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Jesus isn't the ONLY way
May 21, 2009
6:24 pm
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marypoppins
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Sirach is from the NRSV with the Apocrypha

"The NRSV (copyright 1989, Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America ), which has received wide acclaim and broad support from academics and church leaders, is truly a Bible for all Christians:
...
the NRSV is available in three formats: a standard edition with or without the Apocrypha...",

http://www.biblestudytools.com.....rsion.html

May 21, 2009
7:01 pm
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"The biblical apocrypha (from the Greek word ?p????f?? meaning hidden) are books published in an edition of the Bible whose canonicity the publisher either rejects or doubts.[1] For this reason they are typically printed in a third section of the Bible apart from the Old and New Testaments. In some editions they are omitted entirely.

A comparative list can be found in the article on books of the Bible. The biblical apocrypha are sometimes referred to as the Apocrypha. For extra-biblical works sometimes referred to, usually by Catholics, Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox Christians, as apocrypha, see the articles on apocrypha and on Pseudepigrapha.

Although the term apocrypha simply means hidden, this usage is sometimes considered pejorative by those who consider such works to be canonical parts of scripture."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha

May 21, 2009
7:13 pm
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"Bible Quote for May 22"

"Beat Your Children"

"Withhold not chastisement from a boy; if you beat him with a rod he will not die. Beat him with the rod, and you will save him from the nether world. (Proverbs 23:13-14 NAB)"

NAB= New American Bible

http://www.evilbible.com/May.htm

May 21, 2009
8:59 pm
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Healing.. and peace
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Mary

With all due respect, sometimes people read verses in the Bible, and they don't always understand what they mean. I do believe that many people have their own understanding of the Bible, or should I say Bibles out there, and it just depends on who you ask or what you believe. Since the Bible is written in parables it is difficult to understand the meaning of many verses.

My take on Proverbs 23:13 and that of a many people I know is, Spare the disapline, spoil the child. Meaning if we don't teach and give our children structure, and teach them they will not learn, they must receive some sort of disapline but not in a physical form, such as any sort of abuse. My understanding of this verse means disapline in the way of grounding them or teaching them when they do wrong, or act out, anyway this is the way I choose to look at this verse, and if we don't disapline our children they can end up to be very spoiled.

In no way do I understand this verse to be literal spare the Rod, spoil the child, I have asked this question myself and always I've received the same answer, the "Rod" is a word to disribe disapline, not a rod to spank with or hit our children.

Anyway this is my take on that verse and there are many other verses that also mean one thing but the way the parable is written it looks or sounds like it is saying something totally differant.

I'm not saying I'm right, just the way I understand it to be.

Healing and peace

May 21, 2009
9:15 pm
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marypoppins
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Healing and peace,

You're right. People do pick and choose from the Bible and put their own spin on it. The "spin" I'm citing is just as valid as any other spin.

America was not founded on Christianity, and I'm not going to "buckle under" because someone tells me I'm going to Hell.

"Bible Quote for May 23"

"Death for Cursing Parents"

"If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)"

http://www.evilbible.com/May.htm

May 21, 2009
9:27 pm
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"Bible Quote for May 10"

"God's Happy Killers"

"Praise the LORD! Sing to the LORD a new song. Sing his praises in the assembly of the faithful. O Israel, rejoice in your Maker. O people of Jerusalem, exult in your King. Praise his name with dancing, accompanied by tambourine and harp. For the LORD delights in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation. Let the faithful rejoice in this honor. Let them sing for joy as they lie on their beds. Let the praises of God be in their mouths,

and a sharp sword in their hands – to execute vengeance on the nations and punishment on the peoples, to bind their kings with shackles and their leaders with iron chains, to execute the judgment written against them.

This is the glory of his faithful ones. Praise the LORD!

(Psalms 149:1-9 NLT)"

http://www.evilbible.com/May.htm

May 22, 2009
3:34 am
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Mary,

Still hard at it, huh? Atta girl! Haven't been around to post lately. Work has gone from slow to inordinately busy the past couple of weeks. Working day & night these days. Feeling exhausted & fighting off a migraine ta boot so, pardon my lamenting. I feel like I've gotta "make hay while the sun shines" type o thing, ya know?
So, it's bed time for me now. Gotta rest my weary noggin.

Wishing you well, Mary(s) - you devil you!

May 22, 2009
9:51 am
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I think the point that someone made about the interpretation of scripture and people having their own versions of what a verse means is the point here.

The bible is a handbook, a guide for living, and should be used to provide comfort, inspiration, and used for good. If we can agree that this verse could be debated then why do so many use it to prove they are right and others are wrong? None of us will ever know for certain what was intended.

