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I think women are better than men ...
February 28, 2006
1:25 pm
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kathygy
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I do not think women are better than men because they are too codependent to leave an abusive and unrewarding relationship. If they stay in these sick relationships they lack self-esteem to move on to a healthier partner.

I like to think that both mean and woman are equal in worthiness. I don't know what you mean by 'better'.

Someone's value does not come from staying in a dysfunctional relationship and giving to someone who deosn't give back.

Women and men are both valueable and worthy as a given regardless of thier relationship history.

staying in dysfunctional relationships is a result of childhood wounds.

not a measure of value or worthiness.

Many women leave dysfunctional relationships and stop giving once they notice they are not getting back.

Many women never get into dysfunctional relationships like with an addict.

I see the whole things as behaviors and childhood wounds are who is 'better'.

Some men are very giving and communicative and open some are not.

Why do you have a need to declare that women are 'better' than men?

That's the real question to me.

February 28, 2006
4:58 pm
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One interesting reason that came up just now to me. Maybe women like to stay with abusive men because when men abuse, they show power and they show they can take a risk (that she'll quit on them). Maybe a part of the abused women likes that risk and power show and finds it attractive, so they're drawn back in. Maybe a crazy theory, maybe not.

March 1, 2006
10:58 pm
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Anonymous
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Guest,

In spite of your sleepiness, your meaning shines through.

I agree completely with you. I just don't want us to equate women's not guarding their hearts with men's trampling all over them. Not locking your doors is regrettable but understandable; stealing a car is reprehensible.

Does that make sense?

Seeker

March 1, 2006
11:17 pm
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Anonymous
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Kathy,

{Why do you have a need to declare that women are 'better' than men? }

Because I've read too many posts on this site alone, and known too many women with sad experiences, to know that women seem more likely to endure unworthy men in the hopes they'll grow, than vice versa.

Women seem more determined to see that a relationship works than vice versa, and will often sacrifice themselves in the process.

Women don't stand up for themselves like they should, and most men, when they do talk, tend to not defend women but at best try to put both themselves and women on an equal playing field.

Women's nurturing nature has a downside ... they are prone to great self-doubt ... women need to hear, and hear often, what a treasure they are. I'm a seeker ... I seek for things that need to be said, and I say them.

I heaped emotional neglect on my wife and caused her great pain. She had her issues, too, but mine were greater than hers. I learned my lesson too late for both her and I.

She was better in the things that really count --- relationships --- than I was, and sadly it seems like I was fairly par for the course, compared with other men, in this respect.

This why I think women are, in general, better than men in the things that really count.

Seeker

March 1, 2006
11:37 pm
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Anonymous
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SD,

{Are you trying to butter us (gals) up? Didn't you say on another thread you couldn't get a date? How could that be? }

No, I'm not trying to butter anybody here up. What good would it do me anyway? I can never actually meet any of you anyway.

I could't get a date because I'm not yet legally divorced. My wife and I have been separated a long time, and she rebuffed one too many attempts of mine to get back together with her. I emotionally divorced her at that point.

I snapped for a while and tried dating, but my conscience bothered me too much, seeing I wasn't free to make a lifelong commitment to anybody. I was consumed by my own pain and was being selfish.

So that's my story.

Seeker

March 2, 2006
12:19 am
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seeker, yea, that makes sense, I see what you're saying.

March 2, 2006
1:05 am
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Worried_Dad
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Women may be better than men...

But Guitars are better than women.

No guitar called me names, or cheated on me or got drunk and beat me.

Men ARE better than accordians, I am convinced. And men are, at the very least morally as good as harmonicas.

Probably we could use automobile metaphors too.

Look, lots of women have horror stories about men. Lots of men have described some pretty despicable acts by women. Women have awful stories about being mistreated by women. Men have been mistreated by men. Children describe some pretty crappy behavior by both men and women.

I think it is ok to point out problems in the culture of men, or women. There is a lot of learning there....and growth possible. Hey, it is even source of a lot of good jokes.

But I think it is not wise to get too carried away with gender politics unless that is your specific mission and duty, as in, you are the president of N.O.W. or M.E.N. or something.

Men and women, you just can't live without 'em. Go ahead and try, I dare you.

Guitars, I could live without...but why would I want to.

Accordians....I'm thinking about it.

March 2, 2006
2:05 am
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Worried Dad,

There is merit in what you say. However ... in general, I'd bet my life that women treat men better than vice versa. If you could look at every single relationship in the world and give a point to whoever was treating their mate better, I'd bet everything I own that far more points would be awarded to the women. God love them!

