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Jesus heals the blind man
November 22, 2006
9:49 am
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mamacinnamon
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Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind

1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. 4As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

John 9:1-5

November 22, 2006
11:04 am
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garfield9547
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Thanks Mamacinnamon

For me the bible has to make sense in my daily life.

This piece for me then means:

I have to ask myself, am I the blind man?

I think if you hear someone say I cannot see why I have to go to church?

I cannot see why I have to ......

This is the blind man to me. He or she cannot see they are blind spiritually.

Thats why God said it happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

Our walk of life shows if we are blind or not

Garfield

November 22, 2006
11:38 am
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garfield9547
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Just wanted to add this

2 Peter 1:8-9
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
KJV

Garfield

November 22, 2006
1:26 pm
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mamacinnamon
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Garfield:

Thanks for some insight. Even those that are not blind can become nearsighted at times. It is a challenge to stand w/ your eyes open in the midst of chaos and life in general. Nice reminders are always welcome; and sometimes heavier ones are needed.

My absolute favorite reminder is in Matthew 6:34... Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

November 22, 2006
1:34 pm
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garfield9547
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Mamacinnamon

Yes I agree. Do not worry about tomorrow as tomorrow will worry about itself.

But what do we do with today?

Today is the day of the Lord

Garfield

November 22, 2006
1:40 pm
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mamacinnamon
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Good point. well taken. 🙂

November 22, 2006
1:50 pm
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garfield9547
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Thanks for the thread you created. Its nice to talk about things that matter.

Garfield

November 22, 2006
4:09 pm
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mamacinnamon
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You are most welcome. It is actually an answer to a thread on Support, but cannot print verses there so use this side. I don't now if the person came and read or not. But if you got a blessing then I'm happy.

So talk about what matters. I'm interested.

November 22, 2006
5:18 pm
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Mamacinnamon:

A part of your quote said:

"His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?""

This would seem to indicate to me that Christ's disciples believed in reincarnation. How else could a man sin before being born, than in a previous lifetime?

There are other biblical references in the new testament that seem to indicate the disciples' belief in reincarnation.

Was it Constantine who removed scriptures containing all other references to reincarnation? Did the paltry few gospels that made it into the bible, slip through his fingers? Or did he have no other choice than to throw them all out?

And:

"While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

The implication is that since Christ is no longer "in this world", he is no longer "the light of this world".

It is interesting that you should choose this contentious quote.

November 23, 2006
1:28 am
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This is interesting.

Can reincarnation fit with Christianity?

free

November 23, 2006
9:33 am
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Free - I read, or my daddy told me that in the bible that some folks thought Jesus was the reincarnation of the prophet Isaiah. It may not have been termed as "reincarnation".

I will look for the verse if I have time.

November 23, 2006
4:24 pm
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free

You posed the question:

"Can reincarnation fit with Christianity?"

I suspect that Christ would not have had a problem with it. He certainly doesn't seem to have chided his disciples for holding with this belief.

However Christian doctrine as preached by its authoritative exponents today are not likely to think reincarnation fits into their highly modified version(Constantine) of what Jesus supposedly taught.

As far as I can see for them this life is a one shot, do or die effort with either heaven or hell as the final outcome dependent upon one's conformity to their interpretation of Constantine's narrow selection of early Christian gospels and epistles.

Of course I am no authority on the topic. This is my gleaning from the reading that I have done into the early church and my earlier years as a gung ho, not too questioning Christian.

I wonder what those far more learned in the field than I am, think about this issue.

November 23, 2006
5:56 pm
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Hi Tez

What current day Christians believe as far as the masses go is not of great interest to me at all. As far as I'm concerned they miss the point.

There's just much more to the story than they preach. Jesus was humble, non-judgemental, non-violent, highly tolerant, unconditionally forgiving. They, for the most part, from what I see, comprise the counterpart of all of Him.

