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Is atheism a good thing?
June 21, 2007
10:28 pm
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why or why not?

The religion bashing- it's getting old. Been goin' on since I can remenber and I first came here in the 90's, I think. Maybe early 2000's. I dunno.

what about atheism?

Let's talk about it.

good or bad?

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June 21, 2007
11:18 pm
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Yes - it precludes the burdens of religious superstition imposed by illogical theistic beliefs.

June 21, 2007
11:19 pm
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Are atheist governments a good thing?

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June 22, 2007
5:17 pm
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Maybe determine what athiest govt's have done in the past?

My thoughts are that ALL people are valuable, athiest or Christian or Islam, etc. The problem arises when each tries to de-value ( is there such a word...) the other one due to their belief system, or sets themselves above the other as if they are more valuable.

And why are these religious wars on here and why have they gone on for so long? hmmmmmm...mmmmm...?

June 22, 2007
7:46 pm
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21-Jun-07

"Are atheist governments a good thing?"

How can anyone criticize a non-believer in nonsense?

June 22, 2007
8:45 pm
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I don't see any criticism of athiesm in the question. I don't see any criticism at all. It's a question.

Are athiest governments a good thing?

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June 22, 2007
10:59 pm
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"Are athiest governments a good thing?"

Yes - it precludes the burdens of religious superstition imposed by illogical theistic beliefs.

"Religion is the opiate of the masses" - at least Mao got one thing right. Addiction to an opiate is not a good thing.

June 23, 2007
12:07 am
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What governments, past and present, were/are athiest?

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June 25, 2007
4:04 pm
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anybody?

June 25, 2007
4:41 pm
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The Roman Empire.

June 25, 2007
4:45 pm
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Statistics:

Top 20 Countries
With Largest Numbers of Atheists / Agnostics
(Zuckerman, 2005)
Country Total country
population (2004) % Atheist/
Agnostic/
Nonbeliever in God Number of Atheists/
Agnostics
Nonbelievers in God
(minimum - maximum)

China 1,298,848,000 8 - 14%* 103,907,840 - 181,838,720

Japan 127,333,000 64 - 65% 81,493,120 - 82,766,450

Russia 143,782,000 24 - 48% 34,507,680 - 69,015,360

Vietnam 82,690,000 81% 66,978,900

Germany 82,425,000 41 - 49% 33,794,250 - 40,388,250

France 60,424,000 43 - 54% 25,982,320 - 32,628,960

USA 293,028,000 3 - 9% 8,790,840 - 26,822,520

Britain 60,271,000 31 - 44% 18,684,010 - 26,519,240

South Korea 48,598,000 30 - 52% 14,579,400 - 25,270,960

Canada 32,508,000 19 - 30% 6,176,520 - 9,752,400

Spain 40,281,000 15 - 24% 6,042,150 - 9,667,440

Ukraine 47,732,000 20% 9,546,400

Italy 58,057,000 6 - 15% 3,483,420 - 8,708,550

Sweden 8,986,000 46 - 85% 4,133,560 - 7,638,100

Netherlands 16,318,000 39 - 44% 6,364,020 - 7,179,920

Czech Republic 10,246,100 54 - 61% 5,328,940 - 6,250,121

Taiwan 22,750,000 24% 5,460,000

Australia 19,913,000 24 - 25% 4,779,120 - 4,978,250

Hungary 10,032,000 32 - 46% 3,210,240 - 4,614,720

Belgium 10,348,000 42 - 43% 4,346,160 - 4,449,640

June 25, 2007
4:53 pm
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In each gov't system there are now currently both believers and athiests. Christianity is spreading so fast. Then you have deep jungle, then you have Bosnia, but even Christianity is trickling in everywhere. The church I attend has widescreen videos playing constantly in Muslim countries...but then Muslims cannot be considered truly athiest. Even in the US though, and nationally we have HELLS ANGELS who run much of the country from underneath, they have so much power...some are athiests, some are not.

