Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_TopicIcon
If evolution is true ...
March 7, 2006
5:04 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

Can all those here who believe in God atleast admit that belief or disbelief in God makes no practical difference in this life? Otherwise, we'd see the difference, right?

March 7, 2006
5:14 pm
Avatar
lollipop3
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

OMW,

I would like to say one other thing and I mean no disrespect to you or your beliefs, but what you and seeker are referring to (verses) comes from the bible, which I believe in even less then I believe in God.

Lolli

March 7, 2006
9:22 pm
Avatar
on my way
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

oh-h-h-. I see Lolli,
well, that's ok with me! 🙂

March 7, 2006
9:31 pm
Avatar
on my way
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

but kathyg,
There is a ton that does not. And even the creator himself, Darwin, went to his deathbed not believing or having proof.

I think eventually, we will see how science and theology actually compliment one another. Some matters already have. God created science, so it stands to reason. 🙂

March 8, 2006
2:51 am
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Kathy,

kathygy,

{A brain is alive and full of nueronal pathways and is programmed by its DNA.}

When you can explain, in natural laws, why these neurons and DNA care about remaining as neurons and DNA, and don't care to disintegrate into some non-caring arrangment of the same molecules, then I will seriously consider evolution as a science.

By "evolution" I mean the forming of higher level life from lower level life, and of living matter from non-living matter.

{Living creatures are care about being alive because of survival instincts and the fear of pain.}

This is for higher level forms. Once they form, yes, perhaps this is so. But how would they form in the first place? From lower level forms, such as amoeba, which don't experience these things. Why would the lower level forms care to remain as living material instead of disintegrating into the much more statistically probable arrangements of their molecules that are not alive?

{I believe evolution is a theory, is science because there is a ton of scientific evidence that supports evolution and is consistent with evolution.}

The formation of life from non-living matter has never been observed. Species have never been observed to change into different species. The conditions under which life supposedly evolved cannot be recreated in the laboratory.

If you can't prove that life started from non-living matter, you can't prove the rest of evolutionary theory. The whole process could never get started.

How, then, can there be "tons" of evidence for evolution?

Seeker

March 8, 2006
3:05 am
Avatar
garfield9547
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

on my way

Verse 3 for me describes the creation of light (understanding) in the mind of man.

Sometimes we say 'Now I see what you mean"
This we do not with our natural eyes, but our spiritual.

Spiritual eye I can explain like this.

If I ask you to close you eyes and think of say a red VW Beetle.

Now open you eyes. The Beetle that you saw is from the spiritual eye.

Thanks for your reply

Garfield

March 8, 2006
3:40 am
Avatar
garfield9547
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

guest_guest

It does make a number of significant differences namely:

Living life based on a age old philosophy that has been tested adds to the purpose and direction of life by subscribing to a set of morals based on more than only self interest.

Acknowledging that we do not know it all, and in fact mostly speculate on the true nature of existence leaves the way open for growth.

Having the support of a likeminded community does assist in tackling difficult obstacles in life.

Access to a different dimention of thinking broadens life's experiences.

March 8, 2006
8:50 am
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

garfield, I want to know tangible differences (happyness, relationships, self-esteem, money, jobs - anything). I know there are none that anyone can give so there are none.

Nothing measurable is gained at all, by believing in God. Anyone want to prove me wrong?

March 8, 2006
11:14 am
Avatar
Worried_Dad
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 43
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi SeekerW,

You query:"But brains are simply, like all living matter, molecules arranged in a particular fashion obeying natural laws. Why should they "care" and non-living and other parts of living organisms don't"

Why do tires roll downhill?-because they are round. It's what they do. Same with brains.

Your brain's function is a result of it's structure.

Brains control an animal's behavior. Brains that lead to behavior that increases the reproductive fitness of individuals get selected--other brains get deselected.

You aslo said "When you can explain, in natural laws, why these neurons and DNA care about remaining as neurons and DNA, and don't care to disintegrate into some non-caring arrangment of the same molecules, then I will seriously consider evolution as a science."

Actually neurons and DNA do not "care" about anything. And you will find that every neuron and every DNA molecule eventually rearranges itself into something that does not function as DNA or as a neuron--it's called death.