I'm talking about generalities, not specific cases. I know there are exceptions to every rule.

Except for the law of accordians. There seems to be a law that everybody pokes fun at them. While I respect them as I do all musical instruments, that won't stop me from poking some fun at them myself. :o)

Seeker

March 2, 2006
3:00 am
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Worried_Dad
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((Seekerw))

I think the way clear is for each of us to choose to develop ourselves as good men, and good women, and to hold out brothers and sisters accountable to be good women and men.

As a mortal human being I can't have detailed knowledge of "every single realtionship." I have to work with people and relationships one at a time.

Love yourself Seeker, as God loves you. Respect yourself Seeker; you are a decent man. Trust yourself Seeker; you have good intentions. Don't compare yourself. Just be yourself.

March 3, 2006
2:58 am
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WD,

Thanks for your support. It's midnight and I have to get to bed and I can't think straight. But I appreciate your support of me. You're a good, decent man yourself.

Seeker

March 3, 2006
8:40 am
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Juanita
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Seeker & WD

You are both good men.

I don't necessarily think women are better than men ~ I think our own self doubt and insecurities keep us (in part) where we are at.

We are afraid (some of us, not all) to be alone, to pay the bills alone, to raise the kids alone, to be in an apartment alone, to walk the street alone .... afraid we won't be able to afford the necessities let alone some fun for us or our kids, afraid to get mugged,raped or murdered walking down the street or living alone - single women being the 'perfect' target for men. Society and the local late night news keep us afraid of being truly independent.... at least that is PART of my thought pattern. (I'm rambling ~ sorry)

"Better the Devil you Know than Don't Know" kind of thing... Stay where you are at if it's not all "that" bad or tolerable.

Who wants to invest all that time and energy into some relationship to have to move on and try again? It is hard.

Seeker,

It is so nice to know there are men out there who consider women 'better' than men. Thank you for the compliment. But men have their good points too ~ in some ways I consider them better as not seeming to have to deal with as much emotional baggage as (I) tend to do. I am tired of weighing every little aspect into relationship decisions. Wish I could react more for 'myself' - but that is not part of the marriage vows of two becoming one. I think women over think & over analyze & over 'give'.

I wish there were more an equal balance between giving and taking between men & women.

but.... again,

thanks for thinking we are great.

as you can see, my thoughts zip all over the place...

March 3, 2006
11:38 pm
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on my way
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I hav eonly read a few of the last few threads...but I am a woman, and i don't think it has anything to do with gender. I think it has to do with what kind of spirit we have inside.

I have a friend that I have to wrtie about, an old friend. He is engaged to someone whose divorce that he did, it was a very ugly divorce, very angry divorce. She is just our of a very abusive relationship, with no time inbetween to grow and heal. Personal growth is important. He has taken her into his home, and has plans to marry her. She seems very sad in the relationship, and he seems to have what he wants. She is Chinese, whether this has anything to do with cultural treatment of men or how Chinese womwn are, I don't know. But I just want to tell him, Hey fella, you two are using each other. I see her taking him for everything that he has 6 months to a year down the road, and he is in this shallow relationship, he would give the shirt off his back to help anyone, and the whole relationship is a fake. He is my friend, she is not. I can't say anything. But they are both at fault. He is taking advantage that he can control her...and she is most likely going to come back and divorce him. So here, we have both man and woman just sort of "OUT THERE".

March 4, 2006
3:34 am
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Anonymous
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Juanita,

Thank you for your post. You describe so well how I think many women think as far as relationships go.

I still think that women's propensity toward self doubt and insecurities is the flip side of their being such wonderful nurturers. They go hand in hand, like heads and tails on a coin. That propensity gives us men the opportunity to be kind, gentle, loving, assuring back, to let them know we value them above all else in all our actions, words, and thoughts. Fortunately for us, women can be extremely forgiving.

I think that most women want a good relationship with their men like most men want to be good providers for their women. I constantly worry about my own ability to provide ... things are finally looking up financially for me after several years of underemployment, and I'd be devastated if I were laid off right now.

If men just focused on being good providers not only financially but also emotionally, spiritually, romantically, etc., women wouldn't be so worried and full of self doubt. They'd continue, this time more happily, planning and fussing over all the little details of the relationship.