Largest Christian Populations in the World

Rank Country Christian Population
1 United States 189,983,000

2 Brazil 170,405,000

3 Mexico 96,614,000

4 China 86,801,000

5 Philipines 72,225,000

6 Germany 60,712,000

7 Nigeria 54,012,000

8 Italy 47,704,000

9 France 45,505,000

10 Congo, Democratic Republic of 42,283,000

Source: CIA World Factbook

June 25, 2007
7:10 pm
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thanks OMW. I've heard numerous times now that Christians are the most persecuted group in the world at this time. I don't know if that's factual though.

I think China has an athiest government. Here is some info on how people of spiritual belief are dealt with:

Chinese Atheist Government Atrocities:

Atheists of Communist China oppress the innocent East Turkestanese for their Muslim beliefs. A Japanese newspaper tells the tale of these oppressed Muslims: "Muslims are arrested on invalid grounds and sent off to labor camps, executed on groundless charges, and from time to time murdered en masse. They are not allowed to fast, and are prevented from receiving religious instruction. The method used to stop the Muslim population from growing is utterly inhuman: Women are forced to have abortions, and the children of those who have more than one child are taken away from them. ...The greatest assistance that can be given is to wage a struggle on the level of ideas to destroy the atheism that all that oppression stems from, and replace it with a just and proper morality. In that way, not just the Muslims of East Turkestan but all those who are wickedly killed all over the world, or are forced from their homelands just for saying, 'God is our Lord,' or can be helped" (from Chinese Torture in East Turkestan).

"Amalia Rubin from 'Students for a Free Tibet' revealed the atrocity the CCP laid on Tibetan people and Tibetan Buddhism. So far, one fifth of Tibet's population, 1.2 million Tibetans died under CCP's tyranny" (from ntdtv.com May 4th, 2005).

From 1959-66 the Atheistic government tightened it's strangle-hold over Tibetan Buddhism. "Monasteries were targeted as the backbone of Tibetan society. By 1966, before the Cultural Revolution began, 80% of central Tibet's 2,700 monasteries had been destroyed. Of 115,600 monks and nuns only 6,900 remained". "During the Cultural Revolution, all religious activity was banned; religious institutions were razed; texts and sacred objects destroyed; monks and nuns imprisoned and tortured; many were killed. By 1978, only eight monasteries were left standing, and 970 monks and nuns remained". The slaughter and persecution of these Tibetan Monks by the Atheistic government was horrific to take them from over 115 Thousand strong, down to less than one thousand.

Mao slaughtered Christians when he gained Atheistic control over China. This persecution of Christians in China continues today. Reporting from ntdtv.com May 4th, 2005 states: "Li narrated the stories of many Christian victims who were brutally persecuted by the CCP, as well as his own life experience in China's largest forced labor camp. ...[U]pon the call from God, he started to devote himself to collecting and publishing relevant documents pertaining to religious persecution of Christians in China, and founded the 'Investigative Organization of Religious Persecution in China'. Mr. Li published in New York and Europe six top-secret government documents, which revealed the systematic persecution of Christians by the Chinese government and a 'White Paper', compiled by him. His reports reveal that over 440 thousand Christians in China were sentenced to forced labor camp, and over ten thousand were persecuted to death". In 2002 the Atheist government reports on their Christian-related activities: "According to our investigation among House Church Christians, at this time there are 23,686 persons who have been arrested for religious activities, 4,014 persons sentenced to re-education, 129 persons killed, 208 persons handicapped, 997 persons placed under surveillance, 1,040 persons on the run, 20,000+ beaten, 10,000 fined (ranging from $.50 to $800,000)". "[P]rominent Beijing House church leader pastor Zhuohua Cai was tortured severely with electric cattle prods by his interrogators for his 'confessions' that he 'illegally managing a printing business and illegally profited 200,000RMB'.(US $25,000)".

