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Is the Bible a collection of superstitious beliefs?
June 21, 2007
9:50 pm
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USA Today's Mike Walter was driving near the Pentagon when he saw an American Airlines jet fly directly into the country's military nerve center. ..
http://www.geocities.com/someg.....nesses.htm

I saw a large frame commercial airliner crossing Washington Blvd., heading towards the Pentagon! The plane had two big engines,

http://gvfd29.org/modules/news.....toryid=438

http://eric.bart.free.fr/iwpb/.....tness.html

there are pages, and pages of sites linking to pages and pages of eyewitness accounts of the airplane hitting the pentagon. At the time of the impact, people were everywhere- The Capitol isn't a place out in the middle of nowehere that's infrequently visited, ya know?

How could ALL these people be NOT telling the truth?

If CAPS bother you- sorry- I use caps not to shout, but to accentuate certain words kuz I don't know how to italicize them on my keyboard.

Not shouting- accentuating.

free

June 21, 2007
11:00 pm
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You said:

"If you can just take a deep breath, maybe meditate over this a bit, I think you'll see, if only for a moment, that's it not religions. It's not atheism. those are just weapons, AK-47's if you will."

You are sooo right. The real cause lies in the very depths of the superstitious and ignorant mind. But who perpetuates such ignorance and superstition - certainly not science?

Christianity is just one of the main perpetuators of such ignorance and superstition.

But the one thing held in common by all religions, barring just a handful, is the belief in the existence of some god and that they possess the truth about that god and what he or she or it wants. Hmmmm!!

Does yopur god have genitals that define his/her/its gender?

The Lord's Prayer analysed:

"Our father who (or which) art in heaven,"

Your God's a male, a patriachal god? Where is this place called heaven? Up in the sky where the Blessed Virgin Mary was doctrinally declared to have been assumed into heaven body and all rising up off the ground for all to see in her departure? (Note the Feast of the Assumption is a holy day of obligation to celebrate this 'miracle' of Mary escaping the grave like her son supposedly did also.)

"hallowed be thy name."

So your god has a name? Is it Jehoveh, Yehweh or Allah? Or are all three the one god whose ownership is argued over by Christians and Islamists? But then there are really three distinct Christian gods all rolled into one aren't there - they are called the Mystery of the Blessed Trinity!

"Thy kingdom come."

Ahhh... at the second coming of Christ into the New Jerusalem when all the faithful will arise out of their graves with perfect youthful bodies, I gather. Bit of bad luck if you are cremated. It is a shame about all the atoms and molecules that have leached away from the rotting Christian bodies and been absorbed by other creatures, plants etc over the centuries.

What a strange primitive belief. No wonder Bush wants to preserve Jerusalem for the Christians. The heretical Jewish sect is reuniting with its mother - Judaism - in this 'heroic' gesture to save Israel from the pagans. All has been temporarily forgiven of the Jews for killing Christ? Hmmm!

"Thy will be done on earth"

But the will of an all powerful, all knowing god is always done on earth, on the moon, and any other place in the universe. Such a god would either cause or permit all things without exception - including the bombing of Hiroshima by a self declared Christian nation.

"as it is in heaven."

If your unconditionally loving, all powerful, all knowing god exists, then why aren't we all in "heaven" right now? Why beg such a god to exert his will to have his will done on earth when it already is? Were such a god to really exist of course!

"Give us this day our daily bread"

Whaaaa!!! We have to beg your god for food? Does a child have to beg its all knowing all powerful unconditioningly loving 'Divine Mother/Creator' for food???

"and forgive us our trespasses"

Begging forgiveness from a god who deliberately created us with the propensity to 'trespass' and then supposedly gave us the 'free choice' to do so or not? Wouldn't such a god already know about all the underpinning neuroses that causes such transgeressions? Didn't your god either cause or permit such neuroses and anti-social pathological psychologies to develop?

"as we forgive those who trespass against us"

Does this mean like Bush, the self proclaimed Christian did his Islamic Jihadic brothers after 9/11?

"Lead us not into temptation"

Wow! This is a doozy! You don't trust your god not to lead you into temptation? You have to ask him not to do so? Not to test you even though he knows you will fail again and again and knowing he designed your nature to do so?? Hmmm!

" and deliver us from evil"

Oh yeah! Like the evil your mysogynistic, sadistic male god either caused or permitted in propagating your Satan, another male, and allowing him to maraud unchecked on throughout this earth? Some god!

Then there's the Protestant concatenation denied any validity by Roman Catholics:

"for thine is the kingdom the power and the glory for ever and ever."

