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If "God's So Good and God's So Great".......
February 9, 2007
2:33 pm
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free,
All things I assume have an opposite. What then would be the opposite of Evil? Then, who created evil, or did it just pop up one day out of the blue? And to what characteristics would one have to have to exhibit evil? And where did these promptings originate? Who was the first 'evil' person, and who termed this person evil? It's interesting. For me of course it all goes back to God.
(preach, preach 🙂

February 9, 2007
2:58 pm
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garfield9547
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Genesis 3 verse 1

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made."

February 9, 2007
3:47 pm
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Free.

On the 8-Feb-07 you wrote:

" ... assigning letters for Boolean logic sake might be showy, even valid (I don't think so, though) ... "

You started with the boolean algebra not I. Look back and you can easily verify that.

Your post of 7-Feb-07 started with:

"Tez

The premise assumed to be true is that there is evil in the world, for logic sake let's call evil H.

the logic reads like this:

Assume H exists. Then: (A and B) or (not B and not A) If (A and B) then C. If (not B and not A) then g. If ( not B and A) then why does there exist H? (evil)"

You appear to me to have been hoisted on your own petard.

Now that you have been, in the interests of conciseness, I'll continue to use that representation.

My straight forward argument is:

Not Z = Not(A.B.C.D) which means:

Because not everything that happens to every sentient being in the world throughout all of time is in their best interests then no God exists who is omnipotent and omniscient and unconditionally loving.

Because not everything that happens to every sentient being in the world throughout all of time is in every single being's best interests suffering exists.

That is, Not Z = H

Therefore:

H = Not(A.B.C.D)

This means:

Since there exists suffering in the world then no God can exist who is omnipotent and omniscient and unconditionally loving.

I rest my case.

February 9, 2007
4:22 pm
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I think garfield hit the nail on the head.
____________________________________

I feel like cursing. Is this really so important and is it really such a point of contention? Is it possible to surround yourself with people who are real and true in what they believe? I don't beleive there is a human being in existence who can explain God or explain away God. One reason is that 'faith' is part of explaining him...believing in what you hope for but cannot see...etc. Hebrews chapter 12. There are real people out there who are really believers and followers and they are not insane. This is a good conversation, and maybe I should stay out of it...but there are alot of people in the world who would actually die for their faith...and I am not talking about Muslim/Islam. I think I spak out on this because I get too emotionally involved..I care too much...then open my mouth, and end up saying the same thing over and over.....is consistency, unwavering faith, no matter what is said...does that count for anything, ever? Am not looing for approval or validation here, do not need that...but a belief in God, and a successful life in that, and joy despite hardships...it works, and it works consistently. preach, preach.

February 9, 2007
6:24 pm
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Once again, Tez you miss the point.

We were talking about the paradox and you are talking about all kinds of other stuff.

You asked for a logical argument concerning the paradox. I went to Boolean logic with THE PARADOX to see if a conclusion could be drawn.

And you grab the symbolism (obnoxiously rude to do that) and make your own so called argument and discussion about the Christian God and their loving stuff. You use Tezonian logic and act intellectually superior. The original paradox has a Boolean representation that is simple, easy to see, and easy to follow. Look at what you did Tez. Honestly, you don't even sound as if you know a thing about Boolean logic or any type of logic for that matter, you just sound like you're using a Thesaurus when you type. You even blew mutually exclusive, a most elementary concept. so let's just get real here.

then you say "I rest my case".

You haven't even MADE a case. You're off in hostile-land about christianity.

I guess I just got sucked in. I thought the paradox was interesting. You used my interest in philosophy to go on some emotional vomiting spree about Jesus.

Whatever.

I'm sorry you feel that way about Him. He's actually pretty cool.

free

February 9, 2007
6:49 pm
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Here's the paradox :

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" (Epicurus, as quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief)"

And then here's your Boolean representation of it.

"Not Z = Not(A.B.C.D)

Not Z = H

Therefore:

H = Not(A.B.C.D)"

My algebra 1 kids can use substitution to show that this argument is valid.

But like I pointed out, it has nothing to do with the paradox. It's all stuff you made up, and I don't believe any of it.

You challenge anybody to find flaws in the following Tezonian logical statement:

"Your momma dog-faced to the banana patch therefore the mushroom produced a Bernoulli wind tunnel and ended up on the roof where radioactive waves initiated the first stage of internal molecular DNA decomposition. Consequently, God cannot exist as defined herein."

