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I think women are better than men ...
March 8, 2006
3:07 pm
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oops I was offtopic as usual. eeee. Ok so the ball is in Seeker's court now.

March 8, 2006
3:18 pm
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kathyg---
just a thought though....not everything that we need to hear, feels good at the time. sometimes our world can be turned upside down when we hear someethng about ourselves that we didn't WANT to hear.

A childlike temperament will most times re-act (my thoughts anyway)whereas an adult may feel anger but not lash out and respond.

I don't think anyone means you ill in any shape or fashion. With so many personality types here on aac, it is good to take it all in and not personally...part of the healing process. Evryone will see you, or me, or someone else differently...some are right some are wrong, but it is good to take it all with a grain of salt first before throwing it out, don't you think?

March 8, 2006
10:47 pm
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Kathy,

You said:

{seeker,

"Why do you persist in denigrating your fellow women? Why denigrate yourself? "

What??? This is not where I am coming from at all. I have zero idea why you said this.
}

I'd like to explain myself better. Here was the post of yours that I replied to:

{
kathygy
7-Mar-06

seeker,

"Because I've read too many posts on this site alone, and known too many women with sad experiences, to know that women seem more likely to endure unworthy men in the hopes they'll grow, than vice versa.

Women seem more determined to see that a relationship works than vice versa, and will often sacrifice themselves in the process.

Women don't stand up for themselves like they should, and most men, when they do talk, tend to not defend women but at best try to put both themselves and women on an equal playing field. "

Do you really think these are good traits???

They sound very codependent to me and are about women who lack self-esteem.

...}

I was talking of the wonderful nurturing that women do that keeps the world going. It causes a woman to give more of herself than she is duty bound to give, because somebody else needs her to. In and of itself, isn't this good? Where would the world be, where would our children be, if we didn't have such nurturing?

I know that you yourself seek to nurture people on this site, and put your neck on the line to do so at times.

You said these are co-dependent traits and show a lack of self-esteem. You put these traits themselves down, and put down the idea that a woman should be willing to sacrifice herself.

That's why I said you were denigrating women, and yourself.
These traits are wonderful, noble, pure, and virtuous, in and of themselves.

It is only when they are taken advantage of that the woman becomes co-dependent and her self-esteem is shattered.

I know you've helped a number of women on this site, and offered them support and advice they've appreciated. I acknowledge that and give you due credit.

I was speaking of ideals, not of individual people.

Does this help any? I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

March 9, 2006
3:54 pm
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I'm still confused by your comments.

I still don't see why you choose to say I degrade myself when I don't.

But I will say that I do think nurturing is a very good thing. I think everybody needs some nurturing. It is very healing and comforting.

The only thing I object to is if a woman is scraficing herself in the process or negliecting her own needs or if she is being nurturing to man who is abusive to her. I do not see these situations as noble but as tragedies.

I nurture my own self and my inner child everyday. I am extremely nurturing to my cats.

March 9, 2006
10:03 pm
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Hi Kathy,

What I meant is it seemed you were degrading the ideal of nurturing, of sacrificing one's own needs for the good of somebody else. And if you degraded this ideal, you'd be degrading yourself because you are a woman. I meant nothing personal by that.

{The only thing I object to is if a woman is scraficing herself in the process or negliecting her own needs or if she is being nurturing to man who is abusive to her. I do not see these situations as noble but as tragedies.}

I agree 100 percent. I would add that her nurturing is noble but his taking advantage of it, or not nurturing her in return, is a tragedy, in fact, despicable.

I get very angry when I see a guy take advantage of a woman's nurturing nature.

However, if somebody gets overly concerned about protecting themselves, they will become less nurturing, and will become focused inward rather than outward. So somebody can't approach nurturing with the thought, "I'll only give so much because I might get hurt."

I'm not talking about you here, just in general.

They must go into nurturing knowing they might get hurt, and do it anyway, and bear with a certain amount of suffering in order for it to be true nurturing.

