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If there really is such a thing as reincarnation, can I please come back as...........
August 16, 2004
2:01 pm
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workinonit
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Tez, I am not sure that I feel we are meant to grasp this "absolute truth". Absolute is 'all'.

We are units of the all experiencing our relative truth for the collective understanding or experience of the absolute.

So , if this is correct, we are in some part one with the absolute but being of it cannot see it for what it is.

The earth is a "form" or creative platform for intelligent energy. Would you agree with this? The whole purpose of this landscape is to bring energy into form. So, here we are again at the point of not seeing because we are of this truth.

I spent several years in my twenties, agonizing over these concepts. Overthinking everything and feeling crazed about it. I finally decided that for me, knowing there is more, is enough. If I were supposed to understand I would. All in it's time. Right now, putting energy into anything that does not feel right is a waste of the time I should be experiencing something to grow with. I'll get there.

August 16, 2004
6:33 pm
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Workinonit.

You said.

"Tez, I am not sure that I feel we are meant to grasp this "absolute truth". Absolute is 'all'."

This is the staggering thing about Buddhist beliefs. Omniscience is a byproduct of the enlightenment of a Buddha. Apparently, according to Buddhist thought, we are all buddhas who just don't 'know' it yet!!! But in time we will.

And:

"We are units of the all experiencing our relative truth for the collective understanding or experience of the absolute."

Our discriminating minds are what diferentiates us into the "units" of which you speak. But this discriminating mind game is at the root of our delusions. It brings about the duality of 'self and other than self' that causes so much suffering.

Since the Absolute is already omniscient and always has been then "the collective understanding or experience of the absolute" is, was and always will be complete. Perhaps, using your word, we are a "part" of that completeness beyond time - time that is of our own mind's fabrication perhaps. Again the word "part" implies other than "part" - duality again. As an aside, if no material whatsoever existed within outer space would time exist? Did time begin with the big bang??

And:

"The earth is a "form" or creative platform for intelligent energy."

Just as I did and still do, you are using the intellect to try to understand that which is beyond its capabilities. The intellect discriminates, differentiates, demarcates, dissects, analyses. All of this constitutes part of the deluded mind's activities. Zen Buddhist koans such as "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" are designed to smash the grip that the intellect has on the deluded mind and to allow other faculties of mind to see what 'really is'!! Other faculties of mind??? Again more duality on my part.

And:

"Right now, putting energy into anything that does not feel right is a waste of the time I should be experiencing something to grow with. I'll get there. "

Here I would 100% agree. Our true natures know that our intellectualizing "does not feel right". We need to let go of all our preconditioning and to 'see' anew with our 'third eye of wisdom' - without forgetting that compassion is the other wing upon which our mind will fly beyond our very restrictive, self-imposed boundaries.

August 16, 2004
7:41 pm
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workinonit
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Tez, this line is poetic as well as thoughtful, "compassion is the other wing upon which our mind will fly beyond our very restrictive, self-imposed boundaries."

This sums up the feelings I have when I read the other thread regarding the notion that Jesus was a doormat. How absurd (oops, that was judgemental, sorry) that Jesus would even think in these terms.

Would you say that the Christ conciousness and the Buddha state of absolute understanding are akin to each other or possibly the same? I have thought before that the masters are mistaken for what they are not. Saviors, warriors, and prophets. Or is it that they are all of these? Possibly, the way is all they are here to show which is more than we have grasped. At least collectively.

This is interesting, "Just as I did and still do, you are using the intellect to try to understand that which is beyond its capabilities. The intellect discriminates, differentiates, demarcates, dissects, analyses. All of this constitutes part of the deluded mind's activities" I have read that the dimensions we are aware of, only allow us to see so far. There are other dimensions to make themselves known as the mind begins to know and see further. What do you know of this?

August 17, 2004
7:07 pm
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Workinonit.

"Would you say that the Christ conciousness and the Buddha state of absolute understanding are akin to each other or possibly the same? "

I don't really know the answer to that question. However, if pushed for an opinion, I would say that Christ was a Bodhisattva, a very advanced human being who had great realizations indeed. If you read the Gospels of St. Thomas, you will see very Buddhist doctrine coming through the writings. Of course Constantine had this gospel removed from the Christian Bible.

I suspect that Christ had contact with Buddhism sometime between the ages of 16 and 30 when he is purported to have travelled to India, the country of the Buddha. I think that Christ was about bringing Buddhist, Jain and Hindu insights into the Judaic religion of the time. Christ talked a lot about love(compassion). I suspect that Judaism was lacking in compassion in Christ's time. This I suspect was Christ's intent; namely to bring love into the Hebrew religion. But I don't really know this to be a fact, only my suspicions.

You asked:

"There are other dimensions to make themselves known as the mind begins to know and see further. What do you know of this? "

The Buddha talked about these other dimensions or realms in some detail. I've never worried too much about them. I'm still struggling with this one. Rightly or wrongly, I regard learning about other realms as being a distraction from my present purpose of clearing 'my' mind of its present delusions.