It does appear as though reincarnation fits in with Christianity. this intrigues me, as spiritually I feel there is something to Jesus that is very great, but I've always felt there is something to reincarnation.

free

November 23, 2006
6:03 pm
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"Early references to reincarnation in the New Testament were deleted in the 4th century by Emperor Constantine when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. Could it be that the emperor had felt that the concept of reincarnation was threatening to the stability of the empire?"

"It was banished for no other reason than it was considered to be too much of an influence from the East. The decision was intended to enable the church to increase its power at that time, and to tighten its hold upon the human mind by telling people their salvation had to be accomplished in one incarnation and one lifetime, and if they didn't make it, they would go to Hell."

http://www.elevated.fsnet.co.u.....age14.html

Very interesting, indeed.

free

November 24, 2006
4:39 pm
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Tez

What do you believe is going to happen to you when you die?

Do you believe that you have a soul?

Do you belive in a natural life and a spiritual?

It would be interesting to know.

Thanks

Garfield

November 24, 2006
5:36 pm
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garfield9547

Thanks for your questions:

You asked:

"What do you believe is going to happen to you when you die?"

Initially, I think that I will find myself in a bodiless state somewhat similar to that depicted in the movie 'Ghost'. After an initial 'adjustment', the state of my mind at death, I believe, will determine my immediate and subsequent experiences. I only have to look at my recent dream states to get a fair idea of what life after death would be like for me, were I to die right now.

I think that the nearest we can get to foreseeing what it will be like after death, in a general sense that is, can be found in the Bardo Thodol, The Tibetan Book of the Dead. There are three major interpretations into English of this work around. This book was written for Tibetans and thus has the 'Gods' and 'Demons' associated with the old Bon religion in the descriptions as 'placeholders' as it were. My own mind's 'Gods' and 'Demons', as experienced in my dreams and waking life, can be substituted in their place for a more precise picture of what's coming to me - or so I presently believe. This belief is tenuously held and is open to change when the time comes. 🙂

You asked:

"Do you believe that you have a soul?"

No - not as I understand the current Christian doctrinal concept of a soul to be.

You asked:

"Do you belive in a natural life and a spiritual?"

No, I don't believe that this differentiation, as I understand it, exists.

I hope these answers are satisfactory.

November 24, 2006
6:38 pm
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Tez-

This might be reaching here - but I am wondering if I could- like - fuse my concept of (Christian/Western Civilization) soul, and that of external consciousness?

You may or may not remember that I have always felt that the religions were saying essentially the same thing? And that through the centuries the translations deviated? (just my gut feeling, no evidence to back me!!)

Does that make any sense to you?

November 24, 2006
6:38 pm
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free

You said:

"What current day Christians believe as far as the masses go is not of great interest to me at all. As far as I'm concerned they miss the point."

I agree. In fact, maybe with the exception of St. Thomas and perhaps Judas, I'm not sure that Christ's disciples 'got it' either. Recent findings seem to tell us that Judas was in cahoots with Jesus in bringing about his arrest and was one of his inner circle. It seems that the others through ignorance or for whatever other reason, may have unjustly ostracized Judas as being a traitor. Being so completely misjudged by his compatriots might explain why he hung himself in utter despair. But who knows for sure.

And you said:

"There's just much more to the story than they preach."

There sure is, IMHO. I think that Christ was a great mystic, one of the 'great masters' who got past the preconditioned mind that so clouds our vision of 'what really is' at any given instant.

And you said:

"I've always felt there is something to reincarnation."

Dr. Helen Wambach, now deceased, wrote a book called 'Life Before Life'. She was an eminent academic, a psychologist, who maid extensive use of hypnotherapy in her research into the effects of childhood trauma. To her surprise and completely contrary to her beliefs, some patients regressed further than recalling their birth experiences. She decided to take all her subjects back to a time prior to their birth. She soon learned that, despite their Christian beliefs about reincarnation being a lie, the vast majority recalled a previous life. Seeing that she had no religious barrow to push, Wambach documented her findings. There are many, many other sources that show 'reincarnation' to be highly likely. What reincarnates? Now that is another question altogether.

