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Is the Bible a collection of superstitious beliefs?
June 20, 2007
8:31 pm
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bevdee
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OMW

Don't worry about it- no offense taken, no harm done. Everything here at AAC causes me to look deeper.

As for your statement - "'Recovering from Religion', etc., what I have a hard time with, is how as children, some are damaged with 'religion'. Parents who made their children read their bibles, or made them pray...I question this because my kids don't feel that way."
I thought you told me not long ago that your son, (the one with the drinking problem) was not receptive to your bible and Jesus teachings?

Are you saying you don't believe anyone when they say "blah blah blah, religion was hurtful to me because...." because that was not the case for you?

I"m not the only one that feels this way. I know of other people on this site and elsewhere that have expressed similar feelings that did not have - a mother with untreated mental illnesses - were not abused as children or adults, or have other forms of mental illness running in their family to influence their childhood- like I did. But manipulation, condemnation, and negative judgement are always detrimental, no matter what you call it. In whatever era in time, or what language - it scars. I've always had fair to middlin clarity - before, during, and after the abuse. Sometimes there was a little confusion because of all the conflicting messages sent out by my family, church leaders, and all that was transpiring in the Christianity denominations in my lifetime. And there was and still is bafflement on my part when someone claiming to be knowledgeable about their god and his writings is unable to answer a direct question about either. I will say this for my daddy- when he didn't know, he would tell me he would have to get back to me after he had studied it. Then he would sigh!

It's ok to question that, "Parents who made their children read their bibles, or made them pray...I question this" - but to me that reinforces that there is more than one truth, and some people are less willing to accept that, and fight harder to defend that which they have based their truth on. It's good that you continue to ask the question and you continue to get different perceptions.

So from your heart you feel compelled to explain your beliefs? But sometimes it seems to me you retreat from direct questions.

I was wondering which scripture(s) this statement of yours is based on? "Regarding my statement about Iran invading Israel, yes it is in the OT and the NT. Russia will most likely do the same." Do you believe literally in the bible?

June 20, 2007
8:55 pm
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Tez you wrote "That's not a bad question. It would be true if an atheists' scripture existed that atheists promulgated as absolute truth. I've never seen an atheist's church, synagogue or meeting place." and:

"
This would seem to me to indicate that generally speaking atheists are not sheep like in either leader following or bleeting."

Really? Surely you jest. Ever heard of communist nations? Ever heard of Stalin? china? Mongolia?

Maybe you just don't think of them often?

I do. My baby niece is from China. Her parents were Buddhist. Now they're dead.

free

June 20, 2007
9:22 pm
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Loralei
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"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so [Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]"

So if a country has a nice Catholic dictator like Hitler, then all is well and good??

June 20, 2007
9:34 pm
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Oh, I dunno.

Maybe an athiest one like Stalin would be better.

free

June 20, 2007
9:45 pm
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Face it.

Stalemate.

It's not the religions or the lack of them.

It's not the spirituality of people or the lack of it.

The problem is the people who use religion as a weapon: the religious people do it, and the atheist people do it. Religion is an effective weapon when used to control/dominate/oppress people. Christians do it. Muslims do it. Catholics do it. And YES- ATHEISTS do it.

free

June 20, 2007
10:17 pm
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Loralei
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And if you believe the bible, then the god of the bible is the one who is the most guilty of control/domination/oppression of people. Afterall, he wiped out the entire human race save for Noah's family, according to the scriptures. He has all the monsterous dictators beat at their own game. He even wiped out all the animals except for the ones on the ark. Guess they were "sinful" and deserved it, just like all the children that were drown? Such a nice children's story...

June 20, 2007
10:29 pm
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bevdee
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I never could figure out why that Noah was picked. He was the one that was worthy to live, and he was like some drunken nudist? Gen 9: 20 - 23. Maybe he had PTSD from the flood.

June 21, 2007
12:09 am
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And if you don't believe Loralei?

Who, then, is most guilty of control/domination/oppression of people?