Of course ideally, the nurturer should be nurtured by somebody else -- their partner, preferably, if they have one. But since this doesn't always happen, the woman must take steps to protect herself by cutting off or limiting a relationship, as you have said before.

The more I talk about this with you, the more I get the feeling we agree much more than we disagree. I hope you get the same feeling.

I read what you said elsewhere about you having to parent your own parents, and winced because I have an idea what that's like. My daughter has a friend who was in that situation, and I saw a little bit of how it hurt her.

So you have cats? What kind and how many? I grew up with cats myself, and at one point we had seven.

Seeker

March 9, 2006
11:41 pm
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seekr-did ur house smell like a cat box????? 🙂

March 10, 2006
2:00 pm
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seeker,

"However, if somebody gets overly concerned about protecting themselves, they will become less nurturing, and will become focused inward rather than outward. So somebody can't approach nurturing with the thought, "I'll only give so much because I might get hurt."

The exact opposite happens. I know this from experience. The more I take care of myself and protect myself the more I have to give. I trust my judgement so I can give more freely to appropriate people.

"They must go into nurturing knowing they might get hurt, and do it anyway, and bear with a certain amount of suffering in order for it to be true nurturing. "

Where on earth did you get this idea??? suffering is a necessary part of being nurturing???!! No way!

Why would you even think this?

A woman should never have to suffer needlessly. I whole heartedly disagree with concept!

Rather, I think a woman should only be nurturing when it is safe for her to do so.

I think it is very important for women to stay away from men who will hurt them. All the red flags are there. A woman only has to recognize them and retreat.

Do you trully not care about a woman's feelings?

March 10, 2006
2:08 pm
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cats, a much happier topic.

I have three cats. One is a very sweet calico who sadly has chronic kidney failure and I have to give her fluids everyother day with a needle. She doesn't like it but is willing to sit still for it. Then I give her some cat treats.

I also, have a gray and white male cat who is the oldest and deems himself as always having priority seating. He is very smart too.

The other one is a female tabby also very sweet who talks a lot!

I love coming home to them. They hear me coming and are all gathered in the living room eagerly waiting for me. It does my heart good when they greet me.

March 10, 2006
2:25 pm
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seeker, I think you want women to never lose their nurturning quality because you want to be loved and be taken care of. Everyone does.

I agree with kathy here: to say that women are right to stay in bad relationships where they are being hurt and there's no hope of success - is not good at all. Its you saying that women who are co-dependent are OK.

If you see your first post, you'll see that effectively you said "Women who are co-dependent are great for being so, and should never stop being so. Men also need to follow in their tracks".

I also agree with kathy that when you are healthy, you dont have to suffer while nurturing others. You'll do it naturally and smoothly and will enjoy doing it. Anyway I do get your point.

Look at your first post:

>> Women tend to stay with loser guys << Is that a good thing? Reflect this on yourself. Would you prefer to be a guy who tends to stay with loser women? NO. Right? There you go, I dont need to say more. >> They'll overlook drug habits, affairs, being emotionally unavailable, etc., in the hope, often vain, that their man will reform. << While you were looking for your dream women, would YOU prefer to overlook drug habits and abuse? No. Never. Thats the point. I'm co-dependent to some extent you know, like we all are struggling with issues here, but I think its quite coD of you to say that its OK for women to hang around abusive and drugged mates because thats a good quality women have - nurturing. Maybe you felt apologetic to women when you were writing this post, becuase some of them take so much crap (abusive mates). Dont you agree, that if a woman was mentally healthy, she would be able to leave an abusive partner? Yes/no?

March 10, 2006
2:27 pm
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aw kathy thats so cute. How does the male talk? What did you mean, meoowing?

March 10, 2006
2:54 pm
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guest,

you have a wonderful way of saying, that's so cute. It shows a sweet, gentle, loving side of you.

Yes, my cat talks by meowing as if to say 'I'm so happy you are home','pay attention to me', 'get off the phone', 'get off the computer', 'get down on the floor and play with me'.

I do give her lots of attention but she hates it when I am distracted unless she's curled up somewhere taking a nap.

