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Jesus isn't the ONLY way
July 3, 2009
3:27 pm
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fantas
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Tez,

I do not see a correction but an explanation and elaboration. These people are trying to trap Jesus and see if He will trip Himself by saying the law isn't valid. He not only affirms the status of the law, but He makes it impossible for them to cause divorce based on some tramped up notions. The Pharisees knew the answer to this question and wanted to see if Jesus would commit heresy by claiming a new law.

They were convinced that His purpose was to negate the Judaic laws since He claimed to be the Promised One, the Messiah who was going to build a new kingdom. They didn't understand that Jesus was talking about a spiritual kingdom with spiritual laws not the one the were in. They were too caught up in power, traditions, and doctrines to see the Glory that was living right in their midst.

Such is the plight of the spiritually deaf, asleep, blind, and unaware.

July 5, 2009
7:04 pm
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"Matthew 5:14 (King James Version)

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

John 1:9

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

Echart Tolle categorically states that the Buddhist doctrine of sunyata or the 'Emptiness'(not nothingness) from which all potentials that are manifest, come, is the same 'reality' to which Christ was referring in the biblical quotes above. Tolle thus maintains that "Jesus isn't the only way" as this thread maintains.

Is this not so??

July 5, 2009
9:02 pm
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soofoo
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Fantas,
I didn't mean that Jesus Christ flagrantly disregarded the law, just that it really wasn't necessary for him to follow the letter of the law, He is the spirit of the law.

Bereft,

Okay, that is one way of looking at it, I guess. That Jesus was correcting their understanding of scripture.

About the cover-ups and stuff-- I tend to believe that there has been some editing of the bible. What do you think about that? This does not mean that it isn't still a holy work and that the message isn't still clear and true. There is some disagreement. The Catholic bible includes books that are not in any other bible. Good ones actually, check it out!

July 6, 2009
4:11 pm
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bereft
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fantas, great response. don't you marvel how Jesus went back to the Old Testament and says, listen to what God said - what God said is this,... so, what Jesus is doing is taking them all the way back to the beginning and instead of losing credibility with the people, He gains it, doesn’t He? because all He says is what God said in the Bible and makes the Pharisees look stupid by saying - haven’t you read this? this is Jesus teaching by using the Old Testament as God's Word.

grace and peace

July 6, 2009
6:12 pm
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bereft
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Tez, you may be surprised that i've owned and actually read two of tolle's books. don't think i would have given his books or tolle any attention at all had he kept Jesus and the Bible out of them. maybe that's why he did. who knows?

i'm not surprised tolle would make such nonsense from the symbolism of "light" in the Bible. in the intellectual sense, light in the Bible symbolizes truth. in the moral sense, it refers to holiness. therefore, living in light means living in truth and in holiness. what this has to do with "sunyata," as emptiness (the world is devoid of inherent existence) only Tolle knows. do you see a connection?

so too, tolle claims that when Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life,” he meant to say “the very Being that you are is Truth.” he was speaking of the “I AM” that forms “the essence identity of every man and woman, every life-form in fact.” and that this is the same as our “buddha nature” our “atman” or “the indwelling God.”

according to tolle, not only this, but when Jesus told us to deny ourselves, he meant to say that we were to “negate … the illusion of the self." similarly, when Jesus referred to “eternal life” he was actually referring to “the dimension of the formless within” you. and, most fantastically, when Jesus died on the cross he was giving us “an archetypal image” of how our evolving consciousness is “burning up” our “ego.

i think you get my point.

somehow Tolle is able to say with all seriousness, Jesus’ contemporaries and subsequent generations of followers of Christ have all misunderstood Jesus, and now he is going to explain him for us.

you would have to believe that tolle has some special insight into what is accurate and true in the New Testament and what is not. you would have to believe that tolle is able to pick out of the New Testament those things which Jesus really taught and those things which he did not teach.

what would you say of someone who would draw these conclusions about Jesus without any supporting evidence or argumentation?

grace and peace

July 6, 2009
10:08 pm
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glittered when he walked
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Some of you may love this..some of you may be apathetic...some of you might laugh...maybe some would be angered. But I thought I'd share it. here it is:

I went to church this weekend.

