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Jesus isn't the ONLY way
June 25, 2009
2:39 pm
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bereft
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thank you, glittered. you are kind and gentle in your response and keep me on the straight and narrow, flat-line reasoning. i am a poor persuader, it's true. the Word of God is the only legitimate means of persuasion but then folks complain when i quote Scripture.

as i said before all men reason in a circular manor. evidence for God's existence is abundant and there are many valid theological arguments for the existence of God. i have tried to spare everyone here those arguments.

the problems, as you well know, is the facts do not speak for themselves (Matthew 28:17—men who saw the resurrected Lord did not believe). the unbeliever will always employ his tools of reason to reduce the contents of Scripture to naturalism. besides, glittered, you're an agnostic. i don't have to prove God to you, you already know God. man has an inescapable sense of deity, does he not?

metaphysically or ontologically, we are in agreement because we both know God and are made in His image, yet you are always inconsistent. but that's par for the course. in contradiction to your view you continue to rely on God. what is the object of your faith? can you account for anything you believe from within your worldview? or will you continue to make absolute or super-statements without authority? remember, saying something is so, doesn't make it so. do you follow what i'm saying, my friend?

and the seasons, they go round and round and the painted ponies go up and down......

what i'm doing here, so that you know, is placing your circular reasoning, which is filled with self-contradiction, over against my circular reasoning based on the Bible, which makes total sense out of life. thus, while it is true i presents reason and evidences within a biblical framework, i don't try to prove God from the Bible. i presuppose God in my arguments. our world gives ample evidence that there must be a God who is the cause of all those qualities, which are merely reflections of His character, and the Bible substantiates every one.

don't worry about the a/c. you're cool no matter where you are.

grace and peace

June 25, 2009
2:50 pm
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marypoppins
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I'm reposting this because it's still true and still interesting.

AND, the Emperor has no clothes, and I'm not afraid to say it...

http://www.adherents.com/Relig.....rents.html
(Sizes shown are approximate estimates, and are here mainly for the purpose of ordering the groups, not providing a definitive number.

This list is sociological/statistical in perspective.)

Christianity: 2.1 billion

Islam: 1.5 billion

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

Buddhism: 376 million

primal-indigenous: 300 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 15 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha'i: 7 million

Jainism: 4.2 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 4 million

Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

Tenrikyo: 2 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

Scientology: 500 thousand

Peace and Love to ALL

Mary

June 25, 2009
4:44 pm
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bereft
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Christianity: 2.1 billion

OR

Islam: 1.5 billion

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

Buddhism: 376 million

primal-indigenous: 300 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 15 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha'i: 7 million

Jainism: 4.2 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 4 million

Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

Tenrikyo: 2 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

Scientology: 500 thousand

salvation in Jesus Christ is the only way. which way were you talking about, Mary?

grace and peace

June 25, 2009
4:55 pm
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marypoppins
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Save it for a bumper sticker or a t-shirt, Bereft.

Man, I'm really gonna have to put my foot down about your

BASHING OF non-Berefists!!

Mary

June 25, 2009
5:14 pm
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marypoppins
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BerefTists...

the Prophetess

peace and love to ALL

June 25, 2009
5:54 pm
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bereft
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touchy touchy. was i bashing? i said Jesus is about salvation. was i talking about bereft? the other religions listed are free to be about whatever it is they're about.

i asked which "way" was she referring to. isn't it her thread? isn't that a legitimate question? i thought she might know. well, perhaps 1) she knows, but she doesn't want to say; 2) she.....oh, nevermind.

grace and peace

June 25, 2009
6:22 pm
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marypoppins
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(((touchy touchy))) Welcome to the thread! You, too, grace and peace.

What is "bashing" exactly? and what IS a legitimate question?

This thread belongs to us all, Grace and Peace.

Mary

June 25, 2009
6:46 pm
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bereft
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are you suffering, Mary? is there anything i can do to help you?

bereft

June 25, 2009
6:47 pm
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Healing.. and peace
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I'll tell you sometimes I'm amazed on how some Christian's will go on and on and on, about what they feel is the right way.

I am a Christian but I see no point in pounding this thread the way I've seen.. believe what you want to believe, how are suttle or coy cuts being a Christian?

My personal belief is that you live and be an example of kindness, and understanding, there is no need to keep pounding the same thing over and over again. There are clearly times when you walk away. It's called common courtesy towards others, and about kindness and seeing that maybe someone else doesn't see things the way you see them or believe them as you do.

Respect all equally is a hard lesson to learn but it isn't that difficult.

June 25, 2009
7:29 pm
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marypoppins
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((((Healing and Peace))))

There you go again, girl, trying to bring about healing and peace. Thank you for your efforts.

I'm okay with whatever Bereft needs to do. I didn't get what he's about before, but I do now, and I understand he needs to be who he is and how he is as much as any of us do.