And what a mess that kingdom's in. Where's this power to change it? What glory? Christian groveling and suck-holing you mean? Or is it the flawed creation that you think glorifies your god?

"Amen"

Ahhhh ... The Judaism is still very evident even in this central Christian prayer.

If the blind faith based superstition is not self evident to all and sundry in this Christian prayer alone then science please help the human race out of its superstitious ignorance.

June 21, 2007
11:16 pm
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"The real cause lies in the very depths of the superstitious and ignorant mind. But who perpetuates such ignorance and superstition - certainly not science?" and blah-blah

I disagree.

The real cause lies in minds of bad people. people who use religions to promote self-centered goals.

the dictator of North Korea does this today. This is but one example. And he's athiest.

Athiest Tez. Not Christian. He slaughters Christians.

Athiest. He shares the same non-belief that you do. You and Kim-dung-ho-Jong-dong whatever the psycho's name is. Both of you. Athiest.

free

June 21, 2007
11:21 pm
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SO- is the bible a collection of superstitious beliefs?

June 21, 2007
11:31 pm
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Y'all aren't athiests bevdee. You're anti-theists hiding under that umbrella. Athiests are harmless as are most Christians, Muslims, etc. But the fanatics- those who constantly and consciously attack other belief systems, they are.

those people, they are.

As to your question- oh, please. It's not question coming from you. Your belief has been made quite clear, for years now.

free

June 21, 2007
11:41 pm
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free

I've been posting on this site for about 12 months. I entered half-tentatively in Science Without Bounds.

Now you tell me what I am. New labels. Hmm.

If reading of atheism is so perturbing to you, and is getting so old to you, why come to a site that allows viewpoints different than christianity?

June 22, 2007
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Atheism, as I understand it, is not the deliberate and conscious attack on modern world religions.

Anti-theism is. Anti-theism has been expressed here, not atheism.

I could ask the same question of you bevdee- if reading about Christianity is so PERTURBING to you (not shouting here, just don't know how to do italics or bold) why come to a site that allows it's viewpoints to be expressed?

All I've done here, finally, is attack your supposed belief system back. Back at ya, so to speak. Turnabout's fair play, no? Well I say it's about time.

Kuz nobody's better than anybody else, and fanaticism is dangerous. Not religion or atheism.

free

June 22, 2007
12:15 am
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You're weird free

June 22, 2007
12:19 am
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OMW-

1st story- animals created first, then the first man and woman created simultaneously,

2nd story - human man, man was lonely so then animals, not enough companionship so woman from a rib.

In the NT- the genealogy of Jesus differs in three different inspired by god writings. I found them listed in Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.....y_of_Jesus

Talk to you later. 🙂

June 22, 2007
12:26 am
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you're weirder bevdee.

June 22, 2007
3:48 am
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free ~ I don't think you understood one word from my last post, but never mind. No, actually you understood words but apparently were unable to understand the message they contained together.

I don't appreciate your condescending and, as usually, disrespectful attitude. Perhaps participation in these threads is an ego buster for you; I, for one, am exchanging ideas and opinions to learn, not to make myself feel better, as you implied. I don't want to be as you put it "pathetically ignorant and one-sided." Good thing you are here to enlighten me and everyone else.

However, I would like to remind you that Libs are still a part of AAC and the same rules of conduct apply here, such as respect for other posters, no abusive language and no personal attacks.

June 22, 2007
6:23 am
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Matteo

I read some of Durkheim. Thanks for mentioning this.

And you say - "So whenever there is an ideology believed by a group of people, there is a religion. Communism or rather socialism which committed those crimes free quoted is then a form of religion; it has everything which organized religion has: dogma, sacred, profane, symbols and rituals. Therefore communists, as an example are not atheist. Their religion doesn't involve god but nevertheless fulfills the same role as one which does. They simply traded a religion which involves god to the one which doesn't. Certainly their fanaticism is matching the fanaticism of those who commit atrocities in the name of god. "

After I read this, I started thinking about patriotic symbols and that which is "sacred" in this country. The flag! "Don't let that flag touch the ground" That's a superstition, one I've heard all my life. The symbols- the liberty bell and the icon of Uncle Sam. (It just had to be a man, didn't it?) Red White and Blue. Those poor boys and girls in the military receive the most intense patriotic indoctrination, so they are convinced that when they are sent to other countries to bomb women and children, it is the "right" thing to do, because America is "right" and that they are "serving their country". That it is an honor to serve and possibly die for their country.

I can only draw from my own experiences and how those experiences have affected me, but being a "good christian" and a "good american" is very important in the area where I live. Those statements are usually made simultaneously- like "I'm a good christian and a good American. And that apparently, is the gold standard.