I do not believe in the doctrine of the 'atma' or soul. However I do believe in the concept of 'mind' and it being the governing 'essence' that kick starts the life process in the womb. Egg + sperm + healthy womb + 'mind' = beginning of a 'living' growing embryo. Delete any one of these and you have just another vaginal discharge. That is my belief.

What 'mind' is defies description; how preconditioned minds behave, does not. I do not believe that 'mind' is another name for a permanent enduring entity called a soul. Differentiating is a dualistic 'mind' game that ensures that things are as we 'know' them to be.

Establishing what is 'true' and not is just another 'mind' game. Perhaps it is better not to waste time playing these games. Perhaps it is better to just drink from the "bubbling spring" of the depths of 'Mind':

"Yeshúa says to his Disciples: Make a comparison to me, and tell me whom
I resemble. Shimon Kefa says to him: Thou art like a righteous angel.
Matthew says to him: Thou art like a philosopher of the heart. Thomas
says to him: Teacher, my mouth will not at all be capable of saying whom
thou art like! Yeshúa says: I'm not thy teacher, now that thou have drunk,
thou have become drunken from the bubbling spring which I have
measured out.
And he takes him, he withdraws, he speaks three words to
him. Now when Thomas comes to his comrades, they inquire of him: What
did Yeshúa say to thee? Thomas says to them: If I tell you even one of the
words which he spoke to me, you will take up stones to cast at me--and
fire will come from the stones to consume you." - from the Gospel According to St. Thomas.

What were the three words???????

November 24, 2006
7:01 pm
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bevdee

"... I am wondering if I could - like - fuse my concept of (Christian/Western Civilization) soul, and that of external consciousness?

... ...

Does that make any sense to you?"

I'm not sure what you mean. When describing the indescribable it sometimes helps to describe what it is not.

For me any separation and categorization of any kind is a 'mind game' that allows us to 'play' our bigger life games.

Words are little more than placeholders for experiences that we have of people, places, things, ideas, mental images, thoughts, feelings etc. They are not the 'things' themselves - as though 'things' exist in isolation from other 'things'.

Thus when it comes to talking about what is a 'soul' and 'what is external consciousness' and whether they are fused together, we are in deep water. We are grappling for words to describe and ideas to represent what the great masters actually 'see'.

November 25, 2006
2:00 am
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Tez

I you have no "soul" dying would be like switching of a light and there would be nothing after death.

If you believe there is something after death, that "something" christians declare as a 'soul'.

If you believe this 'soul' is in you while you live it has needs and perceptions other than your naturalls bodies needs.

This is what I call spiritual life.

If you believe in reincarnation "something" must continue to live after your fisical death in order to be reincarnated.

Christianity is one of many methods to get into touch with this inner dimention.

To try and describe how I see 'soul' to you.

Say your wife dies one night while sleeping next to you.

What do you do?

You immediately phone the ambulance to come and take her away.

Why don't you keep her if you loved her so much?

The life in her which I see as the "soul" has left the body.

Tez you said

"Initially, I think that I will find myself in a bodiless state somewhat similar to that depicted in the movie 'Ghost'. "

If I read what you say here it seems to me that you do believe you will live after death. You call it a 'Ghost" I call it a "soul"

Garfield

November 25, 2006
3:53 am
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Tez

You said

"I do not believe in the doctrine of the 'atma' or soul. However I do believe in the concept of 'mind' and it being the governing 'essence' that kick starts the life process in the womb. Egg + sperm + healthy womb + 'mind' = beginning of a 'living' growing embryo. Delete any one of these and you have just another vaginal discharge. That is my belief"

This is sooooo funny. The way you put it. LOL

I get what you say.

So to you 'mind' is the govering 'essence' that kick starts life process.

Then you said
"I do not believe that 'mind' is another name for a permanent enduring entity called a soul. "

"Initially, I think that I will find myself in a bodiless state somewhat similar to that depicted in the movie 'Ghost'"

Tez the "I" will find "myself" in a bldiless state - What does that I mean, the form that you will be in.