DNA is not per-se alive--it is just a chemical. For example, it is common to speak of viruses, which are made of DNA or RNA, as not being "really alive." At this point we can literally create viruses in a test tube--it's just cooking.

The theory of evolution is a theory because it leads to testable hypotheses. For example, it predicted that when we discover the genetic material (which turned out to be DNA) that we would discover more or less genetic similarity between species depending on how far they have evolved away from wach other.

If you believe in paternity tests, then why should the gentic evidence that we all have a common ancestor be hard to believe? If you don't believe that DNA proves that chimpanzees and humans had a common ancestor then how can you believe in paternity testing?

The difference between the theory that all life has a common ancestor and "faith based" models is that evolutionary theory actually proposes a real-life mechanism. "Faith based" models just say "and then a miracle occurred." "Miracle" is not very specific.

March 8, 2006
11:19 am
Avatar
Worried_Dad
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 43
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Evolutionary theory does not attempt to expain the "origin" of life, by the way.

March 8, 2006
11:53 am
Avatar
lollipop3
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Seeker,

I may kick myself for this but I have a question.

You said:

"By "evolution" I mean the forming of higher level life from lower level life, and of living matter from non-living matter."

and

"If you can't prove that life started from non-living matter, you can't prove the rest of evolutionary theory. The whole process could never get started."

Now my question is....why is SO hard to believe in evolution or that living matter formed from non-living matter, but it is so easy to believe that a man was made out of dirt and his wife made out of his rib? I don't get it.

Secondly, who says an amoeba cares about anything...or that it should care about anything? It just is.

Just curious.

Love,
lolli

March 8, 2006
1:21 pm
Avatar
garfield9547
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Guest-guest

I am glad that you incuded under tangible advantages of believing in a higher power things like happiness,relationships and self esteem.

To my mind these are not tangible in a materialistic sense but is based on a series of life experiences and feelings,

This is where a greater sense of belonging and a good set of morals i.e. faith does create a greater state of harmony within youself as well as within your enviroment.

Unfortunately it does not guarantee jobs or money as it has no connection to material things.

My question to you is that if material bliss is all that we are interested in why do we seek answers or have opinions on things not of a material nature?

I think that spiritual evolution far outweighs the value of material advancement. Just look at the miserable rich that runs out of thrills and seek new ones to their own material demise.

Surely happiness, good relationships and good self esteem is a tangible benefit?

March 8, 2006
1:45 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

garfield, thats why I included happyness, relationships and self-esteem as benefits too. I didnt included just material things. Tangible or not, are there any extra benefits gained by believing in God? That was my point. What I wanted to ward of was statements like "greater state of harmony within youself" - because this is just in the air.

If there's greater sense of harmony, then we should be happier by believing in God - but are we happier? Obviously no. Show me clearly that athiests dont live better lives than thiests.

There's no advantage gained by believing in God. I think like a scientist.

March 8, 2006
1:49 pm
Avatar
kathygy
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I will repeat myself here based on comments made.

There is a huge body of scientific evidence that evolution took place to get us to this point and is ongoing. I do not believe that we have to replicate evolution to accept it given the preponderance of evidence that supports evolution.

Evolution is accepted by the scientific community which rigorously examines all scientific findings before accepting an idea.

That evidence far out weighs any evidence to the contrary.

DNA is gentically programmed to perform different tasks dependent on the types of cells. This DNA is inherited from our mother and father. There are many checks and balances biochemically that encourage the proper tasks of DNA accoding to each type of cell.

Evolution is based on science, creationism is not based on science.

I think it is dangerous to teach creationism along with evolution because creationism is based on religiopus beliefs not science and I do not think religion should be bought into public schools.

Separation of church and state is vital to this country (US). That is what drove many people to this country in the first place to get away from having religion forced down their throats.

Just because the bible says something
is not evidence for anything as far as I am concerned. Christianity was tailored to encoruage people to become christians based on what was happening at the time among slaves ruled by the Roman Empire.

Slaves had no education, no intellectual sophistication, no science and no respect, living in proverty.

I think christianity took hold because it made these slaves feel better.

March 8, 2006
3:31 pm
Avatar
on my way
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

But God created scientists, and science and DNA.

