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If there really is such a thing as reincarnation, can I please come back as...........
July 29, 2004
9:17 pm
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workinonit
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My mistake for not grasping a reality. Somewhat ego somewhat not.. needing to grow does not make me wrong or right does it?

I know you not Tez. I only know me and so every experience is related to the known. Am I apologizing for myself? I hope not because I am only reacting from me as well as you are reacting from you. So you retreat and I have not. My method of reacting is maybe to be a bit too trite in my responses. That is all I will feel bad for because any more is not good for me.

You on the other hand, are best to do what is good for you. Whether from the I or from the whole. I believe it all is eventually understood and so I will not worry.

Some could misinterpret what you offer as being an aggregate but I think not. Show me the you who you really are. You do not know the true me either and I feel you misinterpreted me because of someone elses interpretation. There are strange faces that resemble layers for all of us to peel away. I don't know at what level I am nor do I know what level you are. As a human being I am not sure you do either. If so, it is something I do not understand.

I admit I am on the path. Please do not mis-read me. I have a true heart and will not ever be purposefully causing pain to you or any one.

July 30, 2004
12:52 pm
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Cici
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😀

Tez, "BACK in BLACK" (Betcha never pegged this one as an AC/DC fan).

've felt, since that egoless experience, like part of my brain hangs in one realm, and the other part in another. Weirdly disjointed. Sometimes I get this medicine-heady feeling when I'm walking in public places and people look like wisps to me, crowding around each other like flames or insects, validating the delusion of their own I-ness. And some people get irritated, angry, or feel like you're creepy when you look at them like that. Why is that?

've noticed that meself. Get all uppity when my mind thinks that someone has attacked my ego. I feel intially a strong impulse to defend it, but it's like that impulse is made of satin or something, instead of heavy crushed velvet like it used to...or velcro, har har har. The impulse to defend myself flares up and slips away, so if I act within a 10 minute period or so, I end up falling into the delusion of I-ness further. If I resist, I let it go. I let me go, I guess.

n-e-ways...the wise man knows how little he knows. or whatever. yeah. what he said. snicker.

Still I gotta say, I feely floaty most of the time.

July 30, 2004
1:41 pm
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Cici
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ah no skin off anybody's nose. We all do that kinda stuff. life happens...anyways, apology unnecessary but accepted in complete good faith 🙂

When I was little, I decided that I would come back in my next life as a cat. I have no idea why. I used to make tape recordings of myself running around talking to my family and giving rambling, 5 year old speeches to imaginary audiences. I found one recently where I had a long digression on being reincarnated as a cat. Yes, I used the word reincarnated when I was 5. My mom is buddhist.

I think it has something to do with the fact that they spend 70% of their lives sleeping in warm spots throughout the house. snicker.

July 31, 2004
5:59 pm
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On being a cat:

"You have so much wealth but because you have so many problems sometimes you might even wish, “Oh, if I were a cat — how wonderful it would be!” Thinking that there would be no problems then, no relationship problems. ... ... ... ...

Wishing to be an animal or something like that is because you are not aware — just because you do not see that they have problems it does not mean that they do not have problems. It is just that you are not aware of them, you have not checked up well enough. ... ... ...

You can see what it is like, this ignorance that holds the I to be truly existent. In our everyday life, from morning until night, each time that we do different activities, even now, each time that you think of yourself, you label I, an I is labeled on the aggregates. That labeling of an I is like labeling one’s own name, whatever one’s own name is, as it has been labeled by the parents. I is like that. Each time that other people see you, they label your name on your aggregates. Each time that you label I, it is merely labeled on these aggregates—just as other people merely label you when they see your body, or like when your parents gave you your name, or when other people talk about you. All this is merely labeled.

The I that appears to exist, as though it were real, is only that label, that is all. But the I that is merely labeled on the aggregates does not appear as though it were merely labeled. It does not appear as it is, it appears as though it existed from its own side.

The I that is merely labeled on these aggregates appears as though it were not merely labeled on these aggregates, but as if it existed from its own side, not being dependent on the aggregates, but independent, and existing from its own side. Not being dependent on thought which labels and not being dependent on the name, but existing in its own right.