That's definitely a challenge Tez.

anybody?

free

February 9, 2007
7:12 pm
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omw

You ask interesting questions. it seems clear that everything DOES have an opposite, but does that mean that things are evil? To me evil means lacking all goodness. Evil has not a smidgen of goodness.

Tez, for example.

Just kidding!!!!!!!!!!

ha ha.

So, does evil even really exist? Or is good and evil intertwined and inseparable?

free

February 10, 2007
8:06 am
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garfield9547
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on my way

It is difficult to get involved and also HIGHLY emotional for me.

"is consistency, unwavering faith, no matter what is said...does that count for anything, ever? Am not looing for approval or validation here, do not need that...but a belief in God, and a successful life in that, and joy despite hardships...it works, and it works consistently. preach, preach. "

Consistent, unwavering faith does count allot for everything in your life (like me), but not for someone elses life.

You reap what you sow.

Love

Garfield

February 10, 2007
8:12 am
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garfield9547
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Free I had to laugh at your last post.

That was really funny

on my way

For me faith is a deed. I think the verse you revered to is this one

Heb 11:1
11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
KJV

February 10, 2007
4:47 pm
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free...

Well, God is not evil then...God is good. So that leaves a separate creator of evil....

garfield...
Yes, that is the verse, thank you. 🙂

February 10, 2007
5:35 pm
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truthBtold
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I dunno about all of you. Although I am amazed at all the response to my original thread.

I guess that I just don't believe in god anymore.

At least, not the kind that has his eye on the sparrow and stuff.

I have finally, through great contemplation and tribulation and loss of naivetee and innocence - just pretty much figure that life is what it is.

There is no "Supreme Being" keeping "tabs" or "count" of all the "good stuff" and all of the "bad stuff" that happens and will - in the end - give direction as to heaven or hell...and my non-innocent, non-naive heart has finally comes to terms with this.

Though, I do believe in "energy."

Positive energy and "spirit guides" which are there to guide us for the asking and whom are more than willing to help us reach our highest "potential" - if only we can just see fit to get out of own way.

That's my take on it anyway.

Peace.

February 10, 2007
5:51 pm
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tbt...as a believer in God...it is funny that i agree with you. but the reason i agree with you, and the part of your post that i do agree with? is the part about a supremem Being keeping tabs or count all the good stuff and the bad....This is where people get so confused and wrong about who God is though....he isn't like this and does not do this. He doesn't keep tabs, or marks, or give out gold stars or black marks. He is just there ...loving, and encouraging and is not someone standing over everyone with a yardstick...does not require confession as the Catholic religion stigma....He is different than most people know him to be. There are a lot of misconceptions. It is not a religion with rules and regulations, it is a relationship. There is a website...notreligion.com that specifically gets away from all of that religious muck. I still have bad memories of 'CHURCH" from a child...to this day I can't stand the dogma of 'serving' in a church....but I like the idea of serving in a church if it will help to make someone's else's life better. I grew up with crap too...only now I am not religious, I have apersonal relationship.

Sorry...I just have to state this stuff once in awhile. And I know that not everyone feels or thinks the same way, nor do I want to shove anything down anyone else's throat...but too many people think it is all about rules, sin and church...and it isn't..:)

February 10, 2007
6:03 pm
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truthBtold
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on my way,

well, hell- no one really knows for sure about all of this stuff anyway.

I dismissed the notion of "god" as a GIGANTIC male figure....you know - the "big guy" in the clouds and stuff.....

But, like I said before - I believe in energy. I think that this is where science and religion will finally converge, hopefully - some day soon!!!!

Sits right in my guts, anyway.

February 10, 2007
6:05 pm
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ok, 🙂 science and religion will someday converge...i hope i am here to see it! i beleive in energy, find it fascinating!!!

February 10, 2007
6:38 pm
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What do you or people even MEAN by saying Science and religion will converge? This is psycho babble used by believers to somehow try to say that religion will make sense one day and everyone will accept it as fact. Thats what it is.

Science says light travels at the speed of 3 x 10^8 miles/sec (or whatever it is). It says gravity is 9.8 m/sec.

Religion says Jesus rose from the dead. Or it says that Mohammed who had sex with 9 year old Aisha was really a prophet of God.

How do religion and science 'converge' then? Um, nah. It doesnt make any sense at all to say this.