Allow me to explain...my mother adheres strongly to her faith and she's an awesome woman so I don't let on to her about my agnosticism..but i haven't gone to church in years either. She's my mom and her faith means a great deal to her so yes...i placated her by going to church when she told me she was having a mass for deceased father. It's important to her...so i went...I figure things like that are bigger than I am.

So i go to the church which i attended as a kid. So rather than sitting there in a negative mind set about the BS being heaped at people in the name of religion..I just observed the congregation. Call me an optimist but what i saw where older folks bowed with labor and age...just hardworking honest folks by appearances. It was nice to see. it reaffirmed my opinion that if this makes them better people, then so be it..for them. Just wanted to share.

No cause to be upset..I'm NOT here to tell you that I "found" jesus...rather what i found was some apparently decent people and a reaffirmation of my humanist philosophy. I haven't changed my ways nor will i and i won't become a member of any faith any time soon (barring a miracle of course 😉 ).

Peace
GM

July 6, 2009
10:10 pm
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glittered when he walked
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CraigC,

I think in this particular thread that you and I are of a like mind.

July 7, 2009
7:14 am
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Bereft.

You wrote:

"i'm not surprised tolle would make such nonsense from the symbolism of "light" in the Bible. in the intellectual sense, light in the Bible symbolizes truth. in the moral sense, it refers to holiness. therefore, living in light means living in truth and in holiness. what this has to do with "sunyata," as emptiness (the world is devoid of inherent existence) only Tolle knows. do you see a connection?"

You have shown above at least two senses in which the use of the word "light" in the bible can be interpreted. Tolle has given yet another deeper meaning that has just as much or as little validity as those that you stated.

Whilst he may not be correct in his interpretation, I would have to disagree with you that Tolle's interpretation is nonsense. Though I can see why you, in coming from a fundamentalist Christian perspective, might think this.

I can see the connection between Tolle's interpretation of Christ's "light" and the Buddhist doctrine of "sunyata". Of course if you think that you and Christ are totally separate, individual entities that came into existence at birth then you would never understand Tolle's perspective.

When you wrote:

"... sunyata," as emptiness (the world is devoid of inherent existence) ..."

I suspect that you have not understood the Buddhist doctrine of sunyata at all. But I only suspect this and am not convinced that my suspicion is warranted. Do you think that Buddhists believe that the world doesn't exist except in the mind - that there's nothing out there, as it were?

July 7, 2009
7:17 am
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Glittered, before anyone else jumps on this...I am not offended. A church is also a community and that is what you witnessed. You probably left feeling good about the day and if that is all and you didn't have a Great Epiphany that is good too.

Bitsy

July 7, 2009
3:06 pm
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bereft
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the difference, Tez, is that the Bible interprets itself. those were not my interpretations. "light" in the intellectual sense is illustrated in Proverbs 6:23, Psalm 119:105, and 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, 6. morally it is illustrated in Isaiah 5:20 and Romans 13:12-13. however, tolle simply pulls sentences out of their grammatical and historical context and tries to use them to buttress his world-view.

tolle’s god is not the personal, eternal, self-sufficient, holy God of the Bible. tolle’s god is a presence, an essence, a consciousness that is in everything. it is pantheism. since you're an atheist, i know you can't believe what tolle says.

to tolle, Jesus was not unique as the Son of God. according to tolle, what Jesus discovered about himself is what is, or at least could be, possible for every human if they are awakened, right? when Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life” he was not saying something uniquely true of himself, right? He was actually pointing us to the truth about ourselves. yeah, right. these are the things tolle believes about Jesus. this is not the Jesus of the Bible.

to tolle Jesus is not God – at least not in the sense understood by orthodox Christianity. tolle cannot think of Jesus as God in that way because to him God is not a personal being. God is an essence, a presence and consciousness that has become unconscious. we are all god, we are all the "I Am." God is in everything and everyone and everyone and everything possesses this “being.” God is not a person to tolle. since tolle’s view of God is distorted his view of Jesus must also be distorted.

i find it incredible that the same people who will declare the Scriptures, including the words of Jesus unreliable, will then use the words of Jesus as recorded in those same books as a basis for their claims. don't you hate that? i mean, at least be consistent. either declare it all worthless or accept it all.

tolle didn't give a deeper meaning to light by trying to attach it to sunyata. he gave a "no-sense" meaning, a meaning you have yet to explain. the Bible has already interpreted what it meant by what it said.