Silly. We could go on forever about this debate, and it will most likely go on forever. But it is just another choice....what one chooses to beleive in and the results of those choices. If during our daily lives, our choices make a differnce as to how our life goes, why wouldn't it make a difference in the spiritual realm with those choices, to beleive God or not?

March 8, 2006
3:38 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

Not all choices are significant in determining how much difference they make. For example if I ate a peanut for breakfast every morning, it wouldnt really make a difference in my life. 🙂 lol.

Likewise, believing or not believing in God doesnt have any important effect. Otherwise scientists would have been the first ones to point out. Our satisfaction comes from within, our self-worth. You have religious people who are not contented and athiests who are. You have religious people who are contented and athiests who are not. Etc.etc - religion doesnt give any benefit.

I'll wait for others to tell me what *measurable* or practical difference does believing in God really make in our lives?

March 8, 2006
4:32 pm
Avatar
lollipop3
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Well said guest!

March 8, 2006
8:56 pm
Avatar
on my way
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

guest...how about heaven or hell?

March 8, 2006
9:11 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

OMW, I said THIS world :D. hehe.. you thought you could get me that easily ? 😀

I'm talking about the difference believing in God can make in this world - on the Earth.

Seeker, whats your response to that?

March 8, 2006
10:22 pm
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Kathy,

{There is a huge body of scientific evidence that evolution took place ...}

You say that evolution is supported by a huge body of scientific evidence. Am I supposed to believe you on blind faith? Where's this evidence you speak of?

{Evolution is accepted by the scientific community which rigorously examines all scientific findings before accepting an idea.}

They're supposed to rigorously examine all findings, but they don't always. There are scientists who don't accept evolution as established fact.

{DNA is gentically programmed to perform different tasks dependent on the types of cells.}

What's your point? We could also claim DNA was designed by God to do the same thing. Just because it exists doesn't prove evolution produced it.

{Evolution is based on science, creationism is not based on science.}

If creationism is true, there should be observable scientific evidence supporting it. And there is! Check out this website: http://www.creationscience.com.....index.html

{I think it is dangerous to teach creationism along with evolution because creationism is based on religiopus beliefs not science and I do not think religion should be bought into public schools.}

If science supports creationism, as the website above explains, then it doesn't matter if it involves religion or not -- truth, not falsehood, should be taught.

{Separation of church and state is vital to this country (US).}

Separation of church and state isn't even in the US Constitution. The first amendment meant to prevent government from establishing an official religion. It did not mean to prohibit people from establishing their own churches or praciticing religious faith.

{I think christianity took hold because it made these slaves feel better.}

It's good for you that we're not on the support side, or I'd be forced to report you to the Site Coordinator for talking about Christianity on this site. :o) (smiley face of course)

March 8, 2006
10:25 pm
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi guest,

You said: “I'll wait for others to tell me what *measurable* or practical difference does believing in God really make in our lives?”

Yours is a really great question. It made me smile because it’s the kind of a question I would ask...I am a “show me the value” kind of a girl myself.

Newsweek featured an article entitled: "Faith and Healing." One point debated there is whether or not religion can improve health.

I am posting a few sound bites from the article, which I really enjoyed, that talk precisely a measurable or practical difference belief in God can make in someones' life.

“On Beliefnet, a popular interfaith Web site, fully three quarters of more than 35,000 online prayer circles are health related: patients’ loved ones—as well as total strangers—can log on and send prayers into the electronic ether, hoping to heal cancers, disabilities, chronic illness and addiction. Popular practices like these, as well as the growing belief in the medical community that what happens in a person’s mind (and, possibly, soul) can be as important to health as what happens on the cellular level, are leading many doctors to embrace the God they banished from the clinic long ago in favor of technological and pharmaceutical progress….”

“…One nugget, however, “blew my socks off,” Powell says. People who regularly attend church have a 25 percent reduction in mortality—that is, they live longer—than people who are not churchgoers. This is true even after controlling for variables intrinsically linked to Sundays in the pew, like social support and healthy lifestyle.

"While the data were culled mainly from Christian churchgoers, Powell says the findings should apply to any organized religion."

