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If "God's So Good and God's So Great".......
February 11, 2007
1:38 pm
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garfield9547
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just my 2 cents

I pray daily for protection, health, strenght, wisdom etc

Some 10 years ago our business went bankrupt althought I was very active in my church then. I questioned this and realised one thing

I prayed for wisdom and God gave it to me by allowing the business to go down.

Because of what i went throught I have so much knowledge, knowledge that I never would of had if we did no go bankrupt.

I needed this experience to give me the wisdom and knowledge i have today.

This can be applied to many aspects in life. Me and my husband run a VERY succesful business (without a overdraught) and have more than we ever had. We can give advise because we have been there and will not make the same mistakes.

Also we realised that money is not everthing and if all just went well all the time our souls would of been lost. For sure. Too much money is a evil thing.

Looking back it was a blessing in disguise.

Love

Garfield

February 11, 2007
2:03 pm
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Mind you speaking up?

Of course not silly! This discussion is everybody's. You had a good response seeker, you usually do.

I'm becoming convicned that Tez and I speak to each other in different languages and neither of us can interpret the others. So we get no where.

Tez you ask :Is a logical argument beyond me? Well I thought I was pretty good at logic- I minored in it, majored in Math. But I have been in logical debates and got my butt kicked. Maybe that's what's happening here and I just don't realize it.

I don't think so though. Tez, i think you've got alot of negative emotion about Christianity and that bleeds into philosopy, for you. I think you throw stuff out that you think is logical, and it is not. It's emotional.

I guess that's okay.

I haven't seen what I consider to be a logical argument about the paradox from you , Tez. I haven't even see you address it.

You want to address the Christian God. And slam Him.

Can't you see that this is so old. Christians just tire of it, and because Christianity teaches humility and tolerance, people will just let it go.

Hostility will never change a Christian's mind or open his/her mind to your suggestions. They'll go home and pray for you Tez.

I was under the impression you wanted a discussion.

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February 11, 2007
2:06 pm
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Loralei
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That's how people learn, through taking chances and learning from their mistakes. It has nothing to do with whether you have an imaginary friend in the sky or not. If you run an honest business and deal with people fairly, you have a decent chance of succeeding. It's all a gamble.

"Too much money is an evil thing"???? Does that make starving to death and not being able to pay your bills a good thing???

February 11, 2007
2:21 pm
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"Some people do have blind faith, and it works for them.

some people have no faith. I wonder if that works for them. It doesn't seem to be working for you"

And how do you come to the conclusion that "it doesn't seem to be working for you"? You seem to be assuming an awful lot about things you know nothing about.

February 11, 2007
2:41 pm
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I wonder if any of it "worked" would any of us be here?

I know that when I took the illogic of the theology and the coda of the godman religions out of my life, it has been easier for me to push forward. It took a while, fear made me defensive, and sometimes irrational.

February 11, 2007
2:41 pm
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Loralei

I do not believe in a imaginary friend in the sky. I do not believe that God is going to come back on a cloud one day.

I was trying to use a 'natural' event in my life to explain a spiritual meaning. Its difficult to explain it, but I tried.

I believe the bible is a spiritual book that takes places in our lives today.

I believe

1 John 4 verse 2

Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ IS come in flesh is of God.

One of our priest went bankrupt 3 times now. He does not know how to do business and never learns from his mistakes.

I should not have used this example as I know myself things does not work this way. Thanks for your post.

By using this example I was trying to reflec on what happens to us spiritually.

February 11, 2007
3:18 pm
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Thanks Loralei. Not interested in fighting. wow. I think that post was to Tez. yeah. It was.

hugs

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February 11, 2007
3:20 pm
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bevdee

What is coda of the god?

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February 11, 2007
3:28 pm
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regarding the paradox:

Epicurus was a Greek, so he couldn't have been considering the God of the bible. Also, he didn't deny the existence of God/gods, and he wasn't complaining about the existence of bad things. He was merely posing the question.