This ignorance, the conception, the thought that completely clings to the belief that the I that appears to exist from its own side is one hundred per cent true — this is the ignorance that holds the I to be self-existent, clinging to the I as being truly existent. " - Lama Zopa Rinpoche

--------------------

I suspect that it is this illusory self-existent I - an 'I' who seems to exist from its own side and who possesses my aggregates - that suffers the discontent, dissatisfactions and downright pain that comes from not feeling OK about being that illusory 'I' and from possessing 'my' less than perfect 'aggregates'. I would prefer to be Mel Gibson - as if he has any more peace and happiness than I do. 🙂

So if this 'I' is illusory, who is it that is feeling the pain - and for that matter who is it that is doing the reincarnating anyway??????

August 1, 2004
1:53 pm
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workinonit
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I suppose the only way to not feel the pain is to not accept the pain as real. But then agin that was an I statement.

Tez, do you ever think maybe it's not that complicated? Our existence is a way for the collective conciousness to experience different ideas of reality. Though, your reality is as important as any other so maybe there is need for the complication. Hmmmm. Got me thinking out loud.

Hope you are weel, and still enjoying exchange of ideas.

August 1, 2004
7:15 pm
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Workinonit.

You said:

"...do you ever think maybe it's not that complicated?"

The multidimensional matrix of cause, conditions and effects is extremely complicated; perhaps beyond understanding by all but the 'Buddha Mind'.

Based upon this thought, I guess that understanding human behavior is only as complicated as our delusions make it. However, since we cling to our hard core beliefs as though they encapsulate unquestionable truths, our delusions are usually well hidden from us. If they weren't hidden, then we would hardly be deluded.

The Diamond Sutra is exquisite in its simplicity and succinctness. Yet its depths are unplumbable except by the 'Buddha Mind'.

Do you, like the rest of us, use phrases like "I am feeling sick" rather than "this body is malfunctioning"? The former statement clearly demonstrates that our belief in the existence of our 'I' is beyond question.

Is your 'I' dependent upon your body for its existence - or is its existence independent?

The following questions are best answered from an experiential basis rather than an intellectual one.

If you can sit quietly, comfortably with your eyes closed then you can try to experience your 'I'. You can focus your mind on the breath going in and out of you without trying to control it. To yourself, you can count each breath up to ten and then start counting again. When the mind has quietened down, then you can then focus on the 'I' who is doing the counting. Then you may 'experience' the answer to the following questions.

Does this 'I', the possessor of your body, lie within or outside of you?

Can you find the location of this 'I' who possesses your body?

August 2, 2004
7:54 pm
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Cici
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In Japanese movies, from the weird Ringu trilogy, to the crazily violent gangster movies - there is this idea that can't be translated, a concept that you can't really directly translate but maybe associate with the idea of will.

I think of this when I think of the billiards game in relation to the concept of samsara and reincarnation. In the horror movies they describe the eternal, undying horror of will that is fueled by evil intention. Not scary to westerners, so the western version of the movie (The Ring) relies on goopy special effects and startling imagery.

So there is this idea in this head, of the fact that every action creates a catapulting series of consequences that stem entirely from the initial intention.

Intention. Will. The energy that is conveyed between the clacking billiard balls. Does this make any sense?

So what is the result of inaction, a lack of intention? The ceasing of molecular movement? Zero degrees kelvin?

August 3, 2004
9:04 pm
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workinonit
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Tez, I need some time with this. Of course you know the 'I' I am speaking from..unfortunately, the only one familiar to me but, I am willing to seek......

Give me what you desire as well....space for this

CiCi, jeez...I can't even go there.. I hope Tez will because I am inadequate.

August 6, 2004
7:44 pm
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workinonit
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Ok tez, here goes absolutely nothing for that is which we come from.

The "I" is neither inside nor out. It simply is. Just as the overarching I is that I am.

I have found I in meditations entering trees being the flower consorting with animals and being all that is and will ever be or never has been.