He doesn't put me off Christianity.

I think everyone can stand up for themselves on this thread, whether it makes sense to anyone else or not. Sometimes I don't think it's always clear to us why we're engaging with one another, in the way that we are, but if our minds and hearts are true, and focused on getting healthier, we can figure it out.

All the best to you!

Mary

June 25, 2009
8:24 pm
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Healing.. and peace
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((Mary))

Thanks I guess I just don't get it, but as long as you do then that's good. LOL

Healing and Peace

June 25, 2009
11:25 pm
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glittered when he walked
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Bereft,

In a word "huh?" I think you'd be the only person here accusing me of circular reasoning. All I have done is say that you can't point to the Bible as proof of God's existence. I'm not even gonna go down that path, because it's paved with red herrings.

This is what you said on may 13th.
"it's not a question of comparing people's beliefs. it's a question of what is the authority, and the Bible has stood the test of time and been affirmed ever since Moses as a divine word from God (before the Bhagavad Gita, by the way). "

If that's not appeal to an authority that presupposes God's existence in the first place, I don't know what is.

If you choose to believe in God..that's fine. Just don't point to the book from which you get your faith as proof that God exists. Like i said..were it that simple...it wouldn't be called faith.

June 26, 2009
12:50 am
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red blonde
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Hmmmm

You mean that there are different WAYS to be baptised? Or are you saying that there are different reasons for baptism? Or different meanings? Are there different rules and regulations in being, or having been, baptised?

I thought baptism had only one reason or meaning.

June 26, 2009
11:36 am
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_anonymous
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Healing and Peace- Great point. I think what you are trying to say is that some of these posts are and exercise in futility.

June 26, 2009
12:19 pm
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bereft
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hey red, tell you what, i'll give you the basics and you can ask questions later if need be. how's that?

baptism is a ceremony by which a person is immersed into water. the symbolism is of dying, being buried, and rising again. that is the meaning of Christian baptism. it is a physical illustration, a physical ceremony, intended to depict this reality. it symbolizes the death of the old life—they come out of the water…it symbolizes that they are now new creations.

it's also an act of obedience. when Jesus said, "Go unto all the world and make disciples, baptizing them…," He was giving a command to the apostles and to the church, saying: go out there, evangelize, make disciples, baptizing them, and teaching them to observe whatsoever things I have commanded you. the church then, is commissioned, in the great commission, to do the work of baptizing. when the Holy Spirit spoke in Acts 2:38, speaking through Peter, "Repent and be baptized," He gave a command there to the individual who repents and believes.

grace and peace

June 26, 2009
1:40 pm
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Healing.. and peace
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Destiny,

True to a certain extent but I guess what I'm saying is more that it seems redundant... not that it doesn't take rudundant explainations in some subjects. So that's why and how I can say if it works for whomever then all is good.

June 26, 2009
3:20 pm
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marypoppins
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I don't believe it's within the site guidelines to post repeatedly on a particular thread judging the value of that thread and the posts.

Personally, I don't understand how chatting about horse hay is related to recovery, but I don't post on the threads of others and tell them whether what they post is useful or not.

It's very common for codependents to try and control other people. However, since we're supposed to be here for recovery, it's probably best if we take care of our own issues and let others take care of themselves.

That being said, regardless of what anyone thinks or tries to do, this thread continues.

Mary

June 26, 2009
4:20 pm
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marypoppins
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And, no, Healing and Peace, my post is not directed at you, of course. You have made sincere contributions to the thread and shown a compassionate side of Christianity. You most definitely walk the walk of both your faith and recovery.

Mary

June 26, 2009
4:34 pm
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caraway
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Mary,

What a mean spirited and tacky attack on Destiny... why would you do that? Is that Christian? Are you living what you preach?

Come on!

Cary

June 26, 2009
4:41 pm
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caraway
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Mary,

Now I see; you didn't get enough of your negative energy in on the other post, so you added it here. However, you insulted Destiny and Healing and Peace (who do talk about horses, and other things) their business.

You are critical of them for talking about Hay when this is supposed to be a site about "recovery" and all you want to do is attack and get even? Is that "recovery"?

Why not work on you and leave others to talk about HAY or whatever helps them bond and learn to rely on and trust one another? I'm guessing you are just pretty much unhappy and feel the need to bring those around you down.

Cary

June 26, 2009
5:09 pm
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red blonde
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I believe Mary was the originator of this thread, so as to the point of whom is attacking whom...is debatable.

June 26, 2009
6:02 pm
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marypoppins
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Cary,

Excuse me, but you don't know what you're talking about. Obviously, you haven't been following this thread.