Who?

free

June 21, 2007
1:17 am
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Tez you wrote:

"Mindless beliefs were not always an option!!!! For many centuries they were compulsory under the pain of torture and a cruel death. That's the fruits of christianity!"

Seems many things bear fruit. Here's one of the fruits of atheism:

In Vietnam, the terrifying abuses against the Montagnard people of the Central Highlands has been the subject of numerous human rights reports and recent articles. They chronicle how Vietnamese authorities have destroyed their church buildings, have burned their house/churches and have forced them to drink a mixture of liquor, goat's blood, raw chicken liver and raw pig intestine all in an attempt to force them to renounce God and to promise not to tell others about Christianity.

Maybe this doesn't bother you, Tez, kuz this involves Christians. what about this one:

Members of the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam and the Hoa Hao Buddhists—have disappeared threatened. They have been persecuted, and they have been targeted for arrest. The Unified Buddhist Church's top patriarch remains under house arrest. Another spiritual leader of the Unified Buddhist Church died while under house arrest just in January of this year. He had spent 9 years in one of Vietnam's squalid jail cells under trumped up charges of trying to overthrow the Communist regime in Hanoi.

for the Muslims on this site:

This Subcommittee and the U.S. Congress cannot be idle as Uighur Muslims are killed by members of China's military police. We must give a voice to the increasing numbers of Falun Gong practitioners who are arrested, sent to labor camps, beatened, and tortured because they refuse to renounce their beliefs.

Read it for yourself, kuz ya know what? If you can just take a deep breath, maybe meditate over this a bit, I think you'll see, if only for a moment, that's it not religions. It's not atheism. those are just weapons, AK-47's if you will.

it's us Tez.

people. mankind.

us.

And we can change things if we'll just stop blaming each other's belief systems, each other's God's, each others Bibles, each other's lack of spiritual faith, etc.

Kuz it's not these things.

It's us.

free

http://commdocs.house.gov/comm.....7695_0.HTM

June 21, 2007
7:27 am
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Robert123
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OMW...do you seriously believe that 9/11 was planned by Bush? What are your thoughts supporting this?...other than U-tube videos.

June 21, 2007
7:37 am
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bevdee
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"people. mankind.

us."

Man-made religions?

June 21, 2007
9:51 am
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Matteo
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"Christians do it. Muslims do it. Catholics do it. And YES- ATHEISTS do it."

Actually, according to Durkheim, every society defines what is sacred and profane, and sacred doesn't have to be associated with God. Religion has a function: its rituals and symbols are a source and reinforcement of social solidarity. Religion explains the world around and answers questions which are impossible to answer, like for example, what happens to us after we die. Religious dogma ties up nicely the questions about our existence here and afterlife, what is important, and how people should lead their lives.

So whenever there is an ideology believed by a group of people, there is a religion. Communism or rather socialism which committed those crimes free quoted is then a form of religion; it has everything which organized religion has: dogma, sacred, profane, symbols and rituals. Therefore communists, as an example are not atheist. Their religion doesn't involve god but nevertheless fulfills the same role as one which does. They simply traded a religion which involves god to the one which doesn't. Certainly their fanaticism is matching the fanaticism of those who commit atrocities in the name of god.

June 21, 2007
10:51 am
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Loralei
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Matteo,

That was an excellent explanation. I was thinking the exact same thing but couldn't put it into words. Thank you.

June 21, 2007
3:08 pm
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bevdee,
I am going to try to answer your questions one at a time. 🙂

You ask : 'I thought you told me not long ago that your son, (the one with the drinking problem) was not receptive to your bible and Jesus teachings?'

