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If "God's So Good and God's So Great".......
February 5, 2007
12:37 am
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Loralei
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"Oh, that one's easy.

Dumb old Epicurean paradox."

What kind of a response is that?

February 5, 2007
12:43 am
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"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" (Epicurus, as quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief)

This paradox assumes the premises (the if part) are true.

But.

Humans must have comparisons. There must be suffering in order for us to know "not" suffering. There must be evil in order for us to know good and to seek it out. If we were born into utopia, we'd never know it.

So.

NOT abolishing evil does not make God wicked or impotent.

It makes Him wise.

free

February 5, 2007
1:24 am
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"There must be suffering in order for us to know "not" suffering. There must be evil in order for us to know good and to seek it out. If we were born into utopia, we'd never know it."

That's like saying I need to hit my finger with a hammer so I can appreciate the lack of pain when I stop.

You're making excuses for god again. If he is all powerful, why doesn't he announce his presence to everyone on the planet? Then everyone would believe in him and worship him, just like he wants. If he is all powerful, why does he let horrible things happen to innocent children and good people? If a tornado hits your neighbor's house and kills them all, yet your house is safe, you give thanks to god for saving you. Why didn't he save your neighbors? Why don't you blame him for sending the tornado there? You don't think the neighbors were praying hard enough? What good does prayer do when it can't even protect you? Why is he thanked for everything good yet never blamed for all the bad? If he is all powerful, then he is doing it all. If that's god's will, as you all say, then who wants a god like that? With the exception of a small percentage of deranged wackos, humans are far more humane than god.

There is no proof whatsoever that god exists. And no, I can't prove there isn't a god anymore than you can prove that there isn't a teapot orbiting in space. Just because I "believe" there is a teapot out there doesn't make it exist. (I am referring to Richard Dawkin's "Teapot Atheist" story.)

I was raised in a religious household and attended church until I was 17. I used to "believe" even though it never made any logical sense to me. That's before I started studying the whole bible, not just the handpicked scriptures that preachers like to select for us. You'd have to close your mind to reason, logic, and common sense to swallow even a fraction of it. The god of the bible was cruel, jealous, a murderer, vindictive. Where's the love???

I know, you'll all say "Jesus". That's who you worship, not god. Right? BTW, Jesus didn't write the 10 commandments. Jesus was born way after "genesis". Just pick and choose which parts you want to belive and quote, and pretend the rest doesn't exist.

February 5, 2007
3:18 am
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Free.

On the 5-Feb-07 you re-quoted Epicurus

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" (Epicurus, as quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief)"

Then you added:

"This paradox assumes the premises (the if part) are true. "

The first premise that is highly disputable is that there is a God who exists who has three characteristics:

1. Omnipotence.

2. Omniscience.

3. Is unconditionally loving, all good and all perfect.

Which of these three characteristics of the Christian God do you contest?

If however you claim that ALL are true then the first premise of the Epicurus quote that "Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to" must be true also. If characteristic 3. above is true and only if it is true, then everything that happens on this earth must be in every living things' best interests. The only other alternative is that Characteristic 3. is not true and God "can, but does not want to" change that which happens that is not in our best interests and therefore "he is wicked."

Now we are left with explaining how all the horrors that happened in Auschwitz, Cambodia, and Rwanda, in the Sudan, and a zillion other places throughout history are in the victims' best interests!

You offered this reason why suffering could be in our best interests, when you said:

"Humans must have comparisons. There must be suffering in order for us to know "not" suffering."

This reasoning is not credible. If, as I brutally rape a 10 year old girl as is currently happening in the Sudan, I whisper in her ear that the reason I am raping her is so that she will know how good it will feel later on when she is not being brutally raped, then do you think that either any court of justice in the world or my young victim herself will think my pathetic, sick excuse for my actions are even remotely credible or rational? The girl would be terribly emotionally and psychologically scarred and would live in fear of men and sex for the rest of her one and only Christian life. How can that be in her best interests???

Either "there is no God" - the exact words a Jewish Rabbi screamed to the heavens when he saw a truck load of naked pubescent girls being taken screaming to their horrific deaths by gassing in Auschwitz - or that God "is wicked" and a sadistic monster. If we are your God in disguise wanting to experience all the horrors on this earth since time immemorial then your God is a very sick masochist and is in very desperate need of help.

