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I need some insight
September 19, 2004
3:51 pm
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workinonit
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Can anyone give me some insight into the frikkin male animal? I am tired of meeting men who have been hurt and do not want a committed relationship or guys who only want to take from you until you are nothing but a shell.

I need to understand why men close off this way? Why do they feel we are only more trouble in their lives and how can they not even try?

September 20, 2004
3:50 pm
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Cici
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I can tellyou why I have a fear of committment. I don't know why men do, in general. I have noticed more and more females my age having the exact same issue, though. Lots of my friends have gone 5, 6+ years without being in a relationship, just "hanging out" with the same "friend" but refusing to do anything more than that.

In many respects, I think it's a fear of success/fear of failure (the two often go hand in hand). Most men in our society grew up without good male role models, either because of absent fathers who worked a lot, or because of divorce, or because their dad simply didn't know how to relate to them. I say this because it really is an epidemic in our country.

For me, I don't really understand myself why I can't handle one committed relationship. I had infidelity problems when I was married, too. Lots of times it really is just a physical thing, I really just want to satisfy my urges - like scratching an itch - and I kick the guy out at 4am so I can sleep by myself in my own bed.

then sometimes i get "trapped" in a quasi-relationship because the guy gets attached to me and we hang out a lot, and he assumes that I want something more but I am just basically happy with the convenience of having the guy around to do guy type things for me, like move furniture and mow my lawn. Which is really sucky, but I kinda feel like if he really wanted anything from me he would sit down and have that open conversation with me about what exactly he wanted from me. I can see how a guy would think the same way - having a lady around to be there, to listen, to have sex with...it's nice, but once the committment comes in to play it loses it's attractiveness.

I stay away from committment now because I hate the fighting, the bargaining, the asking for permission to do this that or the other - it's consideration, but I just don't want to deal with having to be considerate right now.

God I sound like a dude. har har. Maybe this whole thing is just one massive defense mechanism to deal with the fact that men are all like that. hah! wouldn't that beat all.

September 20, 2004
5:41 pm
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One coin - two sides; Fear of emeshment and fear of abandonment. One fear motivates us to push our partner away while the other to pull him/her into contact with us.

Loose relationships, that is those without commitment, allow the push-pull game to be played until either one or both partners get sick of it.

Insecurely attached children (Ainsworth et. al.) are condemned to play many variants of the old push-pull game as adults until they learn enough about themselves and the game that they are playing.

Once they learn the nature of the 'game' in relation to their own version then they are free to choose not to play it. Until then it's 'the circle game' of repeated push-pulls.

September 20, 2004
5:50 pm
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One ignorance based defence against the intense pain experienced in the push-pull game, is to place our feelings in a straight jacket and then objectively 'using' our partners for our own needs fulfillment. We can simply close off to others. Of course the final outcome of this dysfunctional approach is disastrous.

September 20, 2004
10:47 pm
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workinonit
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Cici, I could be this way if I tried real hard but, you see, I'd have to try. I feel so vulnerable so I don't see anyone and then I think, ok I'm ready to try again and BAM, same frikkin thing all over again.

I just can't use someone. Ridiculous but true.

Tez, I think I am only meeting or more true, attracted to men with their feelings in a straight jacket. I wonder lately if I am facing my own issues of abandonment. As a kid, I used to go to bed fantasizing about a father who would tell me goodnight and tuck me to bed. Jeez, I hate that damn memory.

So does it have anything to do with my pattern?

September 21, 2004
6:12 pm
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Workinonit.

You said:

"Tez, I think I am only meeting or more true, attracted to men with their feelings in a straight jacket."

It is good to see that you recognize that you are attracted to men in emotional straightjackets. That's an inportant part of your jigsaw puzzle that will be a lifetime task of putting together. Don't let impatience entice you to hammer the pieces in to make them fit. Leave them to one side until you see 'where' to put them. Time will bring this about.

And:

" I wonder lately if I am facing my own issues of abandonment."