How would you describe that.?

Garfield

November 25, 2006
8:07 am
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mama, I stopped by. 1L1

November 25, 2006
4:58 pm
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garfield9547.

Thanks for your comprehensive and thoughtful response.

You said and asked:

"Tez the "I" will find "myself" in a bldiless state - What does that I mean, the form that you will be in.

How would you describe that.?"

With great difficulty.

I'll answer your question with a question:

What "form" does your "I" take in your dreams?

You see, I can glean from your response that you are coming from the unconscious perspective of dualism.

What do I mean by that? As I see it, your world view is fundamentally categorized into two major divisions; namely 'I' and 'other than I'.

However, when it comes to defining the borders of and the independence of this imaginary 'I' there are unsurmountable difficulties.

Thus since time immemorial, long before the Christian epoch, humanity invented the idea of the existence of a 'soul'.

Thus, if we identify the 'soul' with the 'I' then everything that is not 'I' lies outside the soul and everything that is lies inside the soul. This is what I call a 'thought stopper'. There appears to be no grounds for thinking any further.

However inventing this concept of a soul does nothing. It just arbitrarily changes the label name from 'I' to 'soul'. Unless of course the words 'soul' and 'I' are not synonymous. The problem then becomes this: If one said "I have a soul" then the implication is that there is at least a part of 'I' that exists outside the 'soul' and possesses it. Or alternatively, if you consider that the 'I' is encompassed by the soul then there are 'soul parts' that are other than 'I'. Can you see that such thinking is conditioned by our three dimensions of space and time through our sense organs?

The huge difference that this "I" can see between 'mind' and 'soul' is that mind is not a person, not a three dimensional limits defined object nor a 'thing' of any kind. It is devoid of all 'form'. Getting one's mind around that is very difficult. It cannot be easily grasped by the intellect, nor analyzed, nor described using words.

As I said earlier, some relative truths can only be described effectively in terms of what they are not.

Great mystics often spend long periods of time in meditation states 'seeing what is'. The only way I know to describe this 'seeing' using words is to say that they 'see the mind' using their 'third eye of wisdom'. I read that four word phrase, 'third eye of wisdom', many years ago and had not the slightest idea what it meant. Now, through meditation experiences since, I have just an inkling.

I would like to add that I am not in the market of 'converting' anyone to my perspectives. I doubt that I could even if I wanted to do so. My intent is to try to satisfy your mind as to how I see things to the best of my severely limited ability. I see no necessity for you to agree with me nor even see my point of view.

November 26, 2006
5:27 am
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Tez

Thanks for your reply. I am also not here to convince anyone of what I believe in. Its just nice to share and learn from others.

This thread has made me think. I looked up a couple of things that I learned from.

Tez you asked

"What "form" does your "I" take in your dreams? "

I believe I am a living soul, so the form would be for me a living soul.

There are souls and living souls, it depends what your soul is clothed with.

Sorry, I should of clearly stated that I do not have a soul, but am a soul. Hope this clears things up for you as to how I see things.

Tez you said

" 'seeing what is'. The only way I know to describe this 'seeing' using words is to say that they 'see the mind' using their 'third eye of wisdom'. I read that four word phrase, 'third eye of wisdom',"

I understand what you mean. I always talk about my third eye as my spiritual eye.

If you close you eyes and I ask you to imagine seeing a burger with cheese on top etc. You will be able to see that with what I call your spiritual eye.

Thats why I do not believe in a natural creation. I see the bible as a spiritual book that has meaning in my life today.

Garfield

November 26, 2006
3:41 pm
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Garfield.

"I see the bible as a spiritual book that has meaning in my life today."

That's good for you. Man's search for meaning seems to be a necessary part of sane living.

I'm sorry to say that my years of trying to find meaning in the Bible and Christianity were to no avail.

But that's OK because I've found what I was looking for elsewhere, mostly inside of my own mind.

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