Furthermore, it's a possibility that God is not interested in the good or bad of a situation, only the situation itself. Good and bad are defined in human terms.

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February 11, 2007
3:31 pm
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Epicurus was born 340 BC.

I really don't think this paradox has anything to do with Jesus or Christianity. That would be quite a trick.

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February 11, 2007
4:06 pm
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Free-

Codependencay of the godman. I jotted this out for GG one afternoon- it just kind of came to me. I will paste it here.

"Imagine if I came on one of these dating threads and announced -

Hey all, I have started seeing this guy, man I really worship him!! He is everything to me. He's a little distant, and I hardly ever see him but he says he hears me talking to him even when he's not there.

There are all these things I have to do to be worthy of his love. At least that is what he tells me.

I have to obey him. If I disobey him, there will be punishment or penance. If he really gets mad, he will send me away- like to this place called Purgatory, or Hell. He might set me on fire.

So I am working on getting myself subservient to his will, so I will be worthy of his love. But he and his son tell me I will never be entirely worthy of his love, but to strive all my life. He says he will love me anyway.

He tells me that without him in my life, I am nothing.

He thinks women are secondary to men. Basically he thinks they are put here to be a helper to men, and have kids.

He's jealous. He says I am not to put anyone else before him.

He gave me this book to read, but it's long and kind of unclear, and it is hard to get the gist of what the guy wants to say. I've asked other people what they think of it, but no one can seem to agree on anything in that book.

I have to give him my money, but he says it will come back to me, eventually. It's a tenth of my earnings, do you think that is enough to give him? I'm supposed to donate my time to charities and stuff, and give all the credit to him.

He's got this son that never got married and hangs out with a dozen guys all the time. I'm not sure what they do, but they get in trouble with the authorities sometimes. He wants me to follow his son's teachings. He thinks his kid is some sort of martyr.

I can never question him.

I only hope someday I can be worthy of his love - if I do, he says I will get to go with him to this great place called Heaven. I hope there is a jacuzzi and a masseuse."

Talk to ya later -

Bevdee

February 11, 2007
4:11 pm
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free

On the 11-Feb-07 you said:

"I was under the impression you wanted a discussion."

The title of this thread is:

"If "God's So Good and God's So Great"......."

The theme was set by TruthBtold when in the initial post on 1-Feb-07 he/she said:

"why is it that a fucking child molester won millions recently in the Florida fucking lottery?

"GOD" is obviously NOT of the logic of us "lowly" neo-cortix inhabitiants he blew his own life into..............

If I got a rib that he thinks he gave to us all - I say - take it fucking back!!!!!! I don't want any part of this crap!!!!!!!"

Then Loralei focussed us all back onto the nitty gritty of the thread theme on the 4-Feb-07 when he/she wrote:

"Epicurean Paradox

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.....em_of_evil

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" (Epicurus, as quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief)"

So far I have offered the argument that the existence of evil and the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, unconditionally loving God are mutually exclusive. I have given an argument for this mutual exclusivity in above posts that has so far remained unrefutted.

Since evil obviously exists and there is no evidence whatsoever that God exists at all then God of the B.C.D persuasion in all probability doesn't exist.

You can throw in all the red herrings you like. It won't convince any rational being of the veracity of your blind faith based beliefs in the existence of a God who is omnipotent and omniscient and unconditionally loving. Sorry about that.

Perhaps you might like to try again -only this time without those tiny red fish.

February 11, 2007
5:15 pm
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okay Tez.

oh-kay.

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February 11, 2007
5:27 pm
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What's the tiny red fish herring thingy all about?

February 11, 2007
5:48 pm
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Dissecting the Epicurean Paradox:

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot;"

Either God is not omnipotent,

" or he can, but does not want to. ..."

or God wants evil to exist,

"If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent."