February 10, 2007
6:39 pm
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Oh yea, that was 3 x 10^8 meters/sec, I remember now.

February 10, 2007
6:51 pm
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free

On the 9-Feb-07 you wrote:

"Here's the paradox :

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" (Epicurus, as quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief)" "

I haven't as yet seen a rational, logical rebuttal of the above argument from you.

Is a logical, rational rebuttal beyond you?

Or is it that you choose to ignore the paradox in your quest to maintain your own blind faith?

Of course if God who is B.C.D doesn't exist then there is no paradox to solve.

Perhaps the small fact that a God who is omniscient(C), omnipotent(B) and unconditionally loving(D) - all the attributes that are absolutely necessary prerequisites for the very existence of the Epicurian Paradox above - doesn't exist, is the very reason the paradox has remained unsolved over the millenia.

I'm categorically saying that if God existed who is omniscient(C), omnipotent(B) and unconditionally loving(D), then evil/suffering(H)/(everything not being in our best interests(Not Z)), call it what you will, would not exist either. Since evil/suffering/(everything not being in our best interests) so obviously does exist therefore God doesn't.

Having given mine several times, I am eagerly awaiting your solution to the Epicurian paradox - minus your 'emotional investments' preferably.

February 10, 2007
7:01 pm
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"ENERGY" in and of itself will somehow lead itself to BOTH disciplines - I feel.

Let's just have a "wait and see" attitude....shall we??????

February 10, 2007
7:33 pm
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WD, "You?re Thor? I can barely walk!"

hah - you eked a cackle out of ol' kroiks :o)

If I were engaged in this logical debate, I might be irritated at your jesterish ways.... but as a casual passerby, just had to let you know you made me laugh!

Hope to return the favour sometime... komikal kroiks

February 10, 2007
9:05 pm
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Hi Kroiks,

I was afraid that joke would be wasted.

February 10, 2007
9:31 pm
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well, you see, sometimes you just have to throw those jokes out there and hope some appreciative soul will see them, even if you never hear them laugh or it never gets reported back to you. Ee, it's an act of faith, like, see?

February 11, 2007
12:59 am
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Loralei
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I just have a hard time understanding how anyone can call god "good" and "loving" after reading about all the horrible things he supposedly did in the old testament. And for those who say Jesus is god, then who the hell was Jesus talking to all the time? Did he kill off the old god who "created the world"? How can there be an old god followed by a new god and yet say it's one in the same? I guess that's why so much blind faith is required because none of it makes any sense whatsoever. That's why ALL religions want to get you while you're young while it's still easy to brainwash you and instill in you how weak you are and lacking in faith if you question anything. It's all smoke and mirrors.

February 11, 2007
1:47 am
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Tez trying to have a discussion with you reminds me of discussions with my ex. There's like no communication or something. You just-

spew stuff.

I don't know what you are looking for as far as a logical rebuttal. I did analyze the paradox and conclude, I believe correctly, that a conclusion cannot be logically drawn. But you'd have to actually read my posts to know that. It's up there.

I thought the paradox was interesting. No need to attack my faith or lack of faith- you know little of that as I haven't shared.

Some people do have blind faith, and it works for them.

some people have no faith. I wonder if that works for them. It doesn't seem to be working for you.

Peace baby

free

February 11, 2007
12:44 pm
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Tez,

{ "Here's the paradox :

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" (Epicurus, as quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief)" "

I haven't as yet seen a rational, logical rebuttal of the above argument from you. }

I have a logical rebuttal to this, if you don't mind me speaking up, free.

Evil exists in this world because it is not God's intent to keep all evil out of the world by himself. It is God's intent for us to keep evil out, if we so choose to do so. It is also God's intent to try us and test us in this life, and part of this entails suffering from evil choices that others make.

We're here to learn how to become gods and goddesses. We can't do that unless we have the option to do evil as well as good. If God prevented us from doing evil, it would frustrate his higher purpose of giving us the freedom to choose for ourselves, and to enjoy or suffer the consequences of our choices.

February 11, 2007
1:08 pm
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Seeker

"It is God's intent for us to keep evil out, if we so choose to do so. It is also God's intent to try us and test us in this life, and part of this entails suffering from evil choices that others make."

Why?

If I cause suffering to another human being, could I then justify my actions by using the logic you offer? That I was helping a god?

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