I suspect that your dissatisfactions with your romantic relationships are motivating you to look within you for their causes. This is also good - for this is where the roots of the problem and the solutions lie. We cannot change others only ourselves.

"As a kid, I used to go to bed fantasizing about a father who would tell me goodnight and tuck me to bed."

This is the signpost that points to further insights into your emotions that are driving you towards the straightjacketed men.

My guess is that you seek out men that are templates of your father and then you try to change them into the caring person that you wanted your father to be. Unfortunately your father wasn't emotionally available to you - was he.

" Jeez, I hate that damn memory."

That memory is your friend. This aversion is yet another signpost that might indicate that you need to develop a warm, gentle, carressing, motherly attitude to your tender and painful emotional memories rather than a rejecting, harsh, judgmental one. Feelings are not facts; but they are signposts and warning signs that are best respected and used appropriately!!

"So does it have anything to do with my pattern?"

Everything to do with it - I suspect!

September 21, 2004
8:30 pm
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workinonit
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Tez, if you don't mind I'd like to say f*** you for validating me... I am practically hysterical now

Damn it.

Ok Going to have a cigarette and calm down

Calmer...you said "This is the signpost that points to further insights into your emotions that are driving you towards the straightjacketed men"

What do I do about this Tez? I am trying but it sucks big time!!!! I recently have a guy calling me that scares me. Not because of the distance but because of the closeness. You see, my first husband was totally up my butt. He was the father I wanted at the time ( 19 years old ) and when I got away I never wanted to go back again. Since then, I have only attracted straight jacket guys. I think this experience colored me as much as my father did because they were about the same time period in my life...you know same amount of time..

Jeez, I feel like a frikkin child right now...crying and not able to handle my emotions or even speak like an adult for God's sake!! What the hell is going on with me?

I want to date this guy and see if I can handle myself.. I want to say right off the bat I am not ready for a relationship. I want him to know I am just dating. But, I want an interactive relationship that is about being there for each other and understanding of the needs of each other. Is that too much to ask? Am I going crazy?

I guess it's what you say. I am finally beginning to see the emotional interactions that have led me to this point in my relational situations. I want so badly to be whole ebnough to attract the right man into my life. i know I have so much to offer,(crying hard again) I know I am a good woman with carnal desires and home desires and an ability to love unconditionally. Do I need to love me unconditionally first? Enough to ex[plore my unresearched horizons?

Oh God, I need this feedback right now and if there is nothing else I remember to say to any one who cares to respond....Thank you so much. My heart is bleeding right now and I think it is time....

Tez, one more thing.. you said, "My guess is that you seek out men that are templates of your father and then you try to change them into the caring person that you wanted your father to be. Unfortunately your father wasn't emotionally available to you - was he."

No he wasn't (crying hard again) I hate you for knowing it because I don't know how to understand it let alone admit it to anyone. My father is dead now.. He was a fun guy but not there when it was important. I don't know what to do about these feelings. How do I go about changing this pattern? Please don't think I really hate you. I don't I am just so bewildered and dysfunctional at this moment.

Allow me to say...your thoughts are always welcomed to me.

September 21, 2004
9:44 pm
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Oh gosh workin! You know I feel the burning pain in your heart right now, don't you?

When you read my thread you said you were crying for me for breaking through all this before you guys, but you also said "then I wonder why else I may be crying, I don't know yet but think you may be helping me too."

You mentioned after that that you were thinking about your father but felt that maybe you weren't ready yet...maybe you are? 🙂

I feel what's in your heart and I know how badly you don't want to feel it. But...you seem like you're right on the edge of something big for yourself if you're willing to let it happen.

I love you workin.

I'm here for you.

You are in my thoughts and prayers tonight.

(((((Workin)))))

Much love,

lam

September 21, 2004
10:27 pm
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I'll be silently respectful....

Sunny

September 22, 2004
2:20 pm
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workinonit
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I am processing today but must admit I made another mistake last night. I am so-o seeing my pattern now. Hate self, punish, have cheap sex.