If God wants to abolish evil but cannot then he is NOT Omnipotent

"If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... "

If God is omnipotent but knowingly permits evil to exist then God is evil.

"If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?""

if God is omnipotent and knows of the existence of evil and wants to abolish it then why doesn't he abolish it?

Now Seeker says:

"Evil exists in this world because it is not God's intent to keep all evil out of the world by himself. It is God's intent for us to keep evil out, if we so choose to do so. It is also God's intent to try us and test us in this life, and part of this entails suffering from evil choices that others make.

We're here to learn how to become gods and goddesses. We can't do that unless we have the option to do evil as well as good. If God prevented us from doing evil, it would frustrate his higher purpose of giving us the freedom to choose for ourselves, and to enjoy or suffer the consequences of our choices."

So here we have Seeker's God who is both creator and assessor of his creation of good and evil.

So Seeker's God creates evil in the world by virtue of having created beings with the propensity for doing evil. How He did this was by creating survival driven 'food chains' of many kinds wherein predators and predated upon of necessity have to play out both rolls at different times for the God created process of evil to continue. In simple terms God created fear, the very anthesis of love in order that species might fight to survive and thus suffer and struggle throughout their whole lives. For what? A pie-in-the-sky reward from a very conditionally loving God? This is am image of a very evil God indeed!!

I've heard it said many times that love cannot exist without fear. Then I've heard it said that God is love. But God supposedly existed before the world did. If love cannot exist without fear then God must also be fearful! Is that why He created Satan prior to creating the world? Or is Satan the other face of Seeker's God?

Either this statement that love cannot exist without fear or that God is love, is a non-sense. One or the other is non-sense. Which?

Now having cruelly pitted sentient being against sentient being, "It is also God's intent to try us and test us in this life, and part of this entails suffering from evil choices that others make." - Seeker's words, not mine.

This doesn't sound like an unconditionally loving God to me.

Seeker offers his 'logic' underpinning his beliefs about his God's purpose in creating evil as follows:

"We're here to learn how to become gods and goddesses. We can't do that unless we have the option to do evil as well as good."

Seeker's omnipotent God could well have created us as Gods and Goddesses straight off the cuff. But no, his God created a predatory world, and threw sentient beings into this world to suffer. One priviledged species of these sentient beings were created with a neocortex that gave them a predatory advantage over the lesser suffering species. Now this species, being far from omnipotent, and omniscient were nonetheless required to learn how to become Gods and Goddesses and to choose other than their own survival and wellbeing. To help them Seeker's God allowed many contradictory scriptures to be written by primitive tribes. This God of Seekers only gave divine inspiration to the one group of writers who wrote the Judaic scriptures that became the greatest part by volume of the Bible. God later inspired New Testament writers to write the testament of the teachings of his son. However Seeker's God also allowed the Emperor of Rome to severely truncate what was going into His final collection in the minor part by volume of His divinely inspired work called the Bible.

Yet still Seeker's God allowed all this vast array of false curriculum documents to be written to confuse his apprentice Gods and Goddesses.

Now Seeker's God said "choose and follow blindly one of the many scriptures - but choose the wrong one and fail my test and she's eternity in the fire and brimstone of hell for you. Pass and you can be my sycophant in heaven for ever and a day".

Now this God of Seeker's set a pass mark of say 50.00000000000000000% for getting our degree in Godhood.

Along comes Seeker who after his very best efforts gets 49.99999999999999%. He fails by 0.000000000000001%. Now upon hearing Seeker's pleas for clemency, Seeker's unconditionally loving God lets him through into purgatory to burn off that 0.000000000000001% carbuncle. Then she's off to paradise for Seeker. Along comes OMW who not quite making Seeker's standard fails by 0.000000000000002% percentage points. So OMW argues her case with Seeker's God that since Seeker was only under the bar by 0.000000000000001% and God lowered the pass mark to 49.99999999999999% for Seeker then surely lowering the bar by the same amount again for OMW was only fair. So for all the millions of humans that ever existed this process of bartering and gaining concessions from this unconditionally loving God of Seekers continues in incremental steps of 0.000000000000001%. At last Tez comes along at the very bottom of the class with a score of 0.000000000000001%. By now the bar has been lowered incrementally through His infinite mercy to 0.000000000000002%. Tez by using the tried and true argument persuades to lower the bar yet again, therein just sneaking through.