August 17, 2004
8:09 pm
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Hello Tez,

I agree that forward thinking
(future dimensions)can distract from the moment but it can also give someone a reason to relax. We know that we are simply not in the final realm and so we can only know what is available to know.

You said, "This I suspect was Christ's intent; namely to bring love into the Hebrew religion. But I don't really know this to be a fact, only my suspicions."
I too, think Jesus was bringing a message of love to the masses. The misrepresentation of the biblical writers is confusing to many, even today. I wonder; why don't others think this through? I see things that are plain but why is it not plain to others? It seems to me that we see as we grow. This is a reason to remain non-judgemental. I work on that daily.

I expect too much.

August 18, 2004
6:05 pm
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workinonit
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Hey twinks, how do you know she wasn'y reaching out to tell you that's all that really matters? Laughter.

August 18, 2004
6:20 pm
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Workinonit.

You said:
"I agree that forward thinking (future dimensions)can distract from the moment but it can also give someone a reason to relax."

Yes ... to what you are referring is a panacea for existential fear. You, like the rest of us, are probably unconsciously asking yourself: "Will I be alright during my death and after it? Will I cope with the unknown?" But such questions presuppose the existence of an "I" who will be experiencing a threat to its wellbeing during and after death. Again I ask: Can you you find this "I" here and now??? Point to it! If you find yourself pointing to your chest then ask yourself: "What parts of your body are really you?" Are you your feet, your vagina, your arms, your mouth, etc? Did Douglas Bader, the famous WW2 Battle of Britain pilot, want to keep his amputated legs because they were part of his "I"? Did he think that his 'tin' legs were a part of his "I"? In the end this hypothetical body dismantling and discarding procedure can be extended to every part of our physiology, even as far as to our brain being kept alive in a sustaining fluid filled jar - one day even brain transplants will be possible!

Dr. LeDoux the famous NYU Labs neuroscientist has posited that we are our 'synapses' in our brain. If this were so then how is it that brain dead people see and know their loved ones thoughts and actions many rooms away - and the incidences have been verified for accuracy. Thus we are not even our brains. In fact the 'we', the collective 'I's, cannot be found anywhere because they are figments of our deluded minds.

The real question is: "what is the basis of consciousness?" The Buddha has said that the basis of consciousness is consciousness itself. Awareness is? Levels of awareness fluctuate wildly. 'Conditioning' of awareness is what largely limits it. Remove the conditioning and you remove the limits!! That is an extraordinary prospect. Yet NDE'rs say that the reality that they experienced during their Near Death Experiences was more real, more vivid than anything experienced in their body. Yet the limiting 'I'ness still exists after death, only with less basis for clinging to the illusion.

You also said:

" We know that we are simply not in the final realm and so we can only know what is available to know."

What is available to know is to know "All" - omniscience! All that we need to do is to remove the deluding curtain of 'selfhood' completely from the mind. Death will NOT do that automatically unfortunately. Developing compassion for other suffering conscious awarenesses is the start of this process.

We take the 8th layer of consciousness, called the 'alaya consciousness', with us after death. It is this impermanent consciousness level that contains our past 'conditioning'(karma) together with our 'past life' memories. It is this consciousness stream, not any permanent soul, that people regress to under hypnosis. It is this 'previously conditioned' consciousness stream that together with the causes and conditions present in the womb at the time of conception, that interacts with the embryo to 'start' the conditioning process off in the development of yet another sentient being.

Can we not take rebirth and go permanently to another ultimate realm beyond the possibility of suffering - a kind of heaven? Yes.

But the pertinent question is: Who will be doing 'the going' to this other realm???

The Buddha met the prerequisites for this 'passage' by losing his 'self-hood'. Now, according to his own words, the Buddha both exists and does not exist in mahaparinirvana which pervades all things! - "All seeing All". But can you and I 'lose' our mind's dualistic subject/object mindsets and just see 'All seeing All'? That is what is required. Otherwise it is "whoops here we go again. Another body, another life, another new 'I' coming up. Phew! Still in the Circle Game." 🙂

August 18, 2004
6:32 pm
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Twinks.

Ask the minister precisely what will happen during the dying and after immediately we death and see what he says. At best, I predict that he will present you with some highly generalized waffle.

Having recourse to their memories of previous deaths, and between death and life periods, the Tibetan Lamas have documented the exact process in their commentary called 'The Bardo Thodol', translated roughly as The Tibetan Book of the Dead and Dying. Several Authors have translated this highly informative work, Richard Burton, ? Thurman, Sogyl Rinpoche, just to name a few.

August 19, 2004
10:39 am
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workinonit
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Wow Tez, I am truly thankful at this moment. My whole life has been glimmers of enlightenment only to return to living the fear. You were right. The idea of dying scares me. ( I almost wrote "to death") I have heard and read about many NDE's also and, have a good feeling while I am in that reading moment but without a constant connection to my center, I loose this sense.