come on, Tez, explain to us what tolle meant. don't worry, according to tolle, "Nobody is wrong. It is the ego in someone, that’s all.” give it a shot. in fact, let's all say what it means to us.

however, the Bible declares that Jesus is the Son of God as the eternal Son of God who is himself deity. He pre-existed his birth, created the world, was a person prior to his birth and took a human nature upon himself at his birth. that is quite different than anything i could say about myself. Christ and i are totally separate, individual entities, yet, He lives in me.

finally, there is No-thing to understand about sunyata (haha, i amuse myself). it's not an emptiness represented as some thing outside of being and other than being. it's not an empty Nothing. it's an Absolute Nothing. what do you mean by mind? mind does not belong to the categories of being and nonbeing, but is absolute thusness. thus, your question either exists or it doesn't. however, i post, therefore, i am.

grace and peace

July 7, 2009
3:25 pm
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bereft
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glittered, i wouldn't be riding down the road to Damascus any time soon if i were you.....

grace and peace

July 7, 2009
5:44 pm
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Healing.. and peace
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Bereft,

Have you experienced an enlightment, transformation, spiritual awakening? I'm just curious, because you seem to know the Bible and have studied greatly, but just wanted to know if you yourself have experienced that sense of spiritual awakening knowing Jesus Christ like never before, even with all the knowledge that some have of the word of God, sometimes people haven't actually felt the true awakening.

I'm not talking about like I have excepted Jesus Christ into my life. I'm talking about a knowing of all knowing that he is present within you not based on what you read, but what you know and feel.

Kindly and respectfully, Healing and Peace

July 7, 2009
6:55 pm
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bereft

Thanks for your response of 7-Jul-09:

"the difference, Tez, is that the Bible interprets itself. those were not my interpretations."

I am having difficulty understanding how a book can interpret itself. My understanding is that people interpret the writings in the book that had first to be translated from the original ancient Greek into English. That act of translation is in itself problematic. Firstly the translator has to understand the usage of the words in antiquity. Secondly they have to know the context in which the word was used, thirdly, the translator has to be aware of and circumvent the biases to hhich he/she brings to this translation process. Fourthly, there are often no words in one language that exactly translate into another, leaving the translator to improvise. Now we get to the matter of who gets to interpret the translated word. If there was only one Christian sect in existence there would be a strong case to be made that only one interpretation were possible. That is evidently not the case with well over a hundred Christian sects in existence; all claiming to know exactly what Christ meant! You can't even get agreement from the Christians here regarding your stance on the bible in regard to homosexuality. And you propose that the bible interprets itself? Come on now...

"... tolle’s god is not the personal, eternal, self-sufficient, holy God of the Bible. tolle’s god is a presence, an essence, a consciousness that is in everything. it is pantheism. since you're an atheist, i know you can't believe what tolle says.... come on, Tez, explain to us what tolle meant. don't worry, according to tolle, "Nobody is wrong. It is the ego in someone, that’s all.” give it a shot. in fact, let's all say what it means to us."

You are correct. Given that atheism means not believing in the existence of a personal creator God who started the whole show going and who watches what is going on in the universe and who sits in judgment on his creation, I certainly am an atheist. Given that I believe in the existence of the quantum field, sunyata, in which all potentials exist, I certainly believe in the potential of science to one day unravel the mystery of this quantum field. I also believe in the existence of a Universal Mind that both underpins this quantum field and is inseparable from that and all that emanates from it. But I emphatically do not believe that this Universal Mind is a Divine Supreme Being of any kind. So I can hardly be called either a pantheist or a theist. If I am to be labelled as anything, an atheist is as near as I can get to agreeing with a theistically related label that fits. Since I believe in the possibility of consciousness reaching into the unfathomable depths of what is labelled as 'one's own mind', the origin of which is the "Light", the Universal Mind, I am not agnostic. Incidently I believe that it is that same "Light" that we see upon passing through death's portal and going through the 'tunnel'. Further, I believe that Tolle would agree with what I have written here. Presumptuously, I hope that this explains both my position and my understanding of Tolle's position clearly.

"tolle didn't give a deeper meaning to light by trying to attach it to sunyata."