China not only persecutes and murders official religions, but has waged war against religious movements or life philosophies, such as their inhumane treatment of members of Falun Gong. "Evidence has surfaced of over 100 torture methods being employed against Falun Gong practitioners in China's labour camps, detention centers, and mental hospitals. The goal is to eradicate Falun Gong, either by coercing its practitioners to renounce their belief, or by physically destroying them if they refuse. The tactics range from long-term sleep deprivation, being surrounded with loudspeakers demonizing their practice 24 hours a day, to being force-fed with human feces, or shocked and even raped with electric batons." There are many personal testamonies on Falun Gong websites. "I spoke the truth about Falun Gong, exercising my constitutional rights. I was unreasonably persecuted, and because of the severe abuse, I became disabled. I am condemning the Chinese government: they persecuted practitioners with savage mental and physical cruelty, and I am holding them responsible for the pain and suffering my family has had to endure because of the treatment I have received. I ask kind people around the world to join with me to help stop this persecution". "On October 21, 2000, Ms. Wang Lixuan and her eight-month-old son, Meng Hao, were arrested and detained at Tuanhe Labor Camp in Beijing, where they were tortured to death on November 7, 2000. When her family received the death notice and arrived in Beijing, they found the frozen corpses of Ms. Wang and her son. According to the coroner's examination, her neck and knucklebones were broken, her skull was sunken, and there was a needle stuck in her body".

http://freedomdefender.blogspot.com/2005/05/atrocities-of-atheism-episode-ii.html

hmmmmmm......I think Tez had posted on another thread that Mao had one think right: religion is the opiate of the people and is bad. I guess getting rid of the people gets rid of the opiate. I wonder if atheist governments are a good thing though, as Tez states, especially given that they conduct these atrocities towards their own people.

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June 25, 2007
7:18 pm
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Apparently Cambodia has been hit with the tragedy of an atheist government gaining power over its people as well: The infamous Kmher Rouge

Pol Pot's Atheist Khmer Rouge Government Atrocities in Cambodia:

Khmer Rouge's under Pol Pot's reign began the Cambodian Atheist oppression. "[I]n Cambodia... 'as a percentage of a nation's total population, the worst genocide appears to be that in Cambodia, formerly Kampuchea. According to the Khmer Rouge foreign minister, more than one third of the eight million Khmer were killed between April 17, 1975 and January 1979. One third of the entire country was put to death under the rule of Pol Pot." In Cambodia, Khmer Rouge (headed by Pol Pot) was an Atheist group that controlled the Government and performed acts of Genocide on it's non-Atheist population.

"Khmer Rouge immediately expelled the entire population of the capital city Phnom Pehn and began policies which resulted in the genocides of Cham Muslims"."[B]etween 400,000 and 500,000 Muslims perished during the Khmer Rouge period... In Oukoubah, Osman details 13 cases of torture, imprisonment and death".

"Cambodians perished under Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge regime. The victims included 10,000 of Cambodia's 12,000 Christians who died in Pol Pot's 'Killing Fields' in the late 1970s".

"The Buddhist clergy (sangha) was decimated, including monks and nuns. Fewer than 5,000 of Cambodia's 65,000 monks survived the1970s. Most endured hard labor, starvation or torture. An estimated 25,000 monks were executed".

I don't think an atheist government was a good thing for the people of Cambodia.

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June 25, 2007
10:17 pm
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You wrote:

"I think China has an athiest government"

Silly me in thinking that China had a communist government. Oh well we live and learn. Hmm!!

And then from some source unreferenced by you, you quoted:

"The Buddhist clergy (sangha) was decimated, including monks and nuns. Fewer than 5,000 of Cambodia's 65,000 monks survived the1970s. Most endured hard labor, starvation or torture. An estimated 25,000 monks were executed".

You seem to me to be unaware that the Buddha taught that no God exists at all.