I have wondered at times if I crave the drama or what is the tie? There is a song by Garbage I think called, "I'm only happy when it rains". I think, is this what the problem is? am I only happy when I am in pain? Don't get me wrong, I am a positive person but fear holds me back from making choices that will set me free in many ways. I'd have to rely on myself for God's sake!! How tough can this really be? and why don't many of us step out from under the comfort zone we've created to even try? FEAR

You stated, "We take the 8th layer of consciousness, called the 'alaya consciousness', with us after death. It is this impermanent consciousness level that contains our past 'conditioning'(karma) together with our 'past life' memories. It is this consciousness stream, not any permanent soul, that people regress to under hypnosis. It is this 'previously conditioned' consciousness stream that together with the causes and conditions present in the womb at the time of conception, that interacts with the embryo to 'start' the conditioning process off in the development of yet another sentient being."

I never thought about karma as previous conditioning but it is a logical next step to my thinking process. I have thought of original sin in depth as I grew up Catholic and this concept was fascinating. I believe it is the life circumstance we are born into including our parents. I only recently heard that the condition of our mothers state of mind during gestation can contribute to the personality and overall being someone becomes. This makes sense to me as I reflect on my own siblings and my own children, I have three.

I also appreciate the concept that we do not know anymore simply because we pass over. The growth must continue as you say or... "Otherwise it is "whoops here we go again. Another body, another life, another new 'I' coming up. Phew! Still in the Circle Game." 🙂

I love this stimulation Tez. Thanks

August 19, 2004
6:15 pm
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Workinonit.
"... I have wondered at times if I crave the drama ..."

I think we all do; that's why we keep coming back. I used to have a recurring death dream every night wherein I experienced dying of aphyxiation, terror and all. I was experiencing sleep apnea symptoms wherein the death risk was indeed real. I would wake up heart pounding gasping for air. I decided to befriend my death dream. As I went to sleep each night I would instruct myself to ask myself the question whilst in the death dream:"What is it about dying that I fear?". I was successful. The Answer that I got was. "I'm frightened of losing the plot." I interpret that to mean that I crave the drama of life's experiences. To 'lose the plot' means to 'bang out of the play altogether'. So ... it is this craving for the drama that keeps pulling me back and back and back and back ... until I see the games the mind is playing and let go of all my delusions of 'I'hood and of finding permanent happiness in one of these lives on earth.

Seng T'san was the 3rd Patriach of the Ch'an(Chinese Zen) School of Buddhist thought. Master Hsing Yun, alive today, is the 48th Patriach of this same school.

Seng T'san wrote a very deep poem called Faith In Mind. It is freely available on many sites. Below is one such sites URL

http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-c.....n-mind.htm

Heres just a snippet from that great poem.

"... Do not abide in dualistic views;

take care not to seek after them.

As soon as there is right and wrong

The mind is scattered and lost.

Two comes from one,

Yet do not even keep the one.

When one mind does not arise,

Myriad dharmas are without defect.

Without defect, without dharmas,

No arising, no mind.

The subject is extinguished with the object.

The object sinks away with the subject.

Object is object because of the subject;

Subject is subject because of the object.

Know that the two

Are originally one emptiness.

In one emptiness the two are the same,

Containing all phenomena.

Not seeing fine or coarse,

How can there be any bias? ..."

August 19, 2004
9:26 pm
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So I suppose what is left after all of this is...workinonit.

August 19, 2004
11:26 pm
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workinonit,
In one of the above threads...you said that you almost wrote "to death" well, interesting that you should mention that - because at one particular place and time - at a very low point in my life several years ago - I did just that. My short poem is as follows: "Oh Death, come quickly upon my door, and spread your veil of calm....that I might finally rest - alas.....a peaceful sleep." (I wrote that one on the brink of suicide...which thankfully, I did not succumb to.)I share this - for whatever it may be worth.

August 21, 2004
3:32 am
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The human mind is a funny thing. We have the ability to see into the future, to conjecture. Yet we don't have the lifespan to see the fruition of all we can dream, for ourselves or everyone around us or the whole world. Death comes too fast. We don't have enough time, it seems, to develop "the plot". We catch glimpses of ultimate reality but the physical body is so finite that it cannot encompass the experience. Quite fascinating.

Maybe the "no arising, no mind" is the zero degrees kelvin I was pondering.

August 21, 2004
6:01 pm
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brendalee, Thank you for sharing with me. I want to say I am sorry but I feel somehow you came to a better conclusion about some aspect of your life. Can I say congratulations?

I am doing that as well but thankfully I am not wanting to lose this life. I wonder too if the veil of calm you speak of can be found within ourselves. Somehow I think this is true.

August 21, 2004
6:03 pm
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Cici...but isn't it fascinating to think of what we can create? Imagine if you could see the big picture and the results of what we are doing!!! We may never have the nerve to create again so it may be better that we are only responsible for ourselves and our own little place in the universal "plot" as brendalee says.

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