I want this to stop. I want control of myself and normalcy in my life. I called my counselor to set an appointment. Waiting on the call.

Thanks so much for your support friends. I love you all.

Ok Tez, try this one then....The first 19 years of my life I spent with a man ( my dad ) who was emotionally unavailable. Then I marry a man who is nothing but available to me. So much so that if he didn't know every thought in my head it drove him nuts which I suppose has driven me to this point in my life. crazy.

I told you I think I was replacing something fatherlike and it took 20 years to grow away from that. Now, I am afraid of that template. I am afraid I am not strong enough to break away again.

I am going out with a nice guy tonight. Not emotionally unavailable. More like the other template. I am scared but not fearing him at all. I think this is something I need to explore because the other template is too draining and leads me to treat myself badly. I would like to think at this point I am strong enough to stand up for myself and not be controlled by a person again. Who knows? But, I can't continue to live my life fearing this. I figure one of two things should happen. Either I will respond thoughtfully and according to my own boundaries or I will quit this whole damn thing and be come a nun. Options.

I want to thank you again for the insight you are giving me and apologize for being angry. It wasn't at you it was at the concept I had to wrap my head around. Still wrapping and still needing your help.

Workin

September 22, 2004
6:04 pm
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Workinonit.

You have no need to "apologize for being angry". I guess that you fear that I might take offence. Well ... for me to take offence, I would have to feel threatened in some way. If that happens, I usually find a quiet spot and spend sometime reflecting upon the nature of that threat. I generally find that the source is an emotional memory of fear of rejection that I experienced long ago when rejection meant death.

We fear rejection as infants and children because of our evolutional inheritance. When the infant of a neanderthal woman was rejected, if he or she didn't feel great fear and scream out in response to that fear to awaken his or her mother's maternal instincts, then he or she was abandoned and died. As a consequence of natural selection, only those infants with the genes to feel great fear of abandonment when rejected, lived to reproduce. Thus we are the success stories of evolution, therein carrying the genes that make us very fearful - as infants - of being abandoned.

However just having this genetic inheritance doesn't imply that as adults, all people fear abandonment to the same extent!! To activate this gene, an emotional memory of abandonment as an infant is required for an adult to be sensitive to rejection by other adults.

To the extent that we experience real or imagined abandonment as a child, to that extent we will be sensitized to rejection fear as an adult. Thus as an adult when we experience the pain of rejection, it is unconsciously the fear of death that we felt as a child that we re-feel and re-live in the present. That's why it is so painful. We feel threaten by death but don't recognize it. Even someone finding fault in us can trigger the fear of rejection.

What has this to do with your seeking your 'father/mother template' in a lover? Well... everything.

Your emotional need to have a caring emotionally available man may be driven by events that trigger off emotional memories of your father not being emotionally available to you - in other words rejecting you, not validating you as a worthwhile, valuable person. Since worthless neanderthals were abondoned, the threat of abandonment underlies the fear of rejection of a primary caregiver.

One such a trigger event may be your recognition of your father/mother template in a man who attracts you. As soon as you give out unconscious body language messages in that regard, these men may respond. Thus it may seem to you that all men available to you are emotionally straightjacketed. Of coures it is you that are unconsciously doing the template biassed selecting of a small subset of all available men.

We all seek fear relief in many ways. In earliest infancy we sought fear relief in the arms of a caring mom and dad. Many of us unconsciously do the same thing as adults. Only we seek mom and dad in partners who both carry and in whom we project our own individual 'mom/dad template'.

The problem comes when we mistake seeking fear relief from another for 'love'.

When a relationship with such a person is destructive, as it always will be if we are always seeking out a dysfunctional person, we are on a hiding to nowhere. For those raised by dysfunctional parents, hope lies in attaining intimate knowledge of our emotional and cognitive self and the patterns of interaction between same. We can then learn how to nurture ourselves. We are then free to have a relationship based upon 'loving sharing' as opposed to self-focussed emotional needs fulfilment.