Strange that you think an atheist government would treat fellow atheists so badly? Perhaps the government of which you speak, was not based upon atheisism at all but some twisted version of the communist manifesto in which superstition is minimized to the extent of non-belief in any god.

Hmmm! You are exhibiting more befuddled thinking, perhaps?

I am far from an apologist for communism. I don't believe that communism works at all. I doubt that communism would exist if it weren't for the excesses of capitalism.

Equating communism with atheism is just as stupid as equating capitalism with Christianity even though capitalism(greed) seems to flourish in Christian countries. I wonder why this is? Strange that!

Why not get rid of all these red herrings you keep trying to introduce?

June 25, 2007
11:13 pm
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Oh Tez- just as sweet and kind as ever. Always such a pleasure to do conversation with you.

NOT

free

June 25, 2007
11:21 pm
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Oh Tez- just as sweet and kind as ever. Always such a pleasure to do conversation with you.

NOT

You say governments aren't athiest, their communist.

I can't find a communist government that is NOT atheist.

I can't find an atheist government that is NOT communist.

It seems atheists, when in a position of power, must take away free thought from it's people, and so communism or a dictatorship like the one in North Korea emerges.

Gosh, can't you see that link? It's so obvious.

Get some sleep Tez. Your logic is jut- well, comical on this subject.

Your radical facist anti-theism could be destroying brain cells.

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June 25, 2007
11:35 pm
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Here Tez:

Religion
The Orthodox Church was disestablished in 1918, soon after the Soviet government took power, and all Church property - which was immensely valuable - was nationalized. The Soviet government was an atheist government by official definition.

http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/node/955

You knew this. You play games with words. You waste my time. I'm done googling to support the obvious. You do it.

You stated atheist governments are good.

Well, they're not.

Atheist governments have in the past, and currently, commit numerous attrocities towards their own citizens and have been, and are currently, guilty of horrendous human rights violations against their own citizens. They persecute religious people.

Toot your trumpet all you want. Pass the buck all ya want.

Atheist governments are what they are.

You're done wasting my time.

free

June 25, 2007
11:55 pm
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Tez ~ "Silly me in thinking that China had a communist government. Oh well we live and learn." Yeah, I was thinking the same; didn't I say how fortunate it is that free can enlighten us?

You've said: "Equating communism with atheism is just as stupid as equating capitalism with Christianity even though capitalism(greed) seems to flourish in Christian countries. I wonder why this is? Strange that!" -
Max Weber talks about it in his book "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism".

Since you've mentioned greed - I didn't read his books (hopefully one day), just read about them, and from what I've read this guy was a genius. He predicted, among other things, the alienation of people from each other and ironically from achieving full human potential in capitalist societies (as a consequence of capitalism) as well as meaningless working for the sake of working - without the spiritual element which was the driving force to accumulate wealth (to appear as deserving of salvation) in the beginning of capitalism. It is truly astonishing to see so many so wealthy people working crazy hours and/or putting up with so much of all kind of crap just to get more wealthy, while complaining that they are not wealthy enough, isn't it? Seems to have no end. But I guess that's another topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber

June 26, 2007
2:38 am
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism:

"Atheism, as a philosophical view, is the position that either affirms the nonexistence of gods or rejects theism. When defined more broadly, atheism is the absence of belief in deities, alternatively called nontheism. Although atheists are commonly assumed to be irreligious, some religions, such as Buddhism, have been characterized as atheistic.

Many self-described atheists are skeptical of all supernatural beings and cite a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of deities. Others argue for atheism on philosophical, social or historical grounds. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism and naturalism, there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere.

The term atheism originated as a pejorative epithet applied to any person or belief in conflict with established religion. With the spread of freethought, scientific skepticism, and criticism of religion, the term began to gather a more specific meaning and was sometimes used as a self-description by atheists."

June 26, 2007
2:40 am
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last paragraph shouldn't be in bold.

June 26, 2007
3:58 pm
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Right. And the Pope isn't Christian, he's Catholic.