The circular nature is meant to complicate and simplify.

I do not know the Buddha in this mind but I do. The force that supplies all can make it that way or not, depending on choice, perspective, concentration and focus.

Stepping out from under the ego is like shedding the skin of the body we fill. But, you ask, what fills it? HMMMMMM Can I have your thoughts on that?

I am still...workinonit

August 6, 2004
8:28 pm
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brendalee
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Wow -
this is some deep stuff. First time reading these links. All I can add to this end - is that sometimes....when I lose myself, I find myself.....while other times - it's downright imperative to have a healthy ego too! The real kicker is blending the two, know what I mean?

I have always taken my lessons from examples in nature. Animals seem to simultaneously always be on the look out for danger - but yet are able to engage in play as well. I tend to like this reality that they display and aspire to duplicate it in my own life.
Just my 2 cents.

August 9, 2004
8:05 pm
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Workinonit.

Descarte said: "I think, therefore, I am."

In this statement, Descarte presumes that there is an 'I' that is doing the thinking. This is the flaw in his argument. In proving the existence of his 'I', Descarte starts with the premises that his 'I' exists in the first place to do the 'thinking'.

Since no one can deny the existence of awareness, a more logical argument might be: "There is at least one awareness of thinking, therefore 'thinking' am."

To extrapolate from the existence of this awareness of thinking taking place into using it as proof of the existence of an independent, permanent, continuous 'I' is a quantum leap in flawed logic. This is Descarte's undoing.

The mind creates and perpetuates the illusion of the 'I' from moment to moment and has done so since time immemorium. It is the Mind's great game. Upon it is based all the power games of the world. That's great if you like suffering. But this 'I' doesn't and it seeks a way out. This 'I's mind knows that 'vulnerability' lies at the heart of the matter of dissatisfaction and suffering. That vulnerability depends on the delusion of the existence of the 'I'. Otherwise the mind finds nothing that can be vulnerable.

'Seeing' that the 'I' doesn't exist, except as both a 'mental object' and a 'label' for the body's aggregates, can pull the plug on the foundations of suffering.

Of course the bodily aggregates do exist but not as an independent, permanent entity with a self-nature. The aggregates are part of a hugh cause/effect continuum that stretches to timeless infinity.

August 9, 2004
8:32 pm
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Cici.

You said:

"Intention. Will. The energy that is conveyed between the clacking billiard balls. Does this make any sense?"

" ... The Diamond Sutra teaches that while consciousness has no absolute foundation, it cannot become pure until its intentions are perfectly pure. The clarity of pure consciousness cannot be perceived until all impure intentions have been removed from it. Omniscience connot be discovered until all remmants of delusive individuality have been eradicated. The "good light" cannot be seen until all shadows of greed, anger and ignorance have dissappeared. "Purify your intentions: these are the teachings of all buddhas." ... ... " - Hsing Yun (Ch'an Patriach).

NB *** The promise of omniscience - without a reference to any self, of course!!!!

Our intentions are so critical, yet it is because we are so 'unaware' that intentionality is often so obscured. We desperately need the "clarity of pure consciousness" - the ultimate awareness.

Most of us are on our 'emotional autopilots', with our intentions blindly serving the pleasure/pain principle of seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. Yet this fear driven intentionality is the shackle that binds us to the wheel of sharp knives of samsara.

You also said:

"So what is the result of inaction, a lack of intention? The ceasing of molecular movement? Zero degrees kelvin? "

No-mind perhaps? But perhaps compassionate intention underpinned by wisdom is the path way to No-mind and 'All seeing All'.

August 9, 2004
8:55 pm
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I wrote a poem several years ago which may or may not have bearing:

Innocence is never lost,
though it may be stolen
or borrowed
at a
very
high
cost.
For THAT which
once
was.....
...does not EVER
die -
but
finds its
OWN
way
home -
in time...
bye and bye.

By that I mean that I think that all of us are "hard-wired" sort of speak on how life on earth should be.....or else frustration and the clear sense of right and wrong demonstrated in all children....would NOT EVEN EXIST in the first place - you know?