You said: {I don't necessarily think women are better than men} It's much better that you say this than I, or any other man, do. :o)

{It is so nice to know there are men out there who consider women 'better' than men. Thank you for the compliment.}

Wow. Thank you.

{But men have their good points too ~ in some ways I consider them better as not seeming to have to deal with as much emotional baggage as (I) tend to do.}

Isn't this like saying that I am a better sea captain because I have never had to sail on a stormy sea, while you have? :o)

Maybe if men dealt with more of the relationship details, women wouldn't have to and wouldn't worry as much. But somehow I think women enjoy fussing over these details when the relationship is secure.

{thanks for thinking we are great.}

Thank you, women, for BEING so great.

Seeker

March 4, 2006
3:53 am
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Hi on my way,

Are you sure your friend simply doesn't want to help out his Chinese fiancee, to show her how a man can be kind and gentle to her, instead of abusive?

Men, or at least this man, enjoy the thought of 'rescuing' his woman, of making her feel safe and secure. Could he simply feel a strong need to 'rescue' a woman in a healthy sense of the word, especially so soon after undergoing such a messy divorce?

{He is engaged to someone whose divorce that he did, it was a very ugly divorce, very angry divorce}

What do you mean by this? I'm puzzled.

Seeker

March 4, 2006
10:27 am
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on my way
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Hi Seeker,
You might be right. I will write more about this later to you ok? You have definitely hit a nerve...not a bad thing, just reality, and what that implies for me. thanks,
omw

March 5, 2006
3:54 pm
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Juanita
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Dear Seeker,

I am in the midst of my own self discovery due to marriage difficulties.. I remained quiet for too many years about too many things that emotionally hurt me. Currently I am in counseling and have no idea where this will lead. Will it save my marriage, or will it lead to my own independence? Who knows, but I need to change my ways of handling things & stand up for myself more. My spouse said many a stupid thing all in "jest" for a long time. I let it deteriorate my self esteem thinking the man who loved and adored me could cause such pain & be completely blind to it.

You are so wonderful when you say you want to not only provide financially for a woman you love, but emotionally, spiritually, and romantically as well. (can we say 'dreamboat' qualities?) So much of that has not been in balance with my marriage & I am only realizing it the past few years. Again, I returned to 'my remain quiet & it will heal itself' routine (it does not work BTW). Bravo for you to want to provide all these key elements to a very special woman. I hope and pray she appreciates all you have to offer, and realize how rare a gem you are.

Neither men or women are the greatest. We each have our positive traits. The ones that are the greatest are the ones who can provide this balance above. Sometimes I wish men and woman could share their 'positive' traits inherent upon themselves to the other. I wish I were more logical and conclusive like men, possessing more physical strength would be cool too. I wish men would try to be more sensitive and understand women look at things in so many different ways... to understand our hormonal rollercoaster we deal with every month on top of that complete with water retention and pants that suddenly become too tight!

It is marvelous when the right man teams up with the right woman. What a union they become ~ each becoming the supplemental angle to the other making both of them whole. What was that Tom Cruise movie (Eddie McGuire?) where he says "You complete me". Alas.... every romantic woman longs for that!

Seeker I think you demonstrate an appreciation for women that many men don't. Again, thank you ... The appreciation is much appreciated!

Juanita

March 6, 2006
10:02 pm
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Juanita,

I am very sorry to hear of your marriage difficulties. I pray they are resolved in favor of your marriage -- I'm a huge believer in marriage. And of course that takes two people. If it's any comfort, yours seems to be a fairly common story.

I didn't really appreciate women as much as they deserve until after my own marriage fell apart. It took me months of mourning and pain to realize what a gem my wife was, and what a gem most women are. I hope your husband doesn't have to learn this way.

Last year I wrote a speech in which I pled with men to not do what I'd done -- emotionally neglect my wife. I spent a month crafting that speech, and from the effort of writing it came most of my current thoughts about men and women.

BTW, thank you for telling me you appreciate my thoughts on women. Men don't generally take too favorably to my expressing these sentiments, and sometimes I wonder if I should just keep them quiet. I can't, of course; I'm driven to say them, but thank you for letting me know that somebody wants to hear them.

Seeker

March 7, 2006
4:30 pm
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kathygy
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seeker,

"Because I've read too many posts on this site alone, and known too many women with sad experiences, to know that women seem more likely to endure unworthy men in the hopes they'll grow, than vice versa.

Women seem more determined to see that a relationship works than vice versa, and will often sacrifice themselves in the process.