Thank you for the definition of atheism.

I was speaking of atheist governments. I can't find an atheist government that is not communist. let me know if you do. I'm genuinely interested.

As it currently stands, there is no atheist government that is not also Communist. As far as I know.

so how can it be said that atheist governments are a good thing?

Without Communism, atheist governments don't even exist.

As for " Yeah, I was thinking the same; didn't I say how fortunate it is that free can enlighten us? "

sounds condescending and rude- one of your continual lectures- oh miss preacher of appropriate manners. Try your own advice on for size.

free

June 26, 2007
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free,
exactly...let's say based on the golden rule of do unto others as you would have them do unto you....does not exist in a communist/atheist country. The US is now currently offering asylum to couples who wish to birth their female fetuses, not abort it because it is not a male. And China is poisoning us!///lead in our children's toys, anti-freeze in our toothpaste, and posion in dog food!

Athiesm is an attitude of the heart, towards others and oneself. It does not birth much except a dictatorship if it is in gov't.

Then there is secular humanism, which is a form of athiesm, as it does not include any power outside of oneself...it's I...I...I...

It is black and white in this case, yes or no, there is no gray area, no inbetween.

free,...with ya all the way here.

June 26, 2007
5:27 pm
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Whoa! What free, cannot take a little sarcasm?

I don’t think I preach nearly as much as you do, and please don’t call me rude; I am not the one who constantly insults people, you are. No matter what topic, if someone says something which you don’t like you are having a fit. Pour some cold water on your face and for a change try to fight the message, not the messenger.

To answer your question:

Every government follows some kind of ideology, more often than not an ideology of the ruling party. Atheism is, as stated above, a philosophical view, not ideology; it doesn't have a manifesto and members who pay the membership fees, have meetings and elect their leader. Since atheism has "no ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere", it cannot be followed by any government, simply because there is nothing to follow. Therefore there are no "atheist governments".

There are governments which separate religion and state, like France, but they are not atheist governments, they are secular. There are governments which have nontheism as a philosophy embedded in their ruling party manifesto, but they are not atheist governments, they are socialist or communist.

Your statement: "I can't find a communist government that is NOT atheist" is the same like: "I cannot find a tomato which is NOT a fruit". Sure, tomato is a fruit and cauliflower is a flower, but first of all they are vegetables; you don’t eat tomatoes with ice-cream and you don’t buy a bouquet of cauliflowers to please your lover. Regarding the "I can't find an atheist government that is NOT communist" – well, I cannot find any atheist government at all.
There is no such thing, as an "atheist government"; you invented it, free, after the site you gave a link to. I wouldn't believe everything what is written on the net.

Please try not to have a fit, it is really getting old. Have a nice day.

June 26, 2007
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Matteo:

"please don't a fit"- in other words, "please don't disagree with anything I say."

I can't give you that. Atheistic governments were not invented by me. The Chinese government is officially atheist. That's not my invention. Many governments are officially Islamic. That's not my invention either. You say don't believe what I read on the web, and you post definitions and things from where? The web. Oh, brother.

You're the preacher of "condescending, rude, disrespectful, " blah blah blah. And you do the same. Mirror, woman, look in a mirror. I know I'm sarcastic and rude sometimes. I can admit that kuz I know I'm not perfect. Other people are sarcastic and rude too. Tez especially.

You are too. But so what. Nobody's perfect.

If I have what you percieve as a "fit" here's a suggestion: just ignore it if it bothers you. that's what I do with your manners lectures and it works great. I can have a fit if I wanna have a fit. And I can ignore your "scolding" if I want to as well. You're not my mother.

I'm having a great day, thank you very much. I love my job and we even talked about all this in class. Puting in a pumpkin patch as I've a huge backyard with a hillside and a ZEN spot. VERY peaceful back there. I wish all people could have a place like this.

Tez- you're ugliness just isn't worth my time anymore. Happy wallowing.

best to both of you

free

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