn to be part of my ministry experience Him in the same vein.

Empty religion does nothing for me. If I did not encounter Him, I would want no part of Christianity. I serve a very REAL God with all my heart because He is real. So, I completely understand the viewpoint of those to whom such faith is irrational or overly zealous. I held the same viewpoint, until He became a viable Person in my life.

- Ma Strong

June 9, 2009
1:41 pm
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Healing.. and peace
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StonginHIM,

I have to say, I really love how you put the knowing....."I know that I know that I know (deep inside my "knower") .... It is so difficult to explain this kind of solid knowing.

I understand your questions (((Cary)))
sometimes there are no real answers to some of our questions, it's our faith that gets us over some questions, and it is all fine to ask any questions you like, you may find the answers, and you may not, but as long as your faith is there, and you do believe if the answers are meant to be you will find them.

Peace to you, Healing and Peace

June 9, 2009
2:19 pm
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Ma and H&P,

Thanks for the thoughtful responses; I really don't want to try and prove/disprove anything here. I agree with your process and it makes sense when someone believes in something and can speak so clearly about it.

I think where the whole thing went wrong for me was being raised in a mixed religion household, and by folks who tried to force their views on me as a child. I think belief is so personal and all we need do is teach children good form bad and let them find their own relationship with a Higher Power.

For me, that has become a way of believing that fits the history of neither parent. I attend Religious Science services and believe in God. I had to find a place that would accept me as I am (a not so perfect person with good intentions) and go from there.

I do appreciate the need for faith and spirituality in a balanced and happy life, and I thank you both for your willingness to talk about it without quoting verse, etc.

Hugs to both of you...

Cary

June 10, 2009
10:49 am
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Dear Cary,

You have always impressed me as a "spiritually sensitive/tuned" person. (Not all people are!) I wish you every blessing in your quest for a personal relationship of your own with the Creator Who loves you.

- Ma Strong

June 10, 2009
7:32 pm
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From my perspective, this thread is about discussing whether or not Jesus Christ's reported teachings as contained in the Bible are the only way or path to follow in order to live a good and meaningful life.

I assert that there are a great many ways - perhaps as many as there are good, thinking people on this earth, each trying to find their own way through the maze of scriptural writings that the smorgasbord of life offers.

Huang Po taught this:

"People perform a vast number of complex practices

hoping to gain spiritual merit as countless as the grains
of sand on the riverbed of the Ganges:
but you are essentially already perfect in every way.

Don’t try and augment perfection with meaningless practice.

If it’s the right occasion to perform them, let practices happen.

When the time has passed, let them stop.

If you are not absolutely sure that mind is the Buddha,

and if you are attached to the ideas of winning merit from spiritual practices, then your thinking is misguided and not in
harmony with the Way.

To practice complex spiritual practices is to progress step by step:

but the eternal Buddha is not a Buddha of progressive stages.

Just awaken to the one Mind,

and there is absolutely nothing to be attained.

This is the real Buddha."

Hmmm! Rather than saying:"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect", perhaps Christ actually said "You are perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." This interpretation of Matthew 5:48 would be more congruent with Huang Po's profound words above. The early church fathers maybe took Christ's statement of fact as a command in order to reconcile their beliefs in their own inherent sinful nature with what they regard as the perfection of their God.

To add some balance, this writer below obviously does not agree with my interpretation of what Christ meant when he wrote:

"Jesus Demands That We Be Perfect like God (5:48)

What Jesus illustrated with graphic, concrete examples earlier in the sermon (vv. 21-47) he now epitomizes in a summary statement that forces us to go beyond mere examples. We can appeal to no law to tell us that we are righteous enough-that would be legalism. Instead, we must desire God's will so much that we seek to please him in every area of our lives-that is holiness. Jesus says that God's law was never about mere rules; instead, God desires a complete righteousness of the heart, a total devotion to God's purposes in this world.

That God becomes the standard of comparison suggests that Jesus' instruction here is exhortation, setting a goal, not assuming a state to which the hearers have already come. (The issue of whether any Christian is perfect is irrelevant here. All of us can learn to better reflect God's character; at the same time, God promises us power to overcome any given temptation; and if we can overcome any temptation, we should choose to say no to every temptation.) And as long as God represents the moral standard, none of us has room to boast; all of us must unite as brothers and sisters in need and seek God's kingdom and righteousness with all our hearts."

June 10, 2009
7:49 pm
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Here is another way:

"Liberation

~

I have thrown from me the whirling dance of mind

And stand now in the spirit's silence free,

Timeless and deathless beyond creature-kind,

The centre of my own eternity.

I have escaped and the small self is dead;

I am immortal, alone, ineffable;

I have gone out from the universe I made,

And have grown nameless and immeasurable.

My mind is hushed in a wide and endless light,

My heart a solitude of delight and peace,

My sense unsnared by touch and sound and sight,

My body a point in white infinities.

I am the one Being's sole immobile Bliss:

No one I am, I who am all that is." - Sri Aurobindo

June 10, 2009
8:51 pm
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St. Thomas Aquinas, the Christian Mystic, was able to quote large chunks of biblical scripture verbatim. He was a profound writer and a thinker. Yet in one moment of mystical experience he saw what reality was all about. He then made the profound statement:

" I can no longer write, for God has given me such glorious knowledge that all contained in my works are as straw - barely fit to absorb the holy wonders that fall in a stable," His writings are "barely fit to absorb the holy wonders that fall in a stable"????? Barely fit to absorb cow shit, that being a "holy wonder"???? Did Thomas Aquinas see the very magnificence of the nature of the quantum field that directs the sub-atomic energies into the patterns that form the atoms and thus the molecules that combine to form the structure that we know as 'cow shit'? Did Thomas see the very interdependence, inter-being of all things at this quantum level????

Never writing another thing, three months later Thomas Aquinas died.

Is the implication here that the mystical way of knowing is by far superior to all others? St. Thomas Christ's closest apostle obviously thought so from what he has written in his gospel. Perhaps both this apostle and St. Thomas Aquinas(at least at the end) were genuine 'imitations of Christ'?

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