Mt cats love it when I am stretched out on the sofa watching T.V. Then they come up and laid down on top of me and purr and lick me. It really makes me feel good.

Sometimes I have a conflict with my inner child's needs and my cats' needs.

lets say I'm all comfortable on the sofa with my cats very happily laying on top of me. This is their dream situation. But then my inner child needs something like a glass of cold water or to go to the bathroom but I hate to disturb my cats! I have to admit sometimes I make my inner child wait I (so sorry inner child!).

Maybe I'm a codependent cat mother.

March 10, 2006
4:11 pm
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thanks kathy, I like cats. I'm feminine in this cuteness. I see a baby and I react inside the same way a woman does, i.e. I find the innocence really cute. I like that part of me. Heh, thats so cute. I wish I had cats too. My landlord doesnt allow me. That main girl has two at home.. oh well.. I better not think about her.

This conflict thing is there for me too, yes. I'm learning, will respond in the inner child thread. Atleast I have learnt these things about inner child, if not actually practiced them and gained mastery in them. Its a start.

March 10, 2006
9:21 pm
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guest,

Its a great part of you, its a part of the reason I find you so appealing.

As far as that 'main girl' goes, she dosen't deserve you or your love. You have pointed out many things about her that are very undesireable.

Remember those things when you start to have lustful thoughts about her.

You deserve a woman who is ALL yours and is honest and true. You have a lot to offer a relationship. Why waste it on someone so underserving?

I suspect its your childhood wounds that attract you to her. Somewhere along the line you got the message that you don't deserve to be loved and appreciated for who you are, as is.

What 'conflict things' are you refering to?

March 11, 2006
4:21 am
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Thanks kathy, sometimes what you say about your inner child wells up my eyes in emotion (but then I'm easy to well up, like I do if its a real good song I'm listening to and I think of someone I like at that time).
I've replied to the girl matter in my girl thread, had some developments in our meeting today.

I do fear that no one will like me in the long term, I wish I didnt have that feeling. Sometimes its ok though and it gets better.

The conflicts with the inner child is what I meant. For example, if my adult is tired and my child in hungry or sometimes I dont know what my child needs, sometimes there's two alternatives like today: I was wanting to fix the TV so I could watch it and have fun, but I was also tired. Me going off topic again.. eee. But thats fun sometimes, hehe. Getting something you dont expect, breaking the rules, doing things out of whack.

March 11, 2006
11:18 am
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Kathy,

I think we're talking from different perspectives. I tend to think in terms of ideals, the way things ought to be, not necessarily how they really are, and I get the impression you think more in terms of realities ... women should be nurturing and self-sacrificing (as men should be too, BTW) and other women and men should nurture them enough in return and look after them so that the women retain their own self-esteem and happiness.

But this often doesn't really happen, so women must watch after themselves. It's sad; this is hardly the ideal, but it happens and must be dealt with.

I never advocated a women staying in any relationship where she's not receiving back what she needs ... I thought I'd made this clear; maybe I didn't.

Bearing with a certain amount of suffering and self-sacrifice (not too much, however, I must stress) is involved in any nurturing relationship. For example, does a woman always feel like getting up in the middle of a cold night to tend to a sick child, when she might be sick herself and have other concerns? No, but she will, and doesn't begrudge her sacrifice for her child.

No woman should ever have to suffer needlessly. But a certain level of suffering is built into any healthy relationship.

Nobody ought to approach every single nurturing instance with the thought, "Is this safe for me to do this instance of nurturing?" Obviously in extraordinary circumstances, yes, but otherwise, the whole concept of nurturing loses its beauty.

The person should definitely stop nurturing a particular person if it becomes inappropriate or too wearing on her. I absolutely agree with this.

{Do you trully not care about a woman's feelings?}

You'll find I care tremendously. Do you still feel I don't care after this post?

Seeker

March 11, 2006
11:27 am
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Kathy,

Your cats sound adorable. My cats are long since gone, but they would gather round me when I would come back home. I tended our cats more than anybody else in my family did. I think I was their favorite person. Whenever I'd sit or lie on the couch, I'd always have at least two of them sitting on my lap or next to me, or lying on my back.