August 10, 2004
1:38 pm
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workinonit
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Tez, you said ....But this 'I' doesn't and it seeks a way out. This 'I's mind knows that 'vulnerability' lies at the heart of the matter of dissatisfaction and suffering. That vulnerability depends on the delusion of the existence of the 'I'. Otherwise the mind finds nothing that can be vulnerable.

This I cried over that.

There was a time not too long ago when this "I" craved meditation and inner reflection where ideas and creativity abounded. Now this seems so far away. "I" feels lost.

How does one who knows and falls away return? Or does that mean there was never any knowing only a false sense of understanding?

My logical thinking understands the whole is an energy conciousness that dreams experience through us. But if there were no I present how could this experience be? Separating from the I is very difficult to do and maintain. So many distractions, interactions, mess-ups and temptations.

When this student is ready my teacher appears...

brendalee, your animal scenario is so-o true. Watching dragonflys at plat has been a childlike mindless fascination this summer. The colors are extravagant and the pattern of play and interaction causes me to smile and laugh. When I come back "I" would like to experience the dragonfly's life.

August 10, 2004
7:35 pm
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Workinonit.

You said:

"... My logical thinking understands the whole is an energy conciousness that dreams experience through us."

I would prefer to think of our delusional experiences as part of the 'All' knowing 'All' including the experiences of the deluded mind, BEYOND time. The idea of the 'All' being subject to time is non-sensical. The All is All, there can be no 'thing' else, time included.

And:

" ... But if there were no I present how could this experience be? "

As soon as the 'I' is perceived as being separate from the 'All', then awareness of suffering starts. Likewise suffering finishes with the loss of any consciousness of an 'I'. Think of the immense joy of watching a glorious sunset. There is no awareness of an 'I' who is doing the watching at such ecstatic moments. When the awareness of an 'I', who is doing the watching, infiltrates the scene the grandeur is lost.

And:

" ... Separating from the I is very difficult to do and maintain."

Whoops! There is no one to do the "separating from the I". As soon as an 'I' is perceived to be doing the separating from another 'I' then further delusion is created. Our minds persist in differentiating and demarcating - it is all part the game our fragmenting mind plays.

And:

" ... So many distractions, interactions, mess-ups and temptations."

These are mind games, the goals of which are to avoid pain (fear) and to seek pleasure(security) in it myriad forms.

"Love is letting go of fear." - Gerard Jampolsky.

That is why compassion is so important to the Buddhist. It is the anthesis of fear and the basis of a peaceful life. However wisdom in practicing compassion is essential also. Wisdom comes from insights into what truly 'is'! The Eightfold path is about the Fourth of the Four Noble Truths. It shows the way out of suffering into peace and contentment.

Why isn't the 'path' crowded? Because most people cling desperately to the belief that happiness can be grasped from the fulfilment of our 'perceived' needs when the exact opposite results from this 'clinging and grasping'. This is a big delusion that isn't easily overcome. The Eightfold Path is the way.

August 10, 2004
9:53 pm
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workinonit
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Tez,

"... My logical thinking understands the whole is an energy conciousness that dreams experience through us."

I would prefer to think of our delusional experiences as part of the 'All' knowing 'All' including the experiences of the deluded mind, BEYOND time. The idea of the 'All' being subject to time is non-sensical. The All is All, there can be no 'thing' else, time included.

Why is this different? Am "I" being difficult?

I would like to let go of the "fear"

Where do I log into the Eightfold Path?

As Stated, I am looking for the teacher. Is ythis part of an answer for me?

August 11, 2004
7:38 pm
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Workinonit.

You asked:

"Why is this different? Am "I" being difficult?"

No, you are not being difficult at all - you ask a very valid question. There are no right and wrongs in all this. Whatever words we use, they will inherently be poor, sad symbols desperately trying to represent the unrepresentable. However, here goes:

Part of your statement said:

"... the whole is an energy conciousness that dreams experience through us. ..."