As a red hot Christian, I tried desperately to justify these terrible contradictions to no avail. I sort help from 'gun' Doctors of Divinity who were also academic philosophers lecturing at university. I was horrified by the compartmentalization of their psyches into both a highly rational part and highly irrational emotionally driven part that lacked any credence whatsoever. This separation was somehow reconciled irrationally in their head under the guise of 'faith'. I finally saw how deluded they all were.

Dr. Goebels in Nazi Germany was a genius. Yet he bastardized his intellect to such an extent that he believed all the Nazi propaganda to the extent that he killed his wife and whole family children and all before committing suicide when his Valhalla on earth didn't materialize.

I won't blindly swallow any irrational party line offered by any religion, theistic or otherwise. I want to see rational answers to fundamental questions otherwise I will tell proselytizers exactly what I think about their irrational fairy stories - with respect of course. 🙂

If their faith is shaken then I have done them a favor in pointing out the flaws and holes. They can either fix the holes or seek another belief. Either way they are in front. Of course if they choose to ignore me as they often do,then the loss is entirely theirs not mine.

February 5, 2007
3:32 am
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LA Rosa
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Christians marauding across the globe have killed 100 times more people than cancer. So why don't we have scientists working on that problem??

February 5, 2007
5:02 am
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Hi Loralei,

"Dumb old Epicurean paradox."

"What kind of a response is that?"

I suppose you could call it a hastily improvised multi-level multi punch line in-joke that I devised for especially Tez.

I forgot other people were watching.

Now that I think of it, it would be interesting for me and Tez to make certain aspects of our relationship more explicit. But I have enjoyed the sheer winging-it and dead-reckoning aspect.

Shoot, now I'm veering wildly and enthusiastically off topic onto another topic.

Oh heck, I'll just rein in my ponies, give the epicurean paradox its due and render unto Tez that which is rightfully Tez's elsewhere.

February 5, 2007
5:20 am
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Tez,

The paradox you have introduced for our consideration is deep and wide. I love it. I think you know I am the kind of guy who would love it.

I have an intuition about you Tez. This particular round of the Epicurean Paradox feels a bit more pointed than previous rounds. I think I am detecting Ouch Waves from you. To me, that means I need to hear and respond to you at several levels--the level of your logic, for sure, but also at the ouch level.

So let me know if you want me, particularly to take a crack at the E. Paradox from a philosphical and logical level. I think you already know where I'm going with it anyway. Maybe that challenge was not for WD?

I am actually less curious about the philosophy--more interesting is: What is going on with your heart here, Tez?

It is unlike you to put much energy into criticism of any religious form, Tez. Makes me wonder: Is this strand just a piece of philosophy you have been eager to kick around anyway?

Or?

Is you just hurting and there is something you want or need to talk about?

---Your admiring friend,

WD

February 5, 2007
3:44 pm
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on my way
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This is how I see God, the world, and when bad things happen. And I know that some people have been through so much pain that it is difficult to believe in God at all:

For all of you who have children, picture this:

If Missy is walking next to me and she stumbles and falls, I will be there to pick her up and help her. If she pushes me away and wants to do it herself, I will let her.

If Missy cut her knee and it is bleeding, I will try to stop the bleeding and heal her if I can.

It isn't my fault that she fell or got hurt, but I am always with her and she knows that I will always be there for her and help her, and love her if she asks me too.

This is God. In this world, we do alot of our own stumbling and falling. After awhile we look pretty bloody, bruised, and we hurt. But we can't blame anyone but ourselves. If you don't ask for help, you get nothing. Yes, God knows all, but he also does not want us to be puppets so we have free will.

There is heaven waiting for those who want it. There is a God who loves you waiting and walking beside you, when you decide you want him and ask.

I care for everyone on this site, but I get so angry and really have to work hard sometimes not to blast some for demeaning someone who is my friend..that is JC. I know not everyone thinks the same.

February 5, 2007
4:07 pm
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Worried_Dad

On the 5-Feb-07 you said:

This particular round of the Epicurean Paradox feels a bit more pointed than previous rounds. I think I am detecting Ouch Waves from you. ...

Is you just hurting and there is something you want or need to talk about?"