One cat of ours looked just like a panther. I don't know what types they were, but three were black, one was calico, another gray and white, and two others were mixups of various colors.

I will always love cats.

March 11, 2006
11:57 am
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Guest,

{seeker, I think you want women to never lose their nurturning quality because you want to be loved and be taken care of.}

Of course I want love, but there's much more to it than that. I don't want them to lose this quality for two reasons: one, I find it very noble and inspiring, and two, I want to learn to nurture like women do, and I need worthy examples.

It wonderful the way women nurture so selflessly. It's despicable that their nurturing is ever taken advantage of. I'm all for the nurturing, adamantly opposed to anybody taking advantage of it for their own selfish ends.

It's wonderful and healthy that women end relationships with men who take advantage of them; it's sad that men put them in a position to have to do that, and sad that women ever feel guilty for being forced into this position, and sad for the suffering they feel as a result of the loss of what could have been, and sad they have to start all over again to look for a healthy relationship.

Women have to watch out for themselves if their men don't do it for them; this is a practical reality, not the ideal.

Making this practical reality the ideal is not the answer. The answer is continuing to affirm the ideal while dealing with realities as one is required to, but always remembering how things should be.

{Its you saying that women who are co-dependent are OK.}

The only difference in my book between a co-dependent woman and a "healthy" woman (for lack of a better term) is that the co-dependent woman does not receive enough back, and the other one does. The same woman could be either co-dependent or non-co-dependent; it all depends on her partner.

{If you see your first post, you'll see that effectively you said "Women who are co-dependent are great for being so, and should never stop being so. Men also need to follow in their tracks".}

Not at all. Tell me if you still feel this way after the other things I've posted to you and Kathy today.

{I also agree with kathy that when you are healthy, you dont have to suffer while nurturing others.}

I think there's a certain level of suffering inherent in any relationship. There's always some level of needful suffering. It's needless suffering that one shouldn't put up with.

{Look at your first post:

>> Women tend to stay with loser guys << Is that a good thing?} It's a terribly frustrating, unfair thing that makes me want to pull my hair out! But they do --- you can't deny this after reading the support threads for even a single week. They tend to do this. I never said it was good that they put up with such suffering -- only that I find a certain nobility in it, that they are true to their nurturing nature in spite of enormous personal cost. By all means they should kick loser guys out of their lives. They shouldn't put up with them. It's the guys who take advantage of the nurturing who are to blame, not the women. Does this answer your quesitons? Seeker

March 11, 2006
12:02 pm
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Kathy,

{lets say I'm all comfortable on the sofa with my cats very happily laying on top of me. This is their dream situation. But then my inner child needs something like a glass of cold water or to go to the bathroom but I hate to disturb my cats! I have to admit sometimes I make my inner child wait I (so sorry inner child!).

Maybe I'm a codependent cat mother.}

This is a perfect example of what I mean by putting up with a certain amount of suffering in a relationship! You sacrifice some of your own needs (for water, etc.) for your cats' sake. But you do it willingly, right?

No, you're not codependent to your cats, because they give back to you. They help meet your needs.

Seeker

March 11, 2006
2:00 pm
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Kathy and Guest,

I know that all threads tend to stray from their original intent, and that's okay with me. However, your conversation with each other is straying a bit farther away than I feel comfortable with.

I don't want to discourage your conversation. However, may I respectfully ask you to take it elsewhere? Thank you.

Seeker

March 11, 2006
11:56 pm
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seeker, sorry to be off-topic, its my (bad) habit.

>>By all means they should kick loser guys out of their lives.<< So do you think women that put up with drinking, drugged abusive mates are emotionally healthy or not?

March 12, 2006
1:11 am
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guest,

{So do you think women that put up with drinking, drugged abusive mates are emotionally healthy or not?}

How should I know? I don't have a window into their soul.

I don't think it's my place to label them emotionally healthy or unhealthy. It's my place to encourage them to leave and find somebody who will treat them better.

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