This is difficult to explain, so bare with me. My oldest son, the alcoholic, was taken to church by his dad and I when he was 6 years old. Before that time he had never entered a church, but from the time he was little we taught him about God. He would see me reading my Bible and ask what it was. He would walk in on me and I may be praying, and he would ask what I was doing and I would tell him I was talking to God...well who is God? he would say. It's hard to describe God to a child, so I would tell him that God made him and loved him very much, and asked him if he wanted to talk to God, that he could. My son developed a love on his own, and by the time we took him to church, he couldn't learn enough about who God is. My husband took him on walks whehn he was very little and talk to him about the flowers and the trees, nad tell him that God made them. The children's director at church when Chris was only 8 years old, said, I have never seen a child before who just 'gets it', who seems to have an innate ability to understand who God is, and she also said that she had never seen a child who had such a loving heart. He loved out church, a very small church, and loved going there and has many good memories of being there. When he was 9 years old, he decided that he wanted to give his heart to Jesus Christ and that he wanted to be baptized, after talking to me and asking me questions. It was very important to his dad and I that he understood fully what he was doing, and his reply was, "I do understand but I just want to love God and be close to him." So based on that response, and what we knew of our son, we let him. He wanted it, and I doubt if we would have any say so anyway, because he wanted it.

The one thing that destroyed his faith though?....was the fact that his dad and I told him and modeled in church one thing, yet at home we lived another. He was so sensitive, and smart, that he always saw us believing in God, serving in church, but we acted as if we hated each other, because my marriage was very tumultous and abusive and codependent, etc. etc. The term, "HYPOCRITE" became very real to him from watching his dad and I. We were his first taste of God, and so he was dissapointed to some degree and confused.

I divorced his dad years later, Chris got into drugs, alcohol, fights, school was a constant problem...and his dad took him to a counselor at his church...and Chris just shut down., became a very angry young teenager. When he was 16 he came to live with me, and destroyed my home, I have pictures on plates stuck in my walls like flying saucers, he used to throw food on the walls, and at one point literally destroyed and broke apart most of my furniture. When he was 18 he ended up in jail for a weekend for having brass knuckles in his pocket at a party that was raided. After that he met a girl whom he date for 7 years, and just broke up. In the interim he drank and did cocaine. He quit the drugs, but contiued to drink, but went back to church....as deep in his heart, he still really loved God, he still prayed at this time and tried to get his girlfriend involved. When they recently broke up about a year ago, he fell apart, went back to drugs more alcohol, and was suicidal. He was a responsible drunk...held a job, etc....except that he recently lost his job because he was so drunk one night before he was supposed to fly out that he missed his flight the next morning...he slept through it.

Things are beginning to sink in. He did not want to hear anything about God or the bible from me, because as I later learned from talking to him, and from some conversations i have head here on AAC...I totally came across as self-righteous and condemning. I used the God-band-aid, which is like throwing a bible verse out at someone who is in deep pain and expecting them to snap out of it...and it just does not work that way. He blamed God for all of his troubles, his alcoholism, his loss of his girlfriend, his living conditions, ALL of his problems. But if you ask him anything about God, he will amaze you with what he does know and believe. But he is sort of caught up in alot of guilt and shame, and being the perfectionist he is, will not go back to God as he once did until he can give his all. I tell him That's hogwash, that if we all waited to clean up our act before we went back, we would never go back. But I have had to learn to listen, not only with my ears but my heart...a real challenge for me, as I am so quick at times to judge.

So this is Chris. He is a hellion at heart, and a lover at heart. Looking at him I don't know whare he came from, he is so different from his dad and me. He is hysterical, and and very smart, personality plus, and can figure out people in seconds. He is also verbally abusive and very ugly when he drinks though. I pray for him ALL of the time, not out of self-righteousness, but out of love, and I want him to stop throwing his life away...but see, even that could be a judgement on my part.

Your second queestion:
"Are you saying you don't believe anyone when they say "blah blah blah, religion was hurtful to me because...." because that was not the case for you?"