And I have observed that "acceptable" patriotic fervor is often like religious (god-worshipping) fervor. Remember, I live only 70 miles from Dallas where it was demonstrated to the Dixie Chicks, then broadcast to the entire world what free speech in America, when it is against the norm, will actually cost you.

On the news, in my town, and at my job,when the subject was brought up, I saw hatred for the Chicks on people's faces that was usually reserved for gays and Arabic people.

Down South patriotism is more complex, because many are patriotic to the old COnfederate government. Being descended from the Confederacy (Rebel soldiers) seems to mean alot to these folks. Those Rebel flags are still big down here, and alot of times I will see big ole trucks with a Rebel flag somewhere on the truck, an American flag on the truck, and a yellow ribbon. Pride in the Union. Pride in the Confederacy that seceded from it and lost the war - it seems dichotomous to me. I have tried to talk about this, but it really doesn't do any good, I just get stunned looks, because they don't think they lost that war! Blind, unquestioning loyalty to the government, and anger when another viewpoint is expressed. Sorry for the southern ramble. 🙂

From the pairing of those statements ( Christian and American), and the similar fervors I have witnessed in the two, I believe that government and patriotism and god-worship could all be a religion, and the way of thinking about them often overlaps and one bleeds into the other, and causes the confusion. Maybe it's just the rapturous feeling that can come from either. I believe that is what this country's leaders rely on when they call to arms. I believe they are calling on the fervor.

Matteo, thanks for Durkheim.

June 22, 2007
1:02 pm
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bevdee, will get back to you with your questions about Genesis.

TEZ,
Do you think the Bible could be about superstitious beliefs since the Kings really lived that are written about in the OT, such as King Nebuchadnezzar, King Solomon, and King David? How do you explain their reigns and their existence?

June 22, 2007
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bevdee, this is long, but is summarized in the last paragraph.

The geneaology question you have:
Luke shows Mary's geneaology:
In the Bible itself, Luke has:

23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath,
the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,
the son of Josech, the son of Joda,
27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,
the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,
the son of Neri, 28the son of Melki,
the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,
the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,
the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon,
the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,
the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
31the son of Melea, the son of Menna,
the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,
the son of David, 32the son of Jesse,
the son of Obed, the son of Boaz,
the son of Salmon,[d] the son of Nahshon,
33the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,[e]
the son of Hezron, the son of Perez,
the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob,
the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,
the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
35the son of Serug, the son of Reu,
the son of Peleg, the son of Eber,
the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan,
the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem,
the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, 38the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.

Matthew shows Joseph's geneaology and goes all the way back to Abraham and shows that Jesus was related to all Jews:

record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
7Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[a] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
Abiud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Eliud,
15Eliud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

I Chronicles 3 in the OT looks to be David's genealogy for Jesus, but also shows the sons of Bathsheba and those of his concubines.,..David was a pretty wild guy for awhile!:

These six were born to David in Hebron, where he reigned seven years and six months.
David reigned in Jerusalem thirty-three years, 5 and these were the children born to him there:
Shammua, [a] Shobab, Nathan and Solomon. These four were by Bathsheba [b] daughter of Ammiel. 6 There were also Ibhar, Elishua, [c] Eliphelet, 7 Nogah, Nepheg, Japhia, 8 Elishama, Eliada and Eliphelet—nine in all. 9 All these were the sons of David, besides his sons by his concubines. And Tamar was their sister. The Kings of Judah

10 Solomon's son was Rehoboam,
Abijah his son,
Asa his son,
Jehoshaphat his son,

11 Jehoram [d] his son,
Ahaziah his son,
Joash his son,

12 Amaziah his son,
Azariah his son,
Jotham his son,

13 Ahaz his son,
Hezekiah his son,
Manasseh his son,

14 Amon his son,
Josiah his son.

15 The sons of Josiah:
Johanan the firstborn,
Jehoiakim the second son,
Zedekiah the third,
Shallum the fourth.

16 The successors of Jehoiakim:
Jehoiachin [e] his son,
and Zedekiah. The Royal Line After the Exile

17 The descendants of Jehoiachin the captive:
Shealtiel his son, 18 Malkiram, Pedaiah, Shenazzar, Jekamiah, Hoshama and Nedabiah.

19 The sons of Pedaiah:
Zerubbabel and Shimei.
The sons of Zerubbabel:
Meshullam and Hananiah.
Shelomith was their sister.