When relationships are based on self-centered need fulfilment such relationships are simply businesses wherein the stock in trade is exchange of behaviors that promises to satisfy infant derived emotional needs - but never does for long. Such exchanges usually result in the dissatisfaction of either one or both partners with the result of one or both partners feeling cheated!! "I paid my dues, I bore him kids, gave him sex when I didn't want it myself, I clean his house, listen to his shit but the bastard won't ..." Does it sound familiar?

September 22, 2004
9:51 pm
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Wow I can so relate to entirley to much here..

Tez I really like your insight.

Workin ((((((HUGS))))))) I know this hurts but like you said your heart is bleeding and it's time.. Sweetie I wish I could hug you.. Yet I don't want to take your pain away not today. What you are going threw is going to help change the way things have been in your life. Without the pain there would be no growth.. I love you and my heart is bleeding with you sweetie..

September 23, 2004
3:12 pm
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So the highest ideal for a relationship is one wherein both parties are completely independent of one another and there is no such thing as emotional bartering. Is this your premise, Tez? I'm kinda having a hard time with that.

Marriage was, historically, a financial agreement between two parties (the father and the husband, the wife was the chattel). In many other cultures, marriage is not about love, it's a partnership that is popular because it is convenient. Easier to raise children, easier to split the labor of running a household.

All that aside, in my mother's culture, for instance, romantic love is idealized in literature and plays and operas, but it's not really something that children are raised to expect.

This is an extremely western concept - seeking personal fulfillment through relationships.

It's hard for me to stomach the "you're looking for your dada" thing, because I am extremely close with my dad. He is possibly the best father I know. And I'm not just sayin' that because he's my dad, but because he was retired by the time I was born, and never raised his voice or laid a hand on me. He made me breakfast every morning and we would chit chat while I ate and he packed my lunch. He drove me to and from school and my activities and taught me how to drive. I have so many wonderful memories of my dear old da'. He was a functional alcoholic but was never in his cups until late at night.

In all honesty - I usually make it clear to most guys that they can't measure up to dad. He was a highly decorated career navy man, he devoted his life and his health to his family and his country. He isn't crippled by smarmy sentimentality, he never cries about being a victim, he is a self-educated educated philosopher and thinker, he is the rock that holds my family of variously insane women together. They simply don't make men like that any more. I think they stopped making those guys around 1940. Har har har. Maybe I idealize dad too much. haha. I know I'll be completely devestated when he dies. He is the one thing I am sure about in this crazy world.

My mom was a complete nutcase and I still have rage and resentment at her. As a result I have huge problems with women and cannot sustain friendships with them hardly at all, and I burn bridges with them.

My first romantic relationship was with a woman, and it turned out disastrously because of my mommy issues.

But every one of my male ex's is completely different. I have no discernable pattern. There was the loser bartender, the controlling law student, the high school dropout stoner painter, the ecstasy-popping chef, my darling pot-growing exhusband, the coke-addicted exconvict, and finally my oldest and dearest bestfriend.

I'm not sure about the emotional straight jacket, either. Because I always start out feeling intesely. I am the type that falls head over heels in love. But after I get f*cked over so many times I stop caring. That was something I learned from mum. She taught me how to turn off my feelings.

I just don't expect anything from relationships anymore. People are human. We are all supremely f*cked up, and the only ones who seem to have it together are celibate buddhist monks, so there you go - they don't even let women LIVE near them. The best you can hope for is a companion whose idiosynchrasies you can mostly tolerate, pounctuated by moments of bliss.

September 23, 2004
6:39 pm
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Cici.

You asked the question:

"So the highest ideal for a relationship is one wherein both parties are completely independent of one another and there is no such thing as emotional bartering. Is this your premise, Tez?"

In an ideal relationship - not that one exists - love for each other would be expressed in a totally unconditional manner. No bartering for emotional needs to be met would ever take place in such an ideal relationship. Two insightful partners would express their delight and appreciation for each spontaneously without being manipulated in any way. Emotional needs would be met, joys and sorrows shared without any sense of bartering or coercion by either party.