No that is not what I am saying, I sincerely beleive you and and I believe religion can be hurtful. And, it was hurtful to me as well. I grew up in a Baptist church with a Sunday school teacher who told me I was going to go hell if I didn't hurry up and give my life to JC and get baptized. My whole experience with God as a child, was based on fear, fear of dying, guilt, shame, not being good enough, and as my son's experience, watching my parents take me to church every Sunday, Wednesday nite, and VBS every summer...I watched them hate each other....it didn't make sense to me either, and I never got a straight answer from anyone. It was shoved down my throat, and I grew up with a very warped view of who God was and how he could be important in my life. I didn't get to know him until I was 17 years old. So I do know about religion. I remember watching my friends as a child be frightened as well and make decisions out of fear. It did keep me out of alot of trouble in jr high and high school though...stuff like sex before marriage i didn't do, drugs i didn't do, but i did drink for a couple of years, but the guilt killed me! I didn't know what to do with it, now i do. And for along time, I blamed myself for my marriage breaking up...but I remember praying SO HARD. I told GOd that if he could part the Red Sea that he could save my marriage. And you know, I have seen couples that I know now turn their marriages around by faith, but they had to change from the inside out, and they did. I know couples now who are beleiving God for their marriages to work out, and knowing them, I sincerely believe they will, but mine did not. I saw no reason to stay in a roller coaster abusive marriage,....but that was me.
But in conclusion, my childhood church did it to me, and in a sense, my ex-husband and I did it to my son.

You asked: 'So from your heart you feel compelled to explain your beliefs? But sometimes it seems to me you retreat from direct questions.'

I think from my heart that yes, I at times feel compelled to explain my beliefs. I read the posts, and I see many familiar feelings and experiences. I wonder what compels someone to walk away from God, and what compels others to walk towards God, even with the same experiences. 'Indoctrination' is not the answer I don't believe. I was indoctrinated and fought it at all cost...I KNEW something wasn't right. But I really love God, I really do. And, I think I retreat from direct questions, because I think to myself,'no matter what i ever answer, it does not matter, and seems to make people angry or turns them more off to God.' Other times, I just do not have the time. I don't have AAC at home on my computer, I was spending so much time on here at home that I asked one of my sons to block the site. But I am at my office today, and I do not have anything going on...wonder of wonders! 🙂 and am taking the time to respond to your questions. So time is a big factor for me. Another reason I avoid answering is that, these conversations effect me negatively at times...I am not able to separate my beliefs from my lifestyle, and I just have to walk away, and leave them unanswered.

I have learned though, that I really need to learn to be honest andup front. I skirt around issues at times, and people-please....so my communication style through writing is is difficult.

Your question:
'I was wondering which scripture(s) this statement of yours is based on? "Regarding my statement about Iran invading Israel, yes it is in the OT and the NT. Russia will most likely do the same." Do you believe literally in the bible?'

I will look this up for you and let you know. And yes I believe literally in the Bible. It isn't just a book of teachings or words for me, it is 'alive' to me. Jesus says that the Word became flesh, so the Word, or the bible is JC. When I read it, God talks to me. If I ask him a question he answers it through the Holy Spirit. I have seen it change lives. I have seen people become whole and changed for the better, so why wouldn't I beleive in it...my experience of it speaks to me louder than anyone who does not.

Well, this has been long, but felt it important to get back to you.

take care.

June 21, 2007
3:34 pm
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Hi Robert 123,

Do I seriously beleive that 9/11 was planned by Bush?

You know, this is rally hard for me to discuss because, I have supported President Bush at all costs. But I also believe that mo matter how 'good' a person appears to be, there can be a misuse of power,there can be greed, there can be fear. The pictures shown of the Pentagon after the plane crashed, shows computer monitors still in place on a desk still in tact right at the point of onslaught. There is a book, untouched on a table right at the point of onslaught. The area of destruction is 14 feet, when the area of a plane said to have crashed is 65 feet. There was no wreckage of a plane found in the Pentagon, and the plane that was said to crash in the Pentagon is non-existent. Things like this that are factual make me wonder, but most of all it saddens me! If my gov't is corrupt for its own personal gain, it shows me how very messed up this world is...more than I thought it so. It is difficult to fathom or even it admit the possibility of it being true.

June 21, 2007
4:52 pm
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No, Matteo.