I'm sorry to have to inform you that, in the lengthy three part video that I have on my PC, Tolle did exactly what you deny him doing in this above statement of yours. He didn't use the word Sunyata. Instead, while directly stipulating the Buddhist context, he chose to use the word 'Void'; a very ambiguous word avoided by most Buddhist texts these days. I strongly suspect that Tolle is cashing in on the Buddha's teachings by disguising all of the Buddhist terminology and substituting new age jargon as an overlay. He is not alone in this activity. Genpo Roshi, a supposed Zen Master, is doing the same thing.

Though the superheterodyne transmitter and receiver is, under certain circumstances, flawed, oftentimes the 'message' still gets through. That is why I like the Gospel of St. Thomas - unlike the fundamentalist Christian counterparts, it has much to offer in both depth and wisdom. There sure is a hell of a lot of 'static' introduced into the bible.

July 7, 2009
10:18 pm
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Bereft.

You also wrote in your last excellent post:

"however, the Bible declares that Jesus is the Son of God as the eternal Son of God who is himself deity. He pre-existed his birth, created the world, was a person prior to his birth and took a human nature upon himself at his birth. that is quite different than anything i could say about myself. Christ and i are totally separate, individual entities, yet, He lives in me."

Yes, many avatars, supposedly God, having taken on human form like you say Jesus did. Meher Baba is one such example of such an avatar who claimed to be God also. However, I doubt that Jesus or Meher Baba or any other avatar would agree with your statement: "Christ and i are totally separate, individual entities, yet, He lives in me."

I would be very interested to hear what you have to say about the boundaries between what you consider as being 'you' and that which you consider to be 'not you'. What differentiates 'you' from 'not you' - which side of your skin something is located perhaps? That which you consider is encompassed by this imaginery thing you call your soul and that which you consider to be not your soul, possibly? Where is your soul located? Where is this repository in which Jesus resides within you, located? In your blood pump, perhaps? In your brain, maybe? Or in your foot? Or all of the above? Hmmm!!

When does the food that you eat cease being not you and then become you? In your stomach perhaps? After it is absorbed into your bloodstream perhaps?

When does the contents of your bowel or bladder become not you?

I suspect that if you really meditate upon these questions at depth, you might find that 'the you' that 'you' imagine to exist separate from your bodily aggregates and who possesses same, is the mind construct that Tolle calls 'the ego'. If you look closely at this, then you might just see that we do construct our own self-image and then evaluate it, ascertaining our worth to ourselves and others. This evaluation of self-worth is often called self-esteem. When our self-image sustains damage in some way by insults, others pointing out our physical, mental and emotional deficiencies, etc, we usually become very defensive and then set about repairing that damage in some way or another. Often this involves reverting to victim mode and then attacking the so-called offender or just unconsciously choosing to 'depress' ourselves.

Back to Jesus being "the eternal Son of God who is himself deity" - as you said. So now you declare that we always have had two Gods? I thought that it was three? Did you leave out the Holy Ghost, perhaps? This is where it gets really wierd. So there are in fact three separate individual Gods, but Christianity is a monotheistic religion? Ahhhh ... the Mystery of the Blessed Trinity rears its ugly head! Three separate Gods in One God? I just love the way the early Christian fathers declared 'the culdesacs', into which they painted themselves by inventing their doctrinal beliefs, as being mysteries of religion. They claim to know what their Christian God wanted and what He is all about when it suits them but they raced for the cover of the dogmatic declarations of mysteries in order to put a full stop to any further questioning of their interpretations of the biblical writings and Christ's orally transmitted teachings. No wonder that they were at a loss to make any sense out of the Gospel of St. Thomas. Do you fall into that category of behavior too? Declaring some incomprehensible doctrine to be a mystery is nothing more than a crude way of putting a convenient full stop to a discussion when no rational answers are possible.