Such an ideal relationship would require two well adjusted, intrinsically secure partners in the first place. Consequently the emotional security needs of both parties would be small. At best we humans can but aim at such an ideal.

Meantime, in any less than ideal relationship, self-nurture is by far the most reliable means of meeting one's emotional security needs. It is when we seek fear relief from our relationships with others that we set ourselves up for further suffering.

" ... the only ones who seem to have it together are celibate buddhist monks, so there you go - they don't even let women LIVE near them."

I'm sure that the Buddhist monks and nuns would understand my statements above only too well. Breaking all attachments to people places and things is their aim. Reducing their emotional cravings such as the desire to be loved by a partner and for sex is part of the monastic life. However, the Buddhist monks and nuns that I have met do not advocate the monastic live as the only way to live. In fact they point out that many lay persons throughout history have attained enlightenment just as well without taking on the robes.

Compassion for others, coupled with wisdom, is the way, is it not? The Buddhadharma is the monk and nun's self-nurture tool - until even that raft has to be abandoned when non-self, impermanence and nirvana are totally realized.

Yet compassionate interbeing and generous sharing in a loving relationship would certainly be condoned by any genuine Buddhist - as opposed to one based upon emotional and manipulative bartering for the fulfilment one's own perceived needs.

And you said:

" I'm kinda having a hard time with that."

Well ... It saddens me to hear that; but such is the nature of samsara.

September 23, 2004
10:05 pm
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Tez, I've had to read and reread this last passage you wrote to me. I am still processing.

On the other hand, I want to share some thoughts. Last night I went out with a guy. I had a subtle feeling of uncertainty about this but decided I was strong enough to meet this challenge. I felt he was like my first ex the controlling/smotherer.

I came out of this night feeling very empowered and I am the one who empowered myself!! I slowly started to understand that, I was seeing the signs this time. I actually called him on a few things he said. ( I was polite) So I can see some growth and progress.

Now, the need to examine the second type (alter ego to the first) is apparent. Aloof, loner, lets everyone come to them, seemingly in control but usually hiding from pain. I, of course, think I can help this person and try harder than ever. This, Tez, I think, is my father. Fun, funny, social, hard worker, but, not involved with us kids. He would work on projects all alone and never invite us to learn or God forbid, participate. He was more of a friend than he was a father.

Tez, you said, "The problem comes when we mistake seeking fear relief from another for 'love'.

Are you talking about feeling secure? I know that one of my bigger dilemmas was always needing to feel secure. The one thing I have done is make myself feel more secure but, underneath it all I still crave some of this. I know my first was totally this feeling. With my second, I learned to do so much for myself that now, the caretaker is not necessary. I want to do for myself. I hope I will not fall prey to this master manipulater again.

I see what you are saying about self-centered need relationships. In fact, I believe this is where the "image" comes into [play when two people first meet. If our intentions were completely unconditional, there would be no need to pretend we never fart or burp! At least we have nirvana to look forward to!!!

September 24, 2004
8:38 pm
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Workinonit.

You said:

"I came out of this night feeling very empowered and I am the one who empowered myself!! I slowly started to understand that, I was seeing the signs this time. I actually called him on a few things he said. ( I was polite) So I can see some growth and progress."

Great stuff ... good for you. When we largely meet our own emotional security needs we are empowered to interact with others without the vulnerability that comes from fear of rejection. We are free to 'give' with being preoccupied with 'getting'. This is indeed a sign of much progress in you.

You asked:

"... Are you talking about feeling secure?"

Yes. Certain people of the opposite sex have that certain 'something' that puts us at ease in their company.

When we have sex with certain special people we feel jubilant, wonderful, the world is our oyster, whilst with others we can feel nothing. The emotions of ecstacy that we are experience in the early stages of a romance can become a source of addiction - like a carrot on a stick. The lack of a 'fix' from Mr. or Ms. 'Template' (or equally Mr. or Ms.'Non-Template') can lead to much discontent in a relationship.