So, I would ask that folks who chose to ignore the literal interpretations that encouarge them to beat their children, pluck someone's eye out, etc., and other actions the don't want to take, NOT use that same verse to justify hate against people who differ in interpretation.

You believe what you want and I won't waste my time trying to "save" you, and you won't vote to take away my rights based on your version of Religion.

"Live and let live"

cary

May 22, 2009
10:24 am
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(((Craigco)))

Thank you for your post! I wish you well, too, and I hope you're able to keep that migraine at a distance and get some well-deserved rest after so much hay-making.

Mary

May 22, 2009
10:37 am
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lest we forget or are otherwise misinformed:

Patrick Henry (American Patriot)better known for his saying "Give me liberty or give me death," also said "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often, that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." (1799)

grace and peace

May 22, 2009
10:59 am
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marypoppins
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It would be nice, "live and let live", as Cary wrote. But that's not possible for those who want POWER.

Hitler was a Christian.

Bereft posted that she could NOT "live and let live". That she had to "sow seeds", or something like that, do God's work. And she wrote:

"you're saying because my literal view of the Bible is so basic, it's difficult to take it seriously? maybe i could just abandon literal interpretation in favor of mystical, allegorical, metaphorical kinds of interpretation that discard all hope of achieving accuracy and coherence if it would be easier for you to believe. i'll take that into consideration."

The Bible is full of contradictions:

for example...

"4.) God is seen and heard (Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/Ex 24:9-11)

God is invisible and cannot be heard (John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16)

5.) God is tired and rests (Ex 31:17)

God is never tired and never rests
(Is 40:28)

6.) God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things (Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21)

God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things
(Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8)

7.) God knows the hearts of men
(Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3)

God tries men to find out what is in their heart (Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12)

8.) God is all powerful (Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26)

God is not all powerful (Judg 1:19)

9.) God is unchangeable (James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19)

God is changeable (Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/Ex 33:1,3,17,14)"

http://www.evilbible.com/Bibli.....ctions.htm

But these and others will be dismissed by those who want POWER. Religious wars, big or small, are about control - power and money and influence.

Another quote:

"Don't think for one minute Christian fundamentalists are a bunch dumb rednecks, they aren't. Their main activists are rich, white, most are "baby-boomers, and their agenda is power and money. Their leadership is college educated and not a bunch of country bumpkins."

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/

Here is an example of the abuse of power to spread hate, in the name of Jesus:

"Pastor Fred W. Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church is being named The Retard of the Month for his bigotry against homosexuals, for his sexism, for his xenophobic statements against several countries, and for publicly showing disrespect and lack of sympathy towards victims of many accidents, natural disasters, murders and terrorist acts, including but not limited to the World Trade Center bombing on the 11th of September, 2001.

Christians generally oppose homosexuals acts, but this man takes his views to the extreme and actually advocates the death penalty for homosexuals acts. He and his congregation, mainly composed of family members, have organized thousands of pickets at various locations both in and outside of the U.S.A., in the last 10 years, preaching their hateful drivel against homosexuals and virtually anyone who disagrees with their insane religious beliefs or actions. During a demonstration, they display signs containing "GOD HATES FAGS", "THANK GOD FOR AIDS", "FAGS DIE, GOD LAUGHS", "AIDS CURES FAGS", "FAGS BURN IN HELL", "FAGS DOOM NATIONS", "GOD GAVE FAGS UP", "THANK GOD FOR 9/11" etcetera."

You can read more at http://www.evilbible.com/Retard.htm.

Mary

May 22, 2009
11:05 am
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marypoppins
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LEST WE ARE OTHERWISE MISINFORMED:

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..."

From Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli 1797. Unanimously ratified by the U.S. Senate and signed by President John Adams.

"...The VERY FIRST AMENDMENT of the constitution is based on the Separation of church and state.

The paramount reason why the forefathers came to this country was for religious freedom.

They listed it as their top goal in forming America.

Matter of fact most of the fore fathers weren’t even Christian, but deist, atheist and agnostic..."

http://www.evilbible.com/common_lies.htm

May 22, 2009
11:27 am
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bereft,

Also remember the great saying by an unknown scholar: "Give it a rest!"

I mean really, you believe what you want and stop tryig to change folks. Jews were born into Jewish faith and families, and many of the founding families were of other faiths.

This nation was founded because folks wanted religious freedom!!!

Cary

May 22, 2009
12:03 pm
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Cary,

I don't know why so many people throw the Bible out at others in attempt to prove them wrong, because to me that isn't being a Christian the way I believe at all.