So now after much suffering and bartering with this unconditionally loving God of Seeker's every human being is in heaven. Stiff shit for the lesser animal species. They were only made by Seeker's God for Humans to munch on after they have munched on each other.

Why would Seeker's God choose to create the predatory hell that exists on earth just to play the part or the Divine Assessor when he could instantly have created all the Gods and Goddesses that he wanted without the need for any predatory evil of any kind? In fact the earth need never to have existed at all.

Seeker offers this explanation:

"If God prevented us from doing evil, it would frustrate his higher purpose of giving us the freedom to choose for ourselves, and to enjoy or suffer the consequences of our choices."

Who in his right mind would not choose consequences that were enjoyable and not avoid consequences that resulted in suffering?

Obviously some of us, through not having Seeker's particular insights into the mind of God, do make bad choices that lead to suffering. Some of us, the majority I suspect, continue to do this throughout our whole life. So Seeker's God knowing this in advance does nothing to correct His students and put them on the right track? Even God's stalwart evangelists have extramarital affairs, commit vile acts of paedophilia - you name it! Strange God this, certainly not a loving one at all. I don't see many graduating into Godhood - especially when I see the theists' responses to worldly affairs.

Strange fruit doth grow on the theists' tree.

February 11, 2007
6:03 pm
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On the 11-Feb-07 you said:

"What's the tiny red fish herring thingy all about?"

In relation to a debate, you don't know what a 'Red Herring' is?

February 11, 2007
6:39 pm
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Loralei
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Tez, that was brilliant!

I started writing a long-winded spiel asking some obvious questions but decided that I was just wasting my time. Only the already non-believers would have appreciated it. The believers would have breezed past it because there is no way they could rationalize the things their god has done. And most would become angry with ME because I would be pointing out all the bad things their perfect god did that were very evil indeed. Since it's really hard to defend genocide, murder by stoning, drowning the world or plagues, believers tend to become very defensive and angry (probably because I hit a nerve). Or they run and hide behind Jesus since he has a better track record than his god. But since the book of revelations is in the new testament, it doesn't sound like Jesus is going to be all that loving and forgiving either. But the clergy just likes to spoonfeed the sugar to keep the donations coming in.

February 11, 2007
9:27 pm
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What's it all about Tez? I don't see the correlation.

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February 11, 2007
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The funniest thing is that a Christian isnt able to see that they're NO different than a Muslim.

Its the same stuff:

1) Ludicrous claim of somoene claiming to be a prophet oof God (or God himself, whatever) without ANY. Serious claims require SERIOUS proof. Is that hard to understand?

2) Happened long time ago.

3) Nothing really "miraculous" in their holy books or anything that proves that it couldnt be an invention of man.

4) Defects in the holy books or in the Holy characters which everyone else makes fun of.

Then Christians feel smug, thinking they're better than Muslims and vice versa.

February 11, 2007
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And I too used to believe that I was right and they wrong.

What does it take to be able to criticize one's own faith?

Interesting, huh?

February 12, 2007
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But now you are smug and feel like you are better than Muslims and Christians.

February 12, 2007
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I know this is off topic- but why such anger at and about a God you don't think exists?

and,

why such anger at those who think He does?

Where does this come from?