Often people have difficulty identifying exactly what is the need that is not being met by their partner. You occasionally hear statements like "He is not meeting my emotional needs". Often the woman who makes a statement such as this, is living in an adequate home with all her physical needs being met. So what is this emotional need of which she speaks. Generally it is that she doesn't 'feel loved'. But what is this feeling of being loved all about?? It seems to me to be a feeling that we are cared about by a caring person who will be there for us no matter what. In the end, I think it is about not having emotional memories of abandonment retriggered and having feelings of ready availability of nurture from another. This is childhood programmed nurture needs being reactivated in adult life. Unless we meet these needs in ourselves then we are driven to get them met by another. This is when we become vulnerable in a relationship.

The emotional bartering starts when we seek to have our emotional needs to feel loved met by our partners. I'm not saying that it is 'wrong' to want to be loved. What I am saying is that seeking love from a partner - as opposed to seeking to give it - is a minefield wherein we may well step on a mine in the form of a 'rejection and abondonment trigger' every so often. It makes us and our partners vulnerable. Our partners often have no idea what they have done to trigger of our emotional downer in us. They often respond most inappropriately, therein exacerbating the problem. They either fight, run, immobilize or appease - all unproductive, primitive fear responses.

September 24, 2004
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Workinonit

Whoops!! In para 2, "We are free to 'give' with being preoccupied with 'getting'" should read:-

"We are free to 'give' withOUT being preoccupied with 'getting'."

September 25, 2004
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Tez, Ha, I caught that one and knew what you meant. One for me!! ( Sorry, just giving myself a bit of validation!)

It's funny how you talk about something I start thinking about, not long before I read your posts.

You said, "But what is this feeling of being loved all about?? It seems to me to be a feeling that we are cared about by a caring person who will be there for us no matter what. In the end, I think it is about not having emotional memories of abandonment retriggered and having feelings of ready availability of nurture from another. This is childhood programmed nurture needs being reactivated in adult life. Unless we meet these needs in ourselves then we are driven to get them met by another. This is when we become vulnerable in a relationship."

These thoughts have been playing around in my mind. Getting them out into conversation tends to make sense of what is left after I do a bit of weeding.

After my recent breakup, I realized the only path for me at that moment was self study. Big or small, it didn't matter because the alternative was self-destrution. I did that before and decided I didn't like it.

My recent ex( the unavailable father template) would not have been nurturing in any way and I saw that I needed to be able to do what I expected from him. Yes, I said expected! That is another point I have come to. Expectations will kill the relationship every time. Boundaries are totally different. They are in place so that the other half understands just how far they can go before the first half changes their minds. So, I think when I feel something for someone, the last thing I should do is the pretend game. Women are worse than men about it at least women like I was. Now though, when I need to address a problem I have to do it right away. Otherwise, I am not being good to myself and living under the false illusion (redundant) that the other persons wants and needs are more important than my own.

So, the last guy I went out with is like the first husband template. I saw these signs and yet chose to try it. I was right. He does have control issues. Looking at it closer, everytime he stated he wanted to do things for me, I feel he was just trying to make himself look good. Mostly I think that because he was insistant in a troubled sort of way. RED FLAG!

Does this become the stalker pattern? Is this the sort of person who tries to run everything in my life? I think so. Do I give it another chance? Well, even though I enjoyed having sex with him, it was just that. Sex. I don't think about him and want to be around him in fact, he kind of scares me.

We were together Wednesday night. He called four times Thursday stating he didn't want me to think he was going to be calling all the time. He wasn't going to try to get together all the time. I said, Great! Tonight, (Friday night)he called my cell. I was actually starting to think about him and thought I may call tomorrow (Saturday) but, now I will not. I think I should tell him I do not want to see him that way. I am tempted to ask you what you think but no. I need to make this decision for myself.