Me hurting? Nuh! If I feel hurt I go for a decent dose of walking meditation and like a bloodhound seek out the burr under my saddle at the deepest depth of my psyche that I can reach. No amount of talking with others seems to me to better that.

Do Christians get up my nose from time to time? They sure do - just as those who inflict psychological and physical torture on children for other reasons.

If you cannot see how the Christian religion has fucked up so many lives and want my help to show you how I will oblige you. It is a old dry gully I crossed many years ago. In revisiting it, I see no benefit to me but perhaps some benefit to others. That's up to you.

However you are welcome to challenge my last post to Free and to highlight the flaw(s) in my logic if any.

The 'givens', of course, are highly flawed and highly debatable - they are Christian givens and thus are not of my making.

February 5, 2007
4:12 pm
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LA Rosa

On the 5-Feb-07 you said:

"Christians marauding across the globe have killed 100 times more people than cancer. So why don't we have scientists working on that problem??"

Is it perhaps because Christians control the purse strings that enable the scientists?

February 5, 2007
4:15 pm
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On my way.

You are a very good and nice person.

Luv yuh! I'm sure your friend, JC, loves you too.

February 5, 2007
5:15 pm
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Hi OMW, did you mean to refer to something I said? In any cayse: I'm sorry, but JC said that I'll burn in Hellfire becuase I refuse to be a Christian. Thats also demeaning to me. What do you think about that?

What if I said that JC will burn in Hellfire?

See how much that hurts you? Multiply that by 10 and thats the hurt I feel when I see JC saying that I'll burn in Hellfire.

February 5, 2007
5:16 pm
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plz,

{Seek - I thought we already got cyber married once in Vegas? And if not, who the heck do these cyber kids belong to? lol}

I thought that marriage was annulled. But about the cyberkids ... well, I guess we HAVE to get cybermarried, don't we? How do we unannul the marriage? :O)

February 5, 2007
5:32 pm
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seek and plz. if you do get cyber marriage be sure to tellus, I'll send you a cyber gift.

February 5, 2007
6:14 pm
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Tez

You missed the point.

free

February 5, 2007
6:18 pm
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Hey Tez, you know me.

The reason you seemed ouchy was because I recall you doing a fair bit of argument here in defense of the concept of spirit.

Some people believe that belief in consciousness beyond the human brain or life beyond this life is in and of itself a contagious form of mental illness, an evil disease that has given rise to uncountable horrors--the Christian religion being just one of those horrors.

Personally, I'm an esoteric mystic type.

Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Shamanism, Wicca, Agnosticism and Atheism all look pretty much alike to me.

February 5, 2007
6:23 pm
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Yeaa. Buddha had also sex with a nine year old and ordered violence, such as his orders to kill anyone who left Buddhism.

You're right, they're all the same.

No wait, that was Mohammed.

What an I, good god.

February 5, 2007
6:44 pm
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Hi guest,

Well, Islam did produce you, so it can't be all good.

February 5, 2007
8:26 pm
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Atleast my work life is not trying to escape my own ignorance:

"My work life is about trying to find the truth and escape my own ignorance."

lol. Sorry.

February 5, 2007
8:42 pm
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guest...tell ya what...

If you decide to go to heaven, I promise I will cook you dinner up there.

Tez,
Thank you, luv ya too....however I am not one of those Christians that you have such dislike for! They sound terrible!! Yikes!

February 5, 2007
8:53 pm
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guest...listen..if I love ya, then God must, he's perfect.

February 5, 2007
9:06 pm
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Then he wouldnt burn me in hellfire, right? Or is love burning someone in hellfire?

February 5, 2007
9:08 pm
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Why this is your hell, nor are you out of it.

February 5, 2007
9:49 pm
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Actually, wd, you just touched on a theory.

Some say hell is being apart from God.

If that's the case, then here we sit.

It IS a possibility that we are currently in hell as it is described.

free

February 6, 2007
1:33 am
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Hi Free,

Oh I am just being a raving bitch.

20 days without a cigarette. I think this calls for Armageddon. Who, of course, was Godzilla's arch rival.

But yeah, I was paraphrasing Mephistophiles in the Dr. Faustus play. I like Richard Burton's rendition.

Guest-wise, I was bitchily pointing out some little bitchy point I had....

Guurk,...goookh!

What kind of God would allow me to run out of cigarettes at a time like this?!

🙂

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