I remember walking in front of an abortion clinic a couple years ago, and they were people holding up signs that said "Abortion is murder" and women that get Abortions will go to hell, all while quoting verses in the Bible... I know a few women that had abortions when they were young because they didn't feel they were ready to raise a child and in no way do I believe they will go to hell for they're rational decission.

I think your correct about the differant ways people understand the Bible, and I don't believe one person is right over the other if it was meant to be that everyone understood it the same way, then why wasn't it written in the way that we all could understand every single verse.

I perfer to look at the verses that I don't understand in a way that maybe one day I will understand, if not it isn't the end of my beliefs for one second, the Bible was written with so many parables that it is difficult to understand what many verses mean, so what I take out of them is what I take, if I'm incorrect then so be it, it's just my own understanding.

To me that is crazyness, for anyone to insist that their way of understanding the word is the only way of understanding the words in the Bible.

I have an uncle that believes that if you don't go to church every Sunday then you will go to hell, I feel he is incorrect and that it's not up to him to judge, so I could say the same back to him that he will go to hell for saying and making such a judgement call, but being who I am I don't say that nor judge him for judging others.

I believe that what is in our hearts is what matters most, there are certain things written in the Bible that I feel are accurate, and there are somethings that I just don't get, but that doesn't make me any less of a person or Christian as far as I'm concerned, nor does it make me any more of a person then those that don't believe a single word of the Bible. We are all equal the way I see it, strip down our cloths and take away the material world and we are all a like, we have male and female bodies, and we all have a mind, and a heart that feels. So that's how I look at others, not for what they do or don't believe or how they live their life, some people seem to find trouble in their life, and others don't but bottom line is we are all human, and we all can choose to live our life the way we choose to. I will never say that a person is doomed to a fire of hell, because I don't believe that God is a unkind God, I believe he loves all of us equally.

I kind of believe that hell is what people make of their own life here and now, if that makes any since?

I do believe there is life after death, and that we all will be reunited one day in a peaceful place here on earth, but that is only my belief and I'm not here to say that is the right way or wrong way to believe just my own belief.

Peace to you Lil bro, Healing and Peace

May 22, 2009
1:41 pm
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tedious, isn't it, Cary? i would love to give it a rest, and i have for a few days. some folks just can't for whatever reason. "the lady doth protest too much, methinks". - Shakespeare. conscience is not an easy thing to deal with, i guess.

the evidence for the U.S. being founded by Christians and the gospel of Jesus Christ is overwhelming. one would have to use very selective research (read "blinders") to make a case stating otherwise. it seems to me that any objective view of our country's history (or the Bible for that matter) should seek to reconcile seemingly contradictory passages, not fixate on a few selected quotes that fit their ideological agenda, while ignoring the preponderance of evidence. how does it seem to you?

i won't bore you with the history behind the Treaty of Tripoli. suffice as to say, Article 11 proves nothing about the founding principles of this nation and says nothing about to what extent Christian influence had shaped us or our government. noted by it's absence by those who would mislead you is the point that the Treaty remained on the books for eight years, at which time it was renegotiated, and Article 11 was dropped.

the article merely says that the GOVERNMENT of America is not founded on the Christian religion. this does not mean that our social and political network was not founded with Christian principles, or that Americans were not Christian to some degree. it merely addresses the government of America. why? because the phrase "founded on the Christian religion" would have a certain meaning to those whose nation was founded on the islamic religion.

ironically enough, i believe president Obama made a similar statement during his visit to turkey last month in his efforts to appease that islamic nation. check it out. history continues to repeat itself.

it's amazing that some who disavow America's founding as a Christian nation will quote (out of context) complex war-time negotiations and yet avoid the explicit words of our founders and government leaders made during the same period as the Treaty of Tripoli. here is what they said:

John Jay, the first chief justice of the United States, appointed by George Washington, wrote to Jedidiah Morse Feb. 28, 1797 (the same year the Treaty of Tripoli was ratified), "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

John Adams, America's second president and the same one who signed and sent the Treaty of Tripoli to the Senate, just one year later delivered these words in a military address Oct. 11, 1798, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

and to what religion is Adams referring? he gave us an answer when he wrote Thomas Jefferson June 28, 1813, "The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite. ... And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were united....now I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God..." not exactly what the muslims at Tripoli would want to hear. do you understand now why Article 11 was included?

Patrick Henry wrote to Archibald Blair Jan. 8, 1799,"The greatest pillars of all government and of social life: I mean virtue, morality and religion. This is the armor, my friend, and this alone, that renders us invincible." which religion was he referring to? see my post above.

