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Jesus isn't the ONLY way
July 9, 2009
10:24 pm
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Fantas,

There is no differance that's the thing, we are all alike. Just some believe one way and another in another way... Speaking for myself only, I wouldn't really be able to tell most of the time by the postings on many of the threads what or who people really are..or what they believe for sure, only very few do I feel they're post show who they are and where they are in their beliefs. They can write whatever but doesn't really mean that is who they are...that's just my take on it.

I kind of look at the Bible like well maybe it was meant for people to interpret it in so many ways, and each way is best for that one person... Who knows... it is said that God works on all of us in his own time and in his own ways, so maybe it's just God's plan for us to discuss this over and over again, and for each one of us we all learn or take something from it, and what we don't take from it we let it go.

Healing and Peace

July 10, 2009
8:18 am
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I will give you MY literal interpretation of God or the Holy Spirit talking to me.

I moved into my dad's house after he died. I have been struggling for the last year to hold on to it. I spoke with a friend who owns a mortgage company. He told me to walk away from the house, it was costing me too much money and my name wasn't on it so it wouldn't hurt me. I talked to my stepbrother who is an attorney and he told me the same thing. I talked to a financial planner and told him what I had been told. He agreed. I finally received foreclosure papers because they had all also told me to stop paying the mortgage to try to get the bank to talk to me. I took all my papers and talked to an attorney who is licensed in my state and he told me to let them foreclose and when they served me eviction notice to let him know and he would get me 7 more days to move out. I went home and cried. I was overwhelmed. Part of me still didn't want to do it.

Tuesday morning I walked into my living room and there was water all over the floor. Coming down the walls. The ceiling was wet. The hot water heater is in the attic.

To me that was God saying: I have had all these people tell you to walk away. What else do you want???? So I went to the liquor store...you thought I was going to start drinking didn't you?....and got some boxes and started packing.

It works for me!!!

Bitsy

July 10, 2009
10:19 am
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H&P,

I really like that view of God and the Bible; God is all knowing, so it really makes sense.

Thanks for adding some wisdom to this otherwise tired thread.

Cary

July 10, 2009
10:43 am
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Dang Cary, I thought you were talking to me. ūüėČ

Bitsy

July 10, 2009
12:05 pm
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Bereft,

Dead?

July 10, 2009
12:19 pm
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Objective reality?...ha ha..good luck with that one.

Is that in the book of Smarmy 1 or Smarmy 2?

July 13, 2009
2:35 pm
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Bitsy,

The "tired" part wasn't directed at you.. I like your logic here. Sometime we fight doing what everyone and "everything" is telling us to do.

Maybe God was trying to tell you something.

Did you get moved?

Cary

July 13, 2009
10:58 pm
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Bereft wrote:

"in other words, the Spirit all of a sudden gives dramatic life to a truth."

Yes, this too has been my past experience. I had a series of cassette tapes many years ago made by a Catholic priest in the U.S. In this tape this priest said: "... trust in the holy spirit to lead you where you need to be". When I was asked to go to a meditation session for the first time by a fellow Christian who was looking to learn how to meditate, I did just this. So ... us two good little Christians, in being led by the Holy Spirit in our search for truth, went to a Brama Kumaris Raj Yoga meditation session. I suddenly saw "dramatic life in the truth" that they had to offer. Yes the "Holy Spirit" led me all the way out of the bondage of my then fundamentalist Catholic thinking into yet another trap of the same ilk. I finally realized that this so called "Holy Spirit" was my own unconscious mind seeking to find its own authenticity in regard to its own beliefs rather than blindly taking on board superstitious non-sense against which it was rebelling. Ahhh ... such is the power of one's own mind.

I'm sure that the founder of every breakaway Christian sect sincerely and powerfully believed that he was being lead by the 'Holy Spirit' to start the splinter factions that now form the main stream protestant Christian religions.

But if you watch EWTN, Raymond Arroyo will patronizingly encourage all you misguided Christian souls who belong to the wrong Christian faiths not to lose heart.

Not to worry, even Buddhists can get to heaven. Mother Angelica says so.

"... On another show with Mother Angelica, Alice Von Hildebrand (a frequent guest on EWTN)
bluntly asserted that one can get to Heaven as a Buddhist. The way it was stated not only
indicated that Buddhists can be saved (which is heresy, of course), but that there is no obligation
whatsoever for a Buddhist to be a Catholic. In the face of this tremendous heresy and religious
indifferentism, which was asserted right in front of her face, Mother Angelica posed no objection,
and even commented with approval. Mother Angelica and EWTN have always been defenders
of the heretical teachings of Vatican II."