Communism is not a religion. Neither is a parliament, republic, dictatorship, theocracy, or a democracy. They are ways to govern countries.

The leaders of communist nations are athiest. You can't separate the two.

But if you must, if it makes you feel better, go ahead.

News alert for ya though: the psychotic god-dictator of North Korea is atheist. I guess this makes atheism a religion? You can't blame communism for the attrocities this evil atheist commits on a daily basis.

Atheism.

What a horrible disease. Just look at North Korea.

sounds pretty silly doesn't it?

Well, that's how y'all sound when you attack OMW and others who speak of their religion. AS if religions are just terrible and cause such catastrophic events etc, but atheism- oh, that belief system, or lack of one, whatever ya wanna call it, has never hurt anybody and it's just the way to go kuz it's logical and elightened and oh atheists are just so above everybody else. Vomiting here.

Well, that's just pathetically ignorant and one-sided.

free

June 21, 2007
5:26 pm
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OMW

one of my colleagues flew back to Washington to bury her niece who was in the Pentagon when it was hit. My own brother attended the funerals of two of his colleagues, who he worked at the Pentagon with.

It was hit by a large plane.

free

June 21, 2007
5:30 pm
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OMW

I just googled "eyewitness accounts of plane hitting Pentagon 911"

and there's page after page after page of them. Many, many people witnessed this.

Are you saying a plane never hit the Pentagon on 9/11?

free

June 21, 2007
5:36 pm
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I do agree with free's analyzation of all of our posts.

free,
Because there was no plane wreckage, because there was no black box, because a plane with fuel would have burned everything so close to it, they are saying on this video that it was a direct hit of a missle, and that one of our military planes did the damage to cover up records of what may have happened at Twin Towers. I don't think you will find anything on the internet but positive support. The people who put these videos together said that, videos do not even show a plane heading that way, and that all people outside were asked to evacuate by walking, not driving hours before it happened.

Who knows what really happened, but archtecturally speaking, there should have been more fire, more damage from a plane. The videos make sense...IF they are the truth.

June 21, 2007
5:38 pm
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I would rather believe everything is as it should be, but so many variables anywhere in the world now, IMHO, point to destructive efforts.

June 21, 2007
5:47 pm
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"The pictures shown of the Pentagon after the plane crashed, shows computer monitors still in place on a desk still in tact right at the point of onslaught. There is a book, untouched on a table right at the point of onslaught."

We have tornados here that leave things in place and destroy the rest of the house.

"The area of destruction is 14 feet, when the area of a plane said to have crashed is 65 feet."

Where does this information come from?

"There was no wreckage of a plane found in the Pentagon, and the plane that was said to crash in the Pentagon is non-existent."

Again where is your source of information?

"Things like this that are factual make me wonder, but most of all it saddens me!"

Well they aren't really factual until it is provable.

What is it you are hinting at then? The government blew up the pentagon?
Getting information from utube and other suspect sources is not proof to me.

June 21, 2007
5:55 pm
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Robert, I don't know!!! I am not saying that our gov't blew up our own Pentagon. But from the documentaries on the video it looks possible. I'm not trying to convince anyone here of this though. See how writing can be so misleading?

Here is the website:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....rG7RoEW_Ak

June 21, 2007
7:10 pm
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(((OMW)))

Thank you for sharing yourself with me. I know you have been here a lot longer than I have, and getting to know you otherwise would involve searching old posts. I don't have time right now, either. My heart goes out to you and your situation with your son. My sister has detoxed and rehab-ed and we are all waiting to see how that goes. Thank you.

OK! One more question- which creation story? The one in Genesis 1 or the one in Genesis - 2:4 to 2:25. They're different.

June 21, 2007
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bevdee,
Thank you. And I hope your sister will be ok, and able to move forward with her life. It hurts to see loved ones spiral downwards and to be powerless to do anything about it.

Your other question about Genesis...I didn't know there were 2 different creation stories! 🙂 but i will take a look and get back to you.

June 21, 2007
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bevdee,
Where do you see the differences?

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