Charles Carroll, a signer of the Constitution, wrote to James McHenry Nov. 4, 1800, "Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion whose morality is so sublime and pure… are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

John Quincy Adams, America's sixth president, spoke at an Independence Day celebration in 1837, "Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the corner stone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity…?

Andrew Jackson, our seventh president, pointed to a Bible as he lay sick near death in 1845 and said, "That book, sir, is the rock on which our republic rests."

grace and peace

May 22, 2009
2:34 pm
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"not fixate on a few selected quotes that fit their ideological agenda, while ignoring the preponderance of evidence. how does it seem to you?"

That is fucking hilarious!!!

That is the philosophy/strategy of certain Christian fundamentalists in a NUTSHELL - focus entirely on "nut".

Some people cannot be appealed to on a level of humanity. Perhaps it's because they no longer consider themselves "human" really - they're so darned special, even CHOSEN.

more contradictions in the Bible:

10. God is just and impartial(Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25)

God is unjust and partial (Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12)

11. God is the author of evil (Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25)

God is not the author of evil (1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13)

12. God gives freely to those who ask
(James 1:5/ Luke 11:10)

God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving them
(John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17)

13. God is to be found by those who seek him (Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17)

God is not to be found by those who seek him (Prov 1:28)

14. God is warlike (Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15)

God is peaceful (Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33)

15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious (Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19)

God is kind, merciful, and good
(James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8)

And this from an essay on George Bush:

"Mr. Bush's actions continue a long legacy of Christian stupidity and interference into legitimate medical research.

In the past couple of centuries Christians have rioted to prevent medical schools from using dead bodies to train medical doctors because they thought that autopsies might keep the dead from going to heaven.

Christians have fought in-vitro fertilization which has allowed millions of infertile couples to bear children,

and many of them are still fighting against sex education programs which include "safe-sex" techniques, such as condom use, which help prevent the spread of deadly diseases such as AIDS.

Many historians also think that Ronald Regan's slow response to the AIDS crisis was partially motivated by his Christian belief that AIDS was a punishment from God against homosexuals."

http://www.evilbible.com/

May 22, 2009
2:40 pm
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Healing and Peace (my sister, my friend),

I agree 100%, and believe in GOD; I guess that is enough for me. I like your view: "I kind of believe that hell is what people make of their own life here and now, if that makes any since?"

Just seems like some folks aren't happy to worship as they choose and leave others to their own very personal views.

Mary, Thanks for trying to point out the insanity here!

Hope you both have a great weekend!

Cary

May 22, 2009
2:45 pm
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((((Cary))))

You have a great weekend, too!

Mary

May 22, 2009
3:35 pm
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(((((STRONG IN HIM))))))))

May 22, 2009
3:38 pm
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INHO on this thread all MaryPoppins is doing is back and forthing in a negative way & I think it is getting out of control. I think information and discussion is welcome, but when I see MaryPopoppins start hacking away at Christens non stop that shouldnt be happening. I think it gets to the point where it doesnt feel safe anymore.

May 22, 2009
4:08 pm
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With all due respect - the hacking is in no way one sided. On the contrary.
Some dogma subscribers (sun worshippers) just don't like what they hear, so they want to shut it down because there clearly is no intelligent response available to them. The facts are in their face & they feel uncomfortable with that. Sadly, their best response is just the quoting of scriptures at best, which any knucklehead could do, & it proves absolutely nuttin what so ever. No one is forced to read or post here. Why hang around & then complain about it later? Not logical.

(Mare)

May 22, 2009
4:20 pm
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((((Craigco))))

More hugs from me. I'm grateful that you and Cary understand what I'm doing.

I've tried to convey to Ma and Healing and Peace that I appreciate the loving and more open-minded side of Christianity they've shown. Certainly, not all Christians are alike.

But if the shoe fits...

Take care, Craigco.

Mary

May 22, 2009
5:15 pm
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i appreciate your concern, Destinystar. although Mary can be intensely anti-Christian, i have no problem with her trying to express her ideological agenda in whatever fashion she chooses. as CC said, no one is forced to be here. we are here by choice. if you can't stand the heat, you should stay out of....oh, never mind. that's a choice too.

grace and peace

May 22, 2009
5:35 pm
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Yes, Mary can be very anti-narrow-minded, shaming, judgemental people. Some of whom are especially dangerous, as was Hitler.

grace and peace

May 22, 2009
5:43 pm
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bless you, Mary. always good for a laugh.

grace and peace

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