I saw my counselor tonight. He says, wow, you've really disected this. LOL Yeah, thanks to a little help from my friends. But, I am really seeing the changes in myself and Tez, I am thrilled to be forward! You have been a huge help and I hope you don't mind if I keep this happening.

September 25, 2004
6:46 pm
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Workinonit.

You wrote:

"Now though, when I need to address a problem I have to do it right away. "

Yes, yes ... unaddressed problems do not simply go away; they seem to accumulate until the baggage gets to heavy to carry and something has got to give way.

And you followed up with:

"Otherwise, I am not being good to myself and living under the false illusion (redundant) that the other persons wants and needs are more important than my own."

This is good that you see this. You have made a very interesting observation. Many people, if not most of the human race, seem to think that they are being selfless and self-sacrificing when they think that their partner's "wants and needs are more important than [their] own." In fact I strongly suspect that the true motive is very self-centered and emotionally driven. I suspect that unconsciously people who think this way are wanting to meet the needs of their partner in order to get the love that they secretly or otherwise crave. It is another form of bartering that comes from thinking that they are unworthy of being loved unless they 'earn' it by meeting their partner's needs first. Of course when they do meet their partner's needs and the expected return of love isn't forthcoming then resentments, anger depression, and relationship breakups, etc sooner or later follow.

Further, you said:

"Well, even though I enjoyed having sex with him, it was just that. Sex. I don't think about him and want to be around him in fact, he kind of scares me. "

Thich Nhat Hanh, the Vietnamese Buddhist master, says that to have sex without committment to the sexual partner leads to suffering for one or both partners. For this reason he considers it inappropriate behavior.

From my perspective, the problem with uncommitted sex is that bonding often takes place unconsciously. By the time our incompatibility with our partner becomes too 'prickly' to tolerate, we are oftentimes emotionally 'hooked'. Even though we 'want out' of the relationship, dissatisfaction, if not downright emotional pain, often comes after separation takes place. Becoming good friends, with the inherent commitments that entails before having sex, is a sound principle, upon which to base a sexual relationship. I know that many people harden themselves and straightjacket their emotions to the point that they seem to be able to leapfrog from partner to partner with immunity from pain. But the pricetag is the straight jacket itself which ultimately brings emotional pain sooner or later for themselves and/or others.

September 26, 2004
10:44 pm
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workinonit
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Yo Tez, how right on you are!!!

You said, "In fact I strongly suspect that the true motive is very self-centered and emotionally driven. I suspect that unconsciously people who think this way are wanting to meet the needs of their partner in order to get the love that they secretly or otherwise crave."

This was exactly my thought with this last encounter. He was all about my needs and I was feeling, oh no you are not. This is so you can feel you have the upper hand by creating a feeling of need for me. This is so you will feel good about yourself.

As far as cheap sex? This is normally not my style but I found it interesting that the experience came on the heals of the experince I had last week where the tables were turned. I really need to be upfront with the second person and thank him for the insight he provided. I found his neediness so sad and yet so unappealing that I thought, I never want to feel I was this way toward someone.

Expectations do not belong in relationships. Being grounded in ourselves seems to allow us to give and not for the sake of receiving.

You also said, " Many people, if not most of the human race, seem to think that they are being selfless and self-sacrificing when they think that their partner's "wants and needs are more important than [their] own."

I believe this insight came from my experience with my most recent ex. Observing and agonizing over his self-centered actions forced me to accept him as he is and to realize accepting it did not mean I had to live with it. I just spoke to him tonight. I am amazed at the feelings I have and the feelings I don't have. A far cry from 5 months ago. In fact, not a cry at all!!!

I agree with you about the bonding after sex with someone. It happens to me and I know it happened to this guy. Unfortunately, I did not feel the same. As I said, the experience has provided growth and I have no desire to be out in that way right now. A very calming influence for a manic person as I can be.

Thank you for your kind words and know that you are a source of encouragement.