Otherwise, you would know that I began this thread to talk about other religions and beliefs after Bereft continued to hammer away that Jesus was the ONLY way and non-believers would go to hell. He outright told me I'd burn in hell for eternity for not believing as he does.

Bereft has continued to post, and has not wavered. Of course not. That's what he believes. Others have engaged in "debate" with him. And even other Christians, which I am NOT, have asked Bereft to quit "Bible thumping".

Destiny has posted on this thread several times stating that the thread is a way for me to BASH Christians and that the thread is unneccessary.

Bitsy has asked Destiny to stop trying to make trouble with me.

Cragco told Destiny that if she didn't want to read the thread, she didn't have to.

Yet, Destiny continue to take every opportunity to RUN ME DOWN for this thread.

I've asked HER to worry about her own recovery rather than focus on me. I'd like it if Destiny just left me alone and stayed away from this thread. As I told Healing and Peace, people posting on this thread seem to want to, and they can take care of themselves. This is not a Christian-bashing thread, as Destiny put it.

I don't care at all if people write about horse's hay or anything else. I've learned a lot on this thread, and I've owned up to my feelings about exchanges with people on this thread and how it relates to my recovery.

You'd have to read the entire thread, Cary, to understand.

Sincerely,

Mary

June 26, 2009
6:11 pm
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marypoppins
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And no, Cary, I'm not an unhappy person. Destiny has been coming to this thread to post her criticisms about the thread without making a genuine contribution.

She has twice called me out about this thread on other threads, stating that I'm bashing Christians due to deep hatred of them.

I hope that SHE focuses on HER recovery and stays out of my business. I suppose what I need to do is copy and paste her posts, with dates, and send them to the SC. It will be evident who has been attacking whom.

Mary

June 26, 2009
6:35 pm
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marypoppins
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Okay, Healing and Peace, I'm going to take the advice you gave me the other day and just let this go. I know what I've been doing on this thread, and I don't need to defend myself.

Trying to defend myself in the way that I have has just created more problems, and as you said, in the big scheme of things, this is very small.

You wrote, Healing and Peace, that you have learned to let things go. This is my opportunity to do so. Please forgive me for mentioning your thread. My point was that we cannot know how something helps someone or not. You questioned Bereft's "style", I told you I understood where he was coming from, maybe, and you wrote that if people were helped somehow, it was all good.

Peace and Love to All

Mary

June 26, 2009
6:52 pm
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bereft
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hey, glittered,

your "huh?" indicates some lack of understanding of my logic. i'll try this again. clarity is always better than agreement.

i do not simply infer that the Bible is God’s Word, rather i accept this presuppositionally as my ultimate starting point. an argument cannot go on forever (although some here are starting to doubt that); therefore, all chains of argumentation must end in an ultimate commitment (except for agnostics, of course) - a standard that cannot be established from something more foundational than itself (otherwise it would not be ultimate).

since an ultimate standard cannot be proved from anything beyond itself, it must be self-attesting, and the Bible is. it claims to be God’s Word. in fact, the writers claim about 4,000 times to be writing the Word of God. one either accepts that claim or does not. (however, not accepting that claim leads to irrationality)

as i said before all men reason in a circular manner. to begin with, you object to me inferring to the Bible as God’s Word. however, it probably didn’t occur to you reading this post that it was written by anyone other than me. this post claims to be written by me (although many prefer that it wasn't, or at least a different me), and most people would accept it as written by me on that very basis. you see, people often apply a double standard when reading the Bible (no, it can't be).

some degree of circular reasoning is inevitable when it comes to an ultimate standard, an absolute Truth. since an ultimate standard cannot appeal to a greater standard for its authority, it must appeal to itself. this is true of any alleged ultimate standard—not just the Bible. when people accept the Bible as God’s Word because it says it is, this is circular. but when people reject the Bible as God’s Word, they too are reasoning in a circle. that is, they start with the assumption that God has not revealed Himself in the Bible, and end with the conclusion that God has not revealed Himself in the Bible. any ultimate standard involves some degree of circularity.

than i said i was pitting your circular reasoning against mine ( a logical step). although both Christians and non-Christians must use a degree of circularity (?) when appealing to an ultimate standard, not all circles are equal.

the Christian worldview can make sense of human reasoning and experience. in other words, if (and only if) we start from the Bible as our ultimate standard, it makes sense that there would be laws of logic, uniformity in nature, senses and memory that are basically reliable, a moral code, and many other things that we take for granted. but, without the Bible as our ultimate standard, the foundation for these things is lost; and so there would be no possibility for true knowledge (Romans 1:21). apart from Scripture, why should we expect that the universe or this thread would be rationally understandable? the Christian worldview confirms itself, but non-Christian circles contradict themselves.

having said that, i have no idea what this has to do with hay. i just know it's very difficult to thump Bibles with this much hay around. God bless and have a good weekend.

grace and peace

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