This statement contains the inherent duality of an 'energy consciousness' and an 'us'. It is this duality that differentiates your statement from 'All seeing All'. In my statement 'All seeing All' there is no one doing the seeing nor any 'thing' being seen, there is just boundariless aware 'Suchness' completely without any existence of 'other than Suchness'.

Alas, this 'I' has not attained this duality free conscious awareness wherein the 'self' does not exist - not by a long chalk. If I had, I would be a living, walking 'enlightened one'; a buddha. I only aspire to this state - sigh.

You asked:

"Where do I log into the Eightfold Path?"

It is very easy for the Western mind to misinterprete the Buddha's teachings. The Western mind wants things 'by yesterday'. You may need to go to a Buddhist Center near you to get a gentle introduction to this noble way of fruitfully living your life.

Below is a quote from a reputable web site containing much information to the point of overload.

http://www.buddhanet.net/

"The noble eightfold path is the most standard description of the Buddhist way of practice. The Buddha taught it to his first disciples and to his last , as well as to the majority of those in between. It is called noble because when all of its factors come together in a fully developed form, they stand on the threshold to stream-entry, the first of the noble or transcendent attainments."

As I understand it, the "threshold to stream-entry" is the point of letting go of fear completely and becoming totally liberated from all attachments to people, places and things. Such a state is ecstatic they say. One becomes love and compassion; that is, our true nature emerges triumphant and our awareness of "All seeing All" eliminates any delusion of 'selfhood'.

The eight factors of the noble eightfold path are right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. It takes a lot of study to grasp what is meant by the word 'right' in each of the eight factors above.

You said:

"As Stated, I am looking for the teacher. Is ythis part of an answer for me?"

From my perspective, it certainly is. However, as you are well aware, "When the pupil is ready the Master will appear."

I do not consider myself even an apprentice, let alone a master. If I can be but a 'dumb signpost' pointing to the way to the 'master', then I feel very privileged indeed.

August 11, 2004
8:11 pm
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workinonit
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Tez,

Funny but you say,

As Stated, I am looking for the teacher. Is this part of an answer for me?"

From my perspective, it certainly is. However, as you are well aware, "When the pupil is ready the Master will appear."

I do not consider myself even an apprentice, let alone a master. If I can be but a 'dumb signpost' pointing to the way to the 'master', then I feel very privileged indeed.

I disagree totally because often the pupil is the teacher, correct? I should not ask, I know.

Thank you for enlightening me thank you for listening to me and thank you for bringing me to a point of remembrance so much so that I come here waiting to hear from you.

You are speaking to the inside and outside that is not I but that sees.

I am comfortable with you but not with that. I will keep on because I do but, letting it all go and being....many days will pass before this. I love my conversation with you so let us....I and I again ...keep on. soon who knows.

I will alternate teacher and student if you don't mind.

August 12, 2004
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Workinonit.

You said:

"I will alternate teacher and student if you don't mind."

In any 'two' way communication between teacher and student, can you clearly define which is which and where one leaves off and the other starts?

August 12, 2004
7:24 pm
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workinonit
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Tez, I hear you and totally agree. There is no line and the one thinks there is, is on the losing end.

Twinks, so true. But if one gets to this state does one have a preference anymore?

August 12, 2004
7:28 pm
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Twinks.

A very good question and over the last 2500 years a repeatedly asked one.

Firstly, you said:

"If a state of "All seeing All" were attained, then surely there could be no-thing or no-one to be capable of any awareness."

Yes you are correct; there certainly would be no 'thing' or no 'one' to be aware - yet the masters who have achieved this state tell us that unattached 'awareness' still exists!!!

What is more startling is that the 'masters' - not the least being the latest Buddha, Shakyamuni Buddha - tell us that, despite the mascinations of our deluded minds, in reality no 'one' or no 'thing' exists as an independent, permanent, self-natured identity even now!

Now to your question, you asked:

"Who or what would exist to be able to claim the word 'our', nevermind the awareness?"

No 'one' at all only the 'boundless All being aware of boundless All'. Gone beyond, gone beyond - all duality ceasing.