There appears to be dissention in the Christian camp. See this pdf document for the source of the above quote.

So it seems that Mother Angelica, the founder of EWTN, thinks that Bereft is indeed wrong in believing that I am going to hell when I die just because I'm not a Christian! I feel much better now.

So according to Mother Angelica, Jesus appears to not be the only way for a person to be 'saved' from the hell fires of everlasting damnation. Buddhism can do that job as well! So Mother Angelica either obviously doesn't think that the bible has to be taken as containing literal truth or that only one interpretation is possible in gleaning Christ's message from it.

July 14, 2009
12:58 am
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Bereft.

You are maintaining the position that the Christian bible, in containing the literal, unequivocal word of your God, is not open to different interpretations - are you not?

Here is an example of two vastly different interpretations of Ephesians 5:33 in the new testament.

See below the latin word used in the original text is 'timeat'.

33 Ver√ļmtamen et vos s√≠nguli, unusqu√≠sque ux√≥rem suam sicut se√≠psum d√≠ligat : uxor autem t√≠meat virum suum.

timeat (3rd sing, pres subj)
timeo, timere, timui, - vb
fear, dread, be afraid (ne + SUB = lest; ut or ne non + SUB = that ... not);

This is interpreted correctly as 'fear' in the Douay-Rheims version of the bible. However, it is incorrectly and loosely interpreted to mean 'respect' in the (New International Version). Given that the bible is the literal word of your God and is unequivocal, the two texts for Ephesians 5:33, when placed side by side, present a very different picture of what your God wants.

(New International Version)Eph 5:33
33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

(Douay-Rheims Version)

33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband.

Has the womens' liberation movement caused the reinterpretation of this biblical quote? Or did your God get it wrong in His original Vulgata Clementina version? Hmmmm!!!

Since you previously criticized me for not giving the full context, below is the complete biblical quote both in English and in Latin(my favorite subject at school ūüôā ).

Ephesians 5:22 - 33

(Translated Duoay-Rheims Version)

" 22 Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: 23 Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: 26 That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. 28 So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. 29 For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: 30 Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. 32 This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband.

(Non-translated original Vulgata Clementina version)

22¬†Mul√≠eres viris suis s√ļbdit√¶ sint, sicut D√≥mino¬†: 23¬†qu√≥niam vir caput est mul√≠eris, sicut Christus caput est Eccl√©si√¶¬†: ipse, salv√°tor c√≥rporis ejus. 24¬†Sed sicut Eccl√©sia subj√©cta est Christo, ita et mul√≠eres viris suis in √≥mnibus. 25¬†Viri, dil√≠gite ux√≥res vestras, sicut et Christus dil√©xit Eccl√©siam, et se√≠psum tr√°didit pro ea, 26¬†ut illam sanctific√°ret, mundans lav√°cro aqu√¶ in verbo vit√¶, 27¬†ut exhib√©ret ipse sibi glori√≥sam Eccl√©siam, non hab√©ntem m√°culam, aut rugam, aut √°liquid huj√ļsmodi, sed ut sit sancta et immacul√°ta. 28¬†Ita et viri debent dil√≠gere ux√≥res suas ut c√≥rpora sua. Qui suam ux√≥rem d√≠ligit, se√≠psum d√≠ligit. 29¬†Nemo enim umquam carnem suam √≥dio h√°buit¬†: sed nutrit et fovet eam, sicut et Christus Eccl√©siam¬†: 30¬†quia membra sumus c√≥rporis ejus, de carne ejus et de √≥ssibus ejus. 31¬†Propter hoc rel√≠nquet homo patrem et matrem suam, et adh√¶r√©bit ux√≥ri su√¶, et erunt duo in carne una. 32¬†Sacram√©ntum hoc magnum est, ego autem dico in Christo et in Eccl√©sia. 33¬†Ver√ļmtamen et vos s√≠nguli, unusqu√≠sque ux√≥rem suam sicut se√≠psum d√≠ligat¬†: uxor autem t√≠meat virum suum.

timeat (3rd sing, pres subj)
timeo, timere, timui, - vb
fear, dread, be afraid (ne + SUB = lest; ut or ne non + SUB = that ... not);

Now let us look at this version of the same quote!

Ephesians 5:22-33 (New International Version)

22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church‚ÄĒ 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[b] 32 This is a profound mystery ‚ÄĒ but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

July 14, 2009
2:17 pm
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Tez says, "...us two good little Christians, in being led by the Holy Spirit in our search for truth, went to a Brama Kumaris Raj Yoga meditation session."

talking about apostates, Paul says in 1 Tim. 4:1,2: "...in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron..

continuing.....