20 There were also five others:
Hashubah, Ohel, Berekiah, Hasadiah and Jushab-Hesed.

21 The descendants of Hananiah:
Pelatiah and Jeshaiah, and the sons of Rephaiah, of Arnan, of Obadiah and of Shecaniah.

22 The descendants of Shecaniah:
Shemaiah and his sons:
Hattush, Igal, Bariah, Neariah and Shaphat—six in all.

23 The sons of Neariah:
Elioenai, Hizkiah and Azrikam—three in all.

24 The sons of Elioenai:
Hodaviah, Eliashib, Pelaiah, Akkub, Johanan, Delaiah and Anani—seven in all.

So these hardly match the website in wikipedia. They refer to 3 different genealogies for Mary, Joseph and David, which is why there really aren't any discrepancies.

June 22, 2007
4:01 pm
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Regarding Genesis 1 and 2, I need to look at it more closely. I see what you are saying. Genesis 1 is said to be an overview, Genesis 2 is said to be more detailed. Kind of like, bevdee went for a walk and saw the sun, but before she knew it the sun had set, and out came her good friend Tez, and they had great conversations, and took in all the beauty around them, and blah, blah, blah....as opposed too:

bevdee went for a walk on Monday and the sun had just risen for the day, she walked, went to work, helped some people, and had dinner, and before she knew it the sun had set that day. The next day while walking, she saw her good friend Tez, and they walked and talked, and had great conversation. Bevdee went to work and she noticed on her way home that the trees in the park were beautiful, and the birds were singing. She was so hungry, and went home and fixed steak for dinner.....blah, blah, blah.

See more detail in the second one, but the facts are the same with the same people.

The second chapter is more about man, and created in God's image, formed him from the dust of the ground, speaks of the tree of life...is more detailed.

The order is different in both, I agree. Is this really so important to you? It isn't to me...but if this answer does not suffice I can look further, so far this is all that I know.

June 22, 2007
4:42 pm
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matteo ~ I don't think you understood one word from my last post, but never mind. No, actually you understood words but apparently were unable to understand the message they contained together.

I don't appreciate your condescending and, as usually, disrespectful attitude. Perhaps participation in these threads is an ego buster for you; I, for one, am exchanging ideas and opinions to learn, not to make myself feel better, as you implied. I don't want to be as you put it "pathetically ignorant and one-sided." Good thing you are here to enlighten me and everyone else.

However, I would like to remind you that Libs are still a part of AAC and the same rules of conduct apply here, such as respect for other posters, no abusive language and no personal attacks.

free

June 22, 2007
7:25 pm
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OMW

Honey! It's not that important to me. I saw the differences when I was 16. I appreciate the offer though. There are other contradictions, but if a person wants to take it literally I suppose there is a way to reconcile the differences.

Thanks for your posts. You made me hungry for steak!

June 22, 2007
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on my way

On the 22-Jun-07 you asked:

"TEZ, Do you think the Bible could be about superstitious beliefs since the Kings really lived that are written about in the OT, such as King Nebuchadnezzar, King Solomon, and King David? How do you explain their reigns and their existence?"

Yes.

Whether King Nebuchadnezzar, King Solomon, and King David ever really existed or not is IMHO totally irrelevant to the argument about whether the Bible is a collection of superstitious beliefs or not.

Let me give you just one example that might clarify my point.

That JC may well have existed as an historic character is a totally credible belief. However believing all the rest of the superstitious party line written about JC is quite another story.

Believing that JC rose from the dead, walked on water, multiplied the loaves and fishes to feed 5000 people, changed water into wine, made the blind man see, calmed a storm on the lake of Galilee at his will, healed the woman of haemorragic fever, raised Lazarus from the dead after he was putrifying, was tempted by Satan in the desert and pissed him off, cured lepers, glued Peter's severed ear back on like new, etc, etc is another thing altogether.

The former may be able to be historically verified and half credible. The latter beliefs are pure superstitious in nature.

Not to mention the creationists superstition in Genesis e.g, Eve coming from Adam's rib; Eve tempting Adam and causing the downfall of mankind; Satan in the form of a snake being behind Eve's stupity;the tree growing fruit of the knowledge of good and evil; Adam and Eve producing Cain and Abel etc and then the obvious incest that must have followed; the parting of the Red Sea; the tower of Babel to explain the diversity of languages; the flooding of the whole earth and all animals - barring those saved on Noah's Ark - being killed; the Jewish trumpets causing the collapse of the walls of Jericho; Jonah being swallowed by a whale, being regurgitated and surviving: Daniel in a hungry lion's den surviving; Samson and Delilah; David killing Goliath with a sling shot and the Philistines just rolling over and capitulating as a result: the superstitious and arrant crap in the book of Job; the superstitious nonsense in Revelations; the list is only as long as the bible contents permit. The superstitious fairy stories abound within the bible - suitable only for primitave tribal Jews and children. Hansel and Gretel, red Riding Hood, and the Three little pigs and the Big Bad Wolf are just as credible as the bible stories to the childlike mind.