“This is really powerful,” she says.”

What are your thought?

March 8, 2006
10:34 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

I've heard of that kind of thing, hoped someone would bring it up again. I'm gonna have to do some research on it so I'll be back.

March 8, 2006
11:13 pm
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi Guest,

Some thoughts:

{Likewise, believing or not believing in God doesnt have any important effect. Otherwise scientists would have been the first ones to point out.}

I read a Reader's Digest article about a study that some scientists did to see whether people who believe in God are happier than those who don't. The study concluded that religious people are happier. So science has proven it! (okay, it's a stretch to say that one study proves something, but you know what I mean)

From my own point of view, I've been at various times of my life agnostic, atheist, and Christian. I can tell you without a doubt that I've been happier when I was Christian and trying to do what's right, than when I was agnostic/atheist and trying to do what's right.

Being atheist caused a darkness in me. It caused even my attempts to do good to feel somehow dark. It's hard to explain. Being a Christian and not trying to do right also has caused a similar, but somewhat lessened, darkness.

Another example of how believing in God brings tangible benefits: I believe that God wants us to pay tithing (10%) on our income. I haven't always followed that, even as a Christian, but I have been for the last year, more or less.

I can't explain it, but I have more money now than I logically should have, had two unexpected part-time jobs pop up that have given and continue to give me sorely needed extra income, I don't worry as much about things going wrong (car breaking down, etc.), and I simply feel more at peace.

Aren't these tangible benefits? (Class, say "yes" and nod your heads.) :o)

Seeker

March 9, 2006
2:10 am
Avatar
Worried_Dad
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 43
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Actually, this thread goes a bit astray from the original post...ok, if we all knowit and are ok with it.

The original post by seekerW was to pose a question about what do the phsycial structure and function of organic bodies have to tell us about the question of evolution.

It was kind of an imprecise question, but an interesting subject...so going off into God this-Hell that takes off waay off the original subject.

Just saying.

March 9, 2006
2:28 am
Avatar
Worried_Dad
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 43
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Keeping in mind folks, that I consider the subjects of the existecne of God, the origin of life to be completely separate from the question of "are all earthly life forms realted by common ancestor." THat's three entirely different issues to me...meanwhile....

Seekerw,

I'll just chide you a weee bit on your post to KathyGy.

You wrote : "You say that evolution is supported by a huge body of scientific evidence. Am I supposed to believe you on blind faith? Where's this evidence you speak "

I think you know better than to stoop to that level of rhetoric.

Since you have scientific training, you know fully well that you are not supposed to take that on blind faith. What you, as a scientist are "supposed" to do is address the research literature, its history, evidence and arguments, etc., personally.

It is not fair for you to pretend that you dont know that the relatedness of existing life forms is overwhelingly accepted by the vast majority of life scientists. If you have a problem with that viewpoint, you need to argue with them, not with laypeople who believe them.

I may as well say "When you say that the molecular weight of water is 18 grams per mole and that a molecule of water is composed of two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen, am I supposed to accept what you say on blind faith?"

It is not fair to ask a person to regurgitate more than 100 years of scientific research and reasoning in order to support an idea that is generally accepted by most scientists.

No, your orginal question in the first post is closer to the heart of the matter.

And the answer still is....ONE explanation offers a fully understandable natural mechanism...while the OTHER explanation offers as a mechanism "Then, a miracle occured and is still occuring."

Forum Timezone: UTC -8
Most Users Ever Online: 349
Currently Online:
36
Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
onedaythiswillpass: 1134
zarathustra: 562
StronginHim77: 453
free: 433
2013ways: 431
curious64: 408
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 49
Members: 111118
Moderators: 5
Admins: 3
Forum Stats:
Groups: 8
Forums: 74
Topics: 38715
Posts: 714564
Newest Members:
Marek, ssdchemical33, jack1palmer, SURUMANQ, petersmith98, ChristenD
Moderators: arochaIB: 1, devadmin: 9, Tincho: 0, Donn Gruta: 0, Germain Palacios: 0
Administrators: admin: 21, ShiningLight: 572, emily430: 29

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC. All rights reserved.
Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Cookie Policy | Health Disclaimer | Do Not Sell My Personal Information