July 8, 2009
5:05 pm
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thank you, Healing and Peace, for your insightful question and kind words (am i on the right thread?). i find it interesting that you have framed your question on the basis of spiritual experiencing and knowing, a knowing apart from reading. Romans 1 verse 19 says, “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them.” obviously we can’t know everything about God even through Scripture, but He is "knowable" apart from Scripture. some of us accept this knowing, others reject it.

i'm reminded of a great story about Helen Keller, the deaf, mute and blind woman. absolutely no capacity to communicate, until Anne Sullivan spent hours upon hours, days upon days and months upon months to unlock communication, and when Anne attempted to tell Helen Keller about God her response was, “I already know about Him, I just didn’t know His name.”

yes, i have some absolutely exhilarating spiritual experiences, and i have some very difficult experiences, very sad and heart wrenching experiences. i'm not talking about an emotional experience or an earthly experience. a true spiritual experience will be the result of the quickening of truth in the Christian's mind. in other words, the Spirit all of a sudden gives dramatic life to a truth.

i also have peace and joy and other fruits of the Spirit that transcends human intellect, analysis, and insight. no human counselor here or anywhere can give it because it's a gift from God. when God brought new life to me with His indwelling presence, He also brought His peace to my mind.

as a believer, i want you to consider how our peace, our spiritual experience is a reasonable peace of soul. it is what has its foundation in light and knowledge, in the proper exercises of reason, and a right view of things, whereas the peace of the world is founded in blindness and delusion. the peace we have, arises from us having our eyes open, and seeing things as they are. the more we consider, and the more we know of the truth and reality of things — the more we know what is true concerning ourselves, the state and condition we're in, the more we know of God, and the more certain we are that there is a God. the more we know what manner of being He is, the more certain we are of another world and future judgment and of the truth of God’s threatenings and promises, the more our consciences are awakened and enlightened and the brighter and the more searching the light is that we see things in, — the more is our awakening and peace established.

i hope this answers your question and you have identified with what i've written.

grace and peace

July 8, 2009
9:55 pm
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bereft,

make no mistakes about it, I go wherever I "damn" well choose. : )

July 8, 2009
11:11 pm
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bereft
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glittered,

that's what Saul thought, for heaven's sake, and look where it got him?

grace and peace

July 9, 2009
1:14 am
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Grace & peace my ass. What a load of crap! Ya know, for such a supposedly spiritually enlightened person, you sure are a sarcastic & arrogantly assertive individual. It's such a turn off. Some witness for xtianity. Motivational speaking doesn't appear to be your forte.

Maybe you ought to sign off with a different line like - "Circular reasoning & overbearing pride" or something that more accurately reflects your online persona.

Good luck with your underlying issues!

July 9, 2009
11:34 am
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is that so, CraigCo? very well stated, and i sincerely mean that. i appreciate your reasonable approach and willingness to engage thoughtfully in our discourse. however, i don’t believe it is arrogant to believe something to be true when it is based on objective reality.

grace and peace

July 9, 2009
11:44 am
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CraigCo

Have to admit it. Your posting got me howling with laughter.

Thanks. I needed it.

- Ma Strong

July 9, 2009
2:59 pm
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Ma:

Psalm 100: Make a joyful noise unto the Lord; all ye lands...

Bitsy

July 9, 2009
3:26 pm
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I like all my cable channels, but this thread offers great entertainment as well.

July 9, 2009
3:30 pm
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and Jesus, in no way, meets any definition of objective reality

except perhaps a subjective interpretation of objective reality

July 9, 2009
3:39 pm
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Bereft,

You wrote:

"thank you, Healing and Peace, for your insightful question and kind words (am i on the right thread?)."

Well, if you have an issue with the "insight and kindness" found in the posts on this thread, perhaps you should look at your own posts. It has been mostly you and Tez posting for a while, and Tez' posts don't seem to lack insight or kindness.

Maybe it's not the message but the messenger, Bereft.

Mary

July 9, 2009
8:59 pm
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fantas
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I wish someone who clarify something for me. If God, Jesus,the Bible and the Holy Spirit are so easily understood and interpreted, then why so many versions of the interpretations in the forms of the Bible, denominations, and understandings of this so simply understood truth? How does one know which one is the true one? One person says the Holy Spirit spoke to them and explained such and such and yet another says the Holy Spirit told them a completely different thing while all of them claim to be born again and filled with the H.S. How is it that often one cannot tell who is the born again from the so called not born again if they are in their presence?

Reading through most of these threads here, I see many eloquent and well read people but I truly cannot say that just because they are this way, I feel they are any different from me or others that I know who would be seen as not born again. How is it that this difference isn't evident?

These things baffle me and often keep me awake.... not!!! But they do make me think that I have a lot of things to learn and grow from 🙂

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