Women don't stand up for themselves like they should, and most men, when they do talk, tend to not defend women but at best try to put both themselves and women on an equal playing field. "

Do you really think these are good traits???

They sound very codependent to me and are about women who lack self-esteem.

Healthy, strong women who are not codependent are not likely to come to this web site.

How can you genralize from anything you hear here?

March 8, 2006
3:07 am
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Kathy,

{Do you really think these are good traits???

They sound very codependent to me and are about women who lack self-esteem.

Healthy, strong women who are not codependent are not likely to come to this web site.

How can you genralize from anything you hear here?}

I've read and replied to what you posted on the One Flaw in Women thread.

Why do you persist in denigrating your fellow women? Why denigrate yourself?

Nurturing is a GOOD thing. It only becomes bad when you are not nurtured sufficiently in return. You know about this, Kathy. You are very good about nurturing your inner child, because nobody nurtured her. You had to take on the job.

Nurturing without receiving enough nurturing in return is being codependent. It takes two people to nurture each other to make a healthy relationship, and it gives both people self-esteem.

I can generalize from what I've seen on this site for a very simple reason. The same women who come here know what they need in order to be healthy and strong, and not codependent.

They need a partner to nurture them back.

I know this because I've been reading these threads for a few months now.

Seeker

March 8, 2006
1:55 pm
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kathygy
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seeker,

"Why do you persist in denigrating your fellow women? Why denigrate yourself? "

What??? This is not where I am coming from at all. I have zero idea why you said this.

I put a lot in my responses to other women in troubled reltionships in attempt to inspire them to love and care about them selves, to value their selves.

Denigrating myself???
What! I don't get you at all. I never denigrate myself here.

I think you have a massive misunderstanding of everything I said here. I am totally perplexed!!!!

March 8, 2006
2:02 pm
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Yes thats definitely interesting, I'd like to know too why seeker thinks kathy denigrates women :D. I think she does not. I'm also perplexed but perhaps with lesser exclamation points, like maybe 3? --> !!! lol. (sorry kathy, just being playful).

Kathy I dont know why some people on this site(seeker not included) think you've been hard to them. Is it because you've been straightforward and honest to them? You know, that thread where people started talking about you. I really wonder what complaint they had, I never understood why they were upset. I want to know this cause you take care of your inner child so much and so thats interesting as to, why some people would be upset at you. Does it just mean no one can keep everyone happy? And so maybe you're not at fault, its just that you're suguar and they like something else, like cinammon.

March 8, 2006
2:29 pm
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guest,

I think that everyone has their own childhood wounds that influence how they see the world and operate in adult relationships.

It is my opinion that childhood wounds play a big role in this web site and what people say. I beleive that childhood wounds are a part of the dynamics here.

I am not saying that EVERYTHING said here is based on childhood wounds. A lot of love and support is genuine and people sometimes do have valueable insights into other people's situations.

My own childhood wounds can get triggered sometimes. I have a childhood wound around being misunderstood or judged in a negative way.

When that happens I feel frustrated and angry. I may take it personally when its really about the other person and not about me.

I still have some very deeply ingrained childhood wounds to heal. but the difference now is that I still love myself and love my inner child just the way I am right now. I back myself 100% no matterwhat. That's not to say that sometimes I am wrong about a situation or a person.

Its about never abandoning myself and my inner child.

March 8, 2006
2:34 pm
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Thanks. I still didnt get why people would find you offensive sometimes. I wish I could have seen some quotes from those people. Anyway, guess I can bury thus.

March 8, 2006
2:40 pm
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kathygy
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guest,

I think what happened was that a few people mis-took my honesty and frankness and turned it into my not caring about people, or blaming them for their problems but I never, ever intend that. I think it was a case of ascribing something to me that wasn't there.

March 8, 2006
2:45 pm
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I think so too, kind of, that it was honesty and frankness that pressed the buttons. I wish there was more frankness and honesty in everyone. That way atleast we could all know what people are really thinking. Its questionable though. In this western society, people are very careful about being polite. __I dont know if thats a good thing or not__. Now again, in the sentence I just wrote between the dashes is considered meaning as "I dont THINK its a good thing".

That makes my point about western politeness. When I myself say the thing in the dashes, I really mean it, so yes, I reallyt dont know if its a good thing or not, all this politeness. One could say its a cultural thing. Oh well.. bleah. My mind is overloaded. Unless I see some quotes from them, I wont believe that you were offensive. Keep being honest and frank, its a good thing ofcourse.

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