"We find collected in this book [The Bible] the superstitious beliefs of the ancient inhabitants of Palestine, with indistinct echoes of Indian and Persian fables, mistaken imitation of Egyptian theories and customs, historical chronicles as dry as they are unreliable and miscellaneous poems, amatory, human and Jewish-national, which is rarely distinguished by beauties of the highest order but frequently by superfluity of expression, coarseness, bad taste, and genuine Oriental sensuality." Max Nordau (1849-1923)

That Galilee and Jerusalem or any other place mentioned in the bible exists is irrelevant. That historical figures are mentioned in the bible is also irrelevant to this present claim that the bible is a collection of superstitious beliefs.

June 22, 2007
10:48 pm
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BevDee.

The Christians are reeling and spluttering upon being presented with their own biblical superstition. It's sad that they haven't a leg to stand on.

QED

June 22, 2007
10:50 pm
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Matteo

Your posts are a breath of fresh air in their logical consistency and clarity of meaning.

June 23, 2007
12:13 am
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"The Christians are reeling and spluttering upon being presented with their own biblical superstition. It's sad that they haven't a leg to stand on."

Well yay for you Tez! Sounds like your side is winning! Damn Christians anyways. If they would just all commit that one mortal sin, we'd all be free of their illogical and supertitous beliefs and wouldn't have to listen to that crap anymore.

So tell me, who exactly is on the Christians side and who is on YOUR side?

I'd like to know where I stand, and who I'm fighting against so I can get 'em real good.

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June 23, 2007
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bevdee earlier you wrote:

"This cult of Osiris was considered a mystery religion, one in which religious functions were closed- for which the inner-working of the religion were kept secret from the general public. From what little I know about these "esoteric" religions - this sounds alot like the Egyptian Rosicruceans and the Freemasons."

Regarding the Freemasons- meetings are closed and the inner workings kept from the general public for a very important reason, though possibly outdated. The founding Freemason was a Knights Templar who carried the holy grail to France. The Holy grail is not the cup used at the last supper as in the Indiana Jones movie, nor is it a chest of important historical documents. It's the family tree of Jesus and Mary Magdalene, who were married and had kids. It includes Jesus and Mary's siblings, Joseph, etc. The Knights Templars were persecuted by the Roman Catholic Church, and this is why Freemasons are sworn to secrecy, why one must be related to a mason to join (to avoid infiltration by the Roman Catholic Church),and why the "religion" of the freemasons must be made a mystery to the general public (it's difficult to attack a "religion" or persecute its members if you don't know what they're about). This is also why America's founding fathers that were freemasons tended to be mysterious about their religion as well. Freemasonry doesn't "fit" any of the world's religious molds and it doesn't have its own mold.

Masons aren't cultish in a bad sense. I assure you, bevdee, the masons are very, very good. After becoming a 32nd degree mason, one enters the Shriners, and look what they do. Shriner hospitals are non-profit, supported by masonic lodges and orders of Eastern Star- the woman counterpart of freemasonry.

Just wanted to point out that freemasonry- while intimidatingly mysterious to most, is very, very, good, and holds nothing to fear.

free

June 23, 2007
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"Just wanted to point out that freemasonry- while intimidatingly mysterious to most, is very, very, good, and holds nothing to fear."

I don't fear it. Thanks for defending it though. You gave a good explanation of your denomination.

June 23, 2007
4:12 pm
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jv63
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This is a pretty Cool thread. The one thing I don't get is the fact that if you don't believe in the bible Or Diety in Carnate Jesus Crist. Then why bother even talking about the bible. This document is nat a historical doc it's not a fact book it's not poetry (though song of songs is very poetic indeed) it's not litrature. It is a spiritual design for living that is timeless and flawless to those who have the gift of understanding it. The words contained there are spirit and life. This Gift is available to all who earnestly seek it. All are loved by the hebrew God Abba the Father of Jesus. All are welcome. Unfortunatly like the jelous brother in the prodical son parable, The Barny and Birtha better than u croud like to run around putting conditions and laws and made up restrictions on the ever flowing un conditional Grace of God. these conditions don't exist except in the mind of the hypocrites. The bible is spiritual truth and cannot be read or picked apart in human fasion with our intellect or emotion. To those who understand this the beauty and pour forth from its every verse. To those who do not understand this the bible is little more than a waist of space.

June 23, 2007
6:22 pm
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jv63

"To those who do not understand this the bible is little more than a waist of space."

Oh no! I wouldn't agree. The bible makes a very good door stop.

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