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February 12, 2007
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There isn't any SERIOUS proof that I KNOW of, that makes me feel in any way confident of God's existence. Time and time again, I have asked for some... but not to be. A couple of basic questions that have people floundering are..."How do you KNOW that?" "How can you/I believe in something that can not even be proven to exist?" Then when those questions have run their usual course, the question comes down to... "What would I do differntly in my life if I did believe in God?" Or, for those who already do believe... "What would you do diffently if you didn't believe in God?"

February 12, 2007
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I am not a goddess. Seeker..could you clarify this more?

TEZ:
You have a good heart. I know you have done alot of work on yourself, hard work at that. And I know you have been through alot. And I know you have done and seen much.

Me...I have a good heart, I have done alot of work on myself and still have more to do, but I do it by learning who God is, the more I understand about Him, the better person I will be for myself but mostly for others. He is my hero, my role model. I have been through alot, and I have seen and seen much in regard to people and families hurting, and healing.

I beleive that when I die I will go to heaven. I have no doubt.

Most people are the same, we all have the same basic needs, some the same basic problems. I am at a loss as to how to help my alcoholic son. He does not care about his life. He is a roller coaster and he is the driver. He is also a bron-again Christian, and for his 25 years he has seen and done alot. He will go to heaven when he dies. I hope that he lives a long good life.

So we are all the same. However believers claim to know they are going to heaven. The price was paid. So maybe it isn't really a question of God being omnicient, etc....maybe it is just belief.

If you remember, I grew up 'in church'. TO this day I will never go to a religious church. SOme do not understand that, as to some, all churches are religious. But I know God and i see God when I enter a church where he is present. How would I know this? Certainly not from my upbringing. The great thing about God is that I didn't have to be perfect.

I knew my life was different when I was so confused about religion. I went to bed one night and prayed for God to show me the truth. I slept. IT was a simple prayer. No mind trips or mind games. When I awoke the next morning, I felt as if my whole world and me had turned into something brand new. I had never felt so clean and new and peaceful in my whole life. That high lasted 2 weeks, I began to CRAVE to know the Bible, and He has been with me ever since.

I don't understand completely why people suffer. I know of an athiest family who lost their son in an accident, and they openly profess that "We are athiests since our son was killed". That death would be so much easier to endure, if they knew God was real. And no one knows for the 2 hours he was alone in that car before rescue workers found him, what he had decided about his belief in God. God is not evil, he loves. But there are spiritual realms, and spiritual warfare, and not all are angels, there are many demons out there....and I do beleive in satan, and i do believe that God will not stop an alcoholic from drinking unless that alcoholic has believers praying for him. He has free will. Maybe someone has prayed for you in your past as well.

My son Chris, in the last month, has lost his vehicle, therefore his transportation, it is a b*t** for him to get to work and get home...someone clipped him in an intersection and totaled his Explorer. He was sober, thank goodness. Other things have happened to him, and last night he left his IPOD in his jeans, and washed it...that really bothered him, and he is in big-time victim mode, depressed and up and down suicidal and will not get help. But I'll be damned if evil is going to win with him. I talk to God about him, and I talk to satan about him...I believe in evil. But I also beleive that with so many people praying for him, that he'll come through....IF he chooses too...so I pray he chooses too. So far everything I have prayed has come to pass....still working on the "choose to" part...but he does not have a vehicle now to get to the bar so he doesn't go. I believe, God let that happen. I believe that God will do anything to accomplish his purpose in someone, and i beleive he used an 18 yr old girl who was speeding and not looking where she was going to ram into Chris a few weeks ago. It unfortunate that he has to take cabs to work (expensive)...but he isn't in the bars. But he isn't handling all of this very well.

LA Rosa...I KNOW God is real, because I believe he is who he says he is. And I have seen him change too many lives, including my own. And he talks to me. And it is a spiritual thing...it is a knowing...for example, i don't know garfield, and she does not know me...but we both know God in a personal way, and we both believe the same things...not because we have studied it, but because we are both believers/saved. It is just a knowing.

February 12, 2007
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guest...God created light. 🙂

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