Tez says, "Not to worry, even Buddhists can get to heaven. Mother Angelica says so."

warning about religious decoys, Paul says, "But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you put up with it easily enough" (2 Cor. 11:3-4).

no matter what bereft says, or mother angelica says, or you think, or anyone else claims, Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

grace and peace

July 14, 2009
3:16 pm
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first of all, Tez, you'll will need to learn the difference between translation and interpretation, okay? nonetheless, i'll try to clarify some points for you. i apologize that i'm not up on all the catholic versions of the bible out there.

the Douay-Rheims bible (wiki) "is a translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate into English.....(in other words) a translation of a translation of the Bible. Many highly-regarded translations of the Bible still use the Vulgate for consultation, especially in certain difficult Old Testament passages, but nearly all modern Bible versions go directly to the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. The purpose of the version, both the text and notes, was to uphold Catholic tradition in the face of the Protestant Reformation."

of the 12 versions of the Bible i've looked at this morning, including your DR catholic version, all the other versions used either "reverence" or "respect." i guess if you want us to consider one catholic translation of a translation that had an axe to grind pitted against many literal versions that were translated from the original greek, i see your point. otherwise, fear (Gk., phobeo) can also mean "reverence" or "respect." but this kind of fear refers to a healthy reverence of wives to their husbands, a healthy regard for truth, and a healthy respect for the person being spoken to. please try not make it out to be dysfunctional based on the womens' liberation movement. most of us here are enlightened and have evolved past that bias.

by the way, did you notice how this New Testament passage was quoting Genesis?

grace and peace

July 14, 2009
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Bereft`

Thanks for your posts.

"... against many literal versions that were translated from the original greek, i see your point...."

Phew! It feels like pulling teeth. I guess that I should be grateful that you at least conceded that much.

By the way, just because most of the many versions of the protestant bibles are derived from translations of the Greek versions of the old scriptures rather than the Roman(Latin) versions does not mean that they have a better chance of getting Christ's authentic message! Neither Christ nor his earliest followers were Greek anyway! Paul was a citizen of Rome! Romans spoke and wrote Latin!! The modern day Christian church is the Roman derived Pauline Church. If you want the authority of Greek Christianity then you had better go to the Eastern Greek Orthodox Church. Oh! That really opens up another source for Christ's message that seems to have been largely ignored by you. Why? Have you looked into the Greek and Russian Orthodox church scriptures? What about the Coptic Church scriptures? If not why not?

Just for a moment consider the reason why so many bible translations exist. Each new translator must have considered the previous translations inadequate in some way. Otherwise why would they bother???

This is before one even interprets these multiple translations for their supposed meaning. So much for your book 'interpreting itself'. Next you will be saying that your book 'translates' itself as well.

Consider this biblical statement as being the literal word of your God:

" 1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. 2 And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters. 3 And God said: Be light made. And light was made. 4 And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness. 5 And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day. 6 And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament, Heaven; and the evening and morning were the second day. 9 God also said: Let the waters that are under the heaven, be gathered together into one place: and let the dry land appear. And it was so done. 10 And God called the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, he called Seas. And God saw that it was good."

What language was your God using in naming the water, 'Seas', the land, 'Earth', the firmament, 'Heaven', etc? Hebrew?? Surely not Greek or Latin??

Assuming that you go to heaven when you die will you go up into the firmament? Your bible says that the firmament is Heaven. What part of the firmament will it be in which you will reside? The moon? Remember that you said your bible can be taken literally. So that is what I'm doing in framing my questions!!! If you consider that I am splitting hairs then explain who gets to decide when literary license can be taken in interpreting the various translations and when it can not????

You also said:

"...but this kind of fear refers to a healthy reverence ..."

Hmmm!!! In reference to fear, what would you class as an unhealthy reverence? Respect based upon fear is the kind of respect that I have for a snake, a hungry lion or a scorpion. Is this what your God wants? A wife to 'respect' her husband out of fear of getting a 'bunch of fives' for not submitting to her husband? The old idea of conjugal rights in a Christian marriage required a woman to give a man sex irrespective of whether she wanted it or not! In my lifetime, I remember this situation well - rape of a wife by her husband was not taken seriously by police at all not so long ago!! This Christian bible reference underpinned this evil piece of misogynous nonsense. Everyone knows how middle eastern men treat their wives. Many things haven't changed since the bible was written.