The Buddha was one asked by a follower: "Will the Buddha exist after he goes to Parinirvana?" (Parinirvana is the state of permanently 'going beyond' the cycles of re-birth, life and death and all delusions.) The Buddha answered that he, Shakyamuni Buddha "would neither exist nor not exist". To understand the profundity and the truth of such a seemingly contradictory answer, one's state of mind has to be approaching that of an 'enlightened one'; that is, a Buddha. At best I can only get the vaguest idea of what his answer means, yet intuitively, I 'know'- as opposed to believe - that it is an answer based on absolute, not relative, truth.

August 12, 2004
7:57 pm
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workinonit
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So is the concept that as we are now we can not comprehend absolute truth only relative truth?

This makes perfect sense to this "immperfect human." Oh that is redundant.

August 13, 2004
1:25 pm
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Cici
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Descarte said "Cogito, ergo sum." Which translates into a variety of things. None of which, I suspect, are completely descriptive of the concept he was trying to convey. I've also heard it translated as "I think, therefore things are" or "I think, therefore 'being' occurs" something to that effect. Both have their own little subtleties.

Sometimes I wonder. Our species as a rule peetered along at a normal evolutionary pace and about 50,000 years ago made a bizarre evolutionary leap that more than doubled our brain casing size. We had another bizarre leap about 10,000 years ago. It makes me feel like I'm listening to a conversation in another language that I barely grasp the syntax of, whose words and vocabulary I comprehend but I can't string the words together in a way that makes sense.

Like we know just enough to see what is beyond knowing. Or something like that.

Humans like to make everything stay the same. If we could we would live in stasis. The whole point of the Buddha's message was to accept and embrace the constant tidal change of time. It's funny how the Christian concept of heaven involves ego preservation, which denies the acceptance of the passage of time at its heart.

August 13, 2004
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Workinonit.

You said:

"So is the concept that as we are now we can not comprehend absolute truth only relative truth?"

Yes ... and that is because of our deluded minds. According to the Buddha's teachings, it seems that the 'common' relative truth is at the 'Form' or 'thingness' end of the 'Truth' spectrum. At the other end of the Truth Spectrum is 'emptiness' of any absolute 'thingness'. It seems that absolute truth, which encompasses the whole spectrum entirely, can only be known by a 'pure' mind. It seems that a pure mind is beyond all delusions of 'selfhood' which lies at the 'thingness', or Form end of the spectrum. Whereas complete denial of the existence of anything that we call the 'self', lies at the other extreme - at the Emptiness end - of the Truth Spectrum. So both Form and Emptiness are, according to the Buddha, only 'relative' truths, absolute truth integrating and encompassing both.

For me it seems that our sensory data conditioned mind is unable to grasp absolute truth because of our deluded mental paradigms, mentioned above, through which we try to either perceive it or conceive of it.

August 13, 2004
7:14 pm
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Cici.

You said:

"...Descarte said "Cogito, ergo sum." "

From my schoolboy latin days, I remember "Cogito" translating into 'I think'; "ergo" into 'therefore'; 'sum' into 'I am'. Much has been written about 'Descarte's error'. I think that this error underpins the basis of the automatic and unquestioned assumption that humans make about the existence of the I. If any further 'evidence' is required, then the very limited boundaries of unenlightened consciousness, would seem to confirm the boundaries of this ilusory 'I' and thus, by using further flawed logic, its existence.

As for the hunger for permanence, I totally agree. Yet change is a prerequisite for the drama of life on earth, as we know it, to unfold. However, the Buddha has said that what underpins and permeates all things is 'permanent' and therefore unchanging; that is, nirvana. I have a mate who many years ago tripped out on LSD. According to him, he saw 'what is'. In his LSD trip, he claims to have seen the neurons of his mind strutting their stuff. He said that our human activities appeared to be totally unrelated to what he 'saw'of absolute reality. He used to say that we were all pointlessly pushing a 'silver plated turd around' frantically to no avail and that we were all asleep and needed to wake up. He has since become a dedicated Tibetan Buddhist and has modified his views slightly - I think. He is still caught up in samsara though. 🙂

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