September 28, 2004
11:25 am
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Cici
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Maybe you took me the wrong way. I wasn't saying that the monastic life was ideal. I was saying that celibate people probably have it the most together, because if you are working from a place of balance and equanimity, why would you feel the need to "be" with anyone?

Where does the impulse to partner yourself with another person come from, if not from the effort to satisfy some need/want/fear?

I have never understood this. what is the purpose of the romantic relationship beyond procreation?

September 28, 2004
5:53 pm
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Cici.
"... because if you are working from a place of balance and equanimity, why would you feel the need to "be" with anyone?"

That's pricely my point - one wouldn't feel such a need at all.

But albeit not needing to be with anyone, one might choose to share his or her joy of living with another out of a wondrous and generous heart. The joy of sex may be just one part of that process of sharing that can be expressed in a committed, loving, romantic relationship - as opposed to a needy, grasping, bartering one.

September 29, 2004
8:11 pm
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workinonit
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whoa guys, I am hearing you both but, I need what I need and really, unless I am sharing and asking for opinions, it's none of anyones business. No defensiveness here just accepting me for me.

I know I have things to work out but Rome wasn't built in a day!

At least give me a few weeks!!!

Although, what you both say does make me think so continue on my friends.....

September 29, 2004
8:20 pm
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Well Tez...Have I offended? I wonder if my last conversation about my encounters has put you off. I sure hope not but you are strangely silent........

October 1, 2004
1:30 pm
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Cici
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sex and sexuality is so strange. i mean, if sex involved rhythmically dticking your fingers into each others noses, we would do that.

it's probably because of my past history with rape that makes me think this, but i always think sex is just sex. it's a physical act that involves physical gratification as a reinforcer to make us reproduce more. the spiritual context is what we make of it. but i personally have a strong tendency to separate the two. sex and love, you can always have one without the other. but you don't need both to make it work either.

i keep stressing this to my older friends and my sisters - younger people today have a very different attitude towards sex than older people do. it's so epidemic that I would venture to call it evidence of social evolution (and evolution doesn't imply that it's necessarily getting better, per se, just different than before).

Like my bestfriend, who I have had sex with (we were bestfriends for over 6 years before we ever did anything)...but neither of us wanted to be in a relationship with the other. We get along but if we were involved romantically everything would get screwed up. But we still talk every day and as far as I can tell there weren't any negative repurcussion from casual sex with my friend.

See here's the thing - I grew up being exposed to very different concepts of sexuality. I mean, I remember seeing a movie when I was about 8 called "casual sex"!

I believe that people who came of age in earlier times that were more sexually repressive simply have a negative impression of casual sex ingrained into their psyches.

It's just different when you grow up and people are shoving condoms in your face when you're 11 and telling you to just have safe sex if you have sex....and I know I know, you'll point out that i am merely subject to the delusions of my own mind and that the truth is that my impression of things is based on ignorance and fear. Well, everyone is, I think, lately.

And Siddhartha did say you shouldn't believe something just because someone else tells you it's true. you should believe because, based on your own investigations and understanding, you have experienced its validity.

It's just different outlooks on the same situation. I seriously think some people simply never developed an internalized understanding of the subterranean emotional context of sexuality.

Either through necessity (sexual abuse and molestation victims) or choice, I think some people condition themselves to separate the emotional context of the physical encounter. Seriously, sometimes I have an itch. I want it scratched. But I don't want to wake up next to anyone. I want to sleep by myself! So I kick 'em out around 4am.

I was also raised with a different attitude than most westerners. My mom said that marrying for love is a mistake sure to cause pain. Marry a man who is good to his family, who will be a good provider and a good partner and friend, who will make pretty babies.

As far as I can tell romantic love was invented in the 17th century in poetry, but it was a luxury few could afford.

I just feel like everyone is brainwashed about this love rigamarole. Well most everyone anyways. I've never personally been witness to a "successful" relationship. Or a healthy one. I don't think they really exist, and I think the people who claim to be in one are just as delusional as I am.

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