I suppose now you will accuse me of an ulterior motive such as trying to inflame support from offended Christian women here? Don't even go there! There are women here in the age bracket of which I speak who know only too well what I'm talking about. My point is that: not all that the bible contains is 'kosher' let alone the literal word of your God/Christ/Holy Ghost. You need to get over your fundamental extremism in whatever endeavor you partake - especially your religious beliefs. Were you also a fanatical, fundamentalist atheist before you were proselytized? Take the middle road, bro ...

July 17, 2009
2:35 pm
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Tez,

I admire your fortitude, but at the end you've come to the accurate realization re:
" You need to get over your fundamental extremism in whatever endeavor you partake - especially your religious beliefs. Were you also a fanatical, fundamentalist atheist before you were proselytized? Take the middle road, bro ... "

That is what has been observed. You're bangin your head against it. I mentioned the same to bereft a good while ago...for him there is black and white (no grey)...there is 0 and there is 10..there is no five. But what I'm thinking is "But this one goes to eleven."

August 6, 2009
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Tez,

You mentioned that you'd found another site that suits you better, so I don't know if you'll even read this. However, I wanted to thank you for your posts and your intelligence, courage, kindness, and willingness to open your mind and heart. You have been an inspiration.

Love,

Mary

August 7, 2009
5:55 pm
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for Tez

August 7, 2009
6:13 pm
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Thanks for your kind words, Mary.

Yes, I have visited and posted on another site very infrequently over the last year.

In recent times, I have disengaged from this site. I guess that old flame wars have left their scars upon my psyche. This is a reflection upon me much more so than upon either the site itself or the people presently posting here.

Thanks again for your caring remarks.

August 7, 2009
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Tez,

I'm not surprised that you would be so careful about taking responsibility for your own issues. However, during my years on this site, I've never seen you among those denying their own issues or blaming others. Perhaps you are further along in recovery than those who are so easily threatened.

I wish you all the best and thank you for your thoughtful posts on this thread and all of the other threads on this forum over the years.

Peace.

Mary

August 10, 2009
1:48 am
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Tez, those scars are battle wounds of life. Wear them with pride.

August 12, 2009
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Yea Tez,

I too think that you're a genuinely positive & thoughtful contributor to this site. Both learned & tactfully honest. Some of us folks should be more that way.

Appreciatively,
CrgCo

August 12, 2009
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Hey Mary P! Hope all's well?

August 12, 2009
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Hi CraigCo,

Yes, all's well. All's great, in fact.

How are you?

Mary

August 13, 2009
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Fair ta middlin' I suppose. Took my Dog to the vet. Spent a bunch of dough there. At least the poor guy isn't going to have to be terminated yet. Unlike my pocket book. Rained out from working for the umpteenth time. So yea, that makes me a tad cranky. Ah well, we'll just see what the future brings. Decent weather & steady work I hope. At least absence from work gives me more time to effect repairs, maintain & upgrade my mother's house as it's up for sale on account of her being late on one payment & is now facing foreclosure. None of us kids ever thought that would happen. It's a lot of stress on her & in her seventies ta boot. Tough to watch.

So, you sorry you asked? he-he

Glad things are great with you. That's refreshing news to hear. So, keep doin what yer doin, I guess, huh?

August 13, 2009
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Hi CraigCo

Is your mom going to fight the foreclosure or is she going to sell for a profit?

If she's upside down, may as well fight it. One payment and they just send a notice of intent to foreclose.

If she's going to fight it, I can share what I've learned- went through these ropes. I was able to stay in my house for nearly 11 months and save quite a bit of money before I had to move.

My thoughts are with you, this is indeed stressful.

andii

August 13, 2009
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andii,

Appreciate your concern.

She is currently caught up on the mortgage but is now apparently on the hook for over 6 grand for the mortgage companies legal fees. Even if or when she pays them, her mortgage comes up for renewal in March & the mortgage company has no interest in renewing it. Other potential lenders are reluctant to remortgage it for her as they're afraid that she hss overextended herself financially. So, it's kind of a "sell or loose everything" scenario.

As she has close to $100,000 in equity built up (according to the appraisal) it's a financial life or death situation. It's been on the market for a few weeks now but no takers yet. Should she be unable to sell it, the mortgage co. claims that they will sell it in Dec. at about $12,000 above what's presently owing on the mortgage. Leaving her with basically nothing.

My brother, sister & I are doing everything within our means to help facilitate the sale. It's just that things are sort of slow in the housing sales arena these days so, who knows what will happen at this time?
I guess we'll just have to see.

August 14, 2009
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Hi Everyone!

Just have a question and need some of your thoughts and opinions...

What does it mean or what is the meaning of "God's Witnesses" or being "one of God's Witnesses"?

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