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How are you army?
January 8, 2007
6:09 pm
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armyleo
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gg - hey girl, how's the knee? I guess it's been about a week since the 2nd surgery...do you feel an improvement?

Lovinglife - I have missed you and your posts very much!!! I've also missed you on the adventures. Although not many since you and Jen have taken a sort of haitus. I hope you are doing good... before you left, things were getting a bit rough at home.

Free - do I think things will ever change?

I've never had anyone ask me tough questions, or questions like this...I guess I've always tried to believe everything was good, happy whatever...

Free in my little girls mind, I want things to change, I want things to change to my idea of a family, my idea of a husband, my idea of a dad...I've tried to "manipulate" -although I would have never seen this in me until 2 months ago when I came here - the situation to fit, my thinking and my ways.

I've tried changing it for almost 20 years...I feel if I let go of this and say no, then all my dreams will be shattered, my 20 years will be shattered and gone, I'll be no-one, I'll be a failure...

Free, I'm scared to be alone, I'm afraid of not being loved...I'm afraid I won't be able to make it, I'm afraid, it will be worse if I leave...

I'm so damned confused...And then with him possibly deploying somewhere within the next 3 months, I can't abandon him...

Mamacin - you always seem to have the right words to say...

As for the book, I started writing, something on this... I want to do this, and want to read this...I guess I've been putting it off, scared to find, bad stuff about me. But I guess I have to "do" something. Small steps maybe it will help me...

January 8, 2007
6:33 pm
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ggfred4
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Hi army, I think the 2nd surgery helped. My p.t. session went better today and I felt that I had progressed...thanks for asking...

Yesterday, I was upset when mich ended the sisterhood thread...I felt like I was grieving a death of sorts and did not understand my feelings...doing better today...

Take care sweet girl and update when you can...gg

January 8, 2007
6:40 pm
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free
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Yeah, I know army.

But you didn't answer the question.

do you think things will ever change?

hugs

free

January 8, 2007
6:47 pm
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bevdee
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Army,

My guess is that even if you kept the house military clean, he would find something else to find fault with.

January 8, 2007
8:25 pm
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armyleo
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Free, I guess I'm realizing, that he has always been like he is. Meaning, when we first started going out and were first married, he wasn't loving, and attentive. He has always been responsible, and I guess still is...Meaning, we have a roof over our head, kids have clothes, and we have food.

Lately things are financialy rough, but not because he doesn't work.

Maybe I have to tell myself, that he is not lovey dovey, meaning going out on romantic dinners, going with me to kid events, going to kid games, doing family things.

I don't know....free, I just can't answer in yes or no...

January 8, 2007
8:35 pm
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armyleo
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Free, deep down I want there to be a spark...

I can't let go....

Darn, your making me cry and think...It's okay, I can't always keep avoiding stuff.

January 8, 2007
8:40 pm
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armyleo
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Mamacin,

You keep saying "It's not my fault". But do you think, if I would have been different at the begining, if I would not have been "co-dependent", if I had been, a little stronger and little more assertive, been able to make my feelings know etc. Maybe somewhere along the lines, I messed up.

January 8, 2007
8:41 pm
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mamacinnamon
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Armyangel:

So glad to see you. Honey let's do the book, you tell me your schedule and like what time frame to read chapter 1 or so and then we'll talk about each chapter. If that is ok w/ you. I know the book seems scarry, but if you don't face your demons then how will you drive them out? Anyway, let me know how you want to work the book.

HI Free, GG, Bev, Hope ya'll are having a good night.

January 8, 2007
9:55 pm
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ggfred4
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Me too mama, Me too!!!

Army, I do not know for sure, but I don't think I was always this codependent now that I know what it is...I don't remember being that way in my early years of marriage. Did I give up somewhere? Did I change? Was I always leaning this way and got worse? I wonder too...but, we don't need to spend time on that now...we need to begin changing and recovering from this behavior...I would like to do the book with you and mama and anyone else...maybe a thread just for it???

Love you girls!!!

January 8, 2007
11:21 pm
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armyleo
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Okay gg, this is where I (we) will need your expertise. How do you think this will work best?

I think a seperate thread is good. But other than that, I don't know how to start.

I can do this anytime from 7:30pm on - west coast time. Either Wed, Thursday or Friday. I know it's late for the rest of you...or I can do it during my lunch from 12:30 - 1:30, on Wed or Thurs.

How about we start with the intro.

I have to be honest. I'm glad I'm doing this with others, because I'm not always good at finishing tasks. And this way I can read, and think and talk about what it means.

Thanks Mamacin for going out of your way to help.

gg thanks for volunteering to do this with me.

Hopefully we can get others to join in conv. also.

(((Hugs to all)))

ArmyAngel

January 9, 2007
1:24 am
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Hi army~

I, too, realized that things had always been the way they were. I covered things up, hid things, kept an image. It was the image I was in love with. The image was the dream.

When I finaly left, there were no more tears, and that bugged me. Confused me. I thought I'd lost the ability to feel.

Nope.

Those tears you cry army- they're from grief. You are grieving.

You know the answer to the question: will things ever change.

That's where the tears come from.

The dream is but that- a dream. And it will never be real. Not with this man. He gives what he can give you, and what he gives has nothing to do with your dreams. Has nothing to do with love, respect, and honor.

You are entitled to your dreams, and you are entitled to live the day they come true.

You are entitled to make them happen. And only you can.

hugs

free

January 9, 2007
2:09 am
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armyleo
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That's the thing, I can't make my dreams come true, I'm not strong enough.

I haven't been able to make that happen for 20 years.

I'm just confused. I'm a mess..., no I'm a hopeless mess...

Damn what a roller coaster of emotions...

January 9, 2007
2:59 am
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Yeah you are army.

It takes in incredibly strong person to live the way you are living. You're exhausted yet you keep going, and you've been this way for years. I was with my abuser for 11 years. There are things, army, that you can't see because you're "in the box." Those who have left to make their dreams come true came to point of trusting this statement. You just can't see some things kuz you're in the middle of the muck.

One of them is that being alone is actually preferable to being in an abusive relationship. Being alone, dirt poor and making it with assistance is better than the best day with an abuser.

If a man is walking down a street drunk at 3 a.m. with a thousand bucks in his wallet and somebody attacks him and steals his money, we don't blame the victim. We might say he made a poor decision, walking down the street drunk with bookoo-bucks ain't a wise decision, but we still seek out, arrest, and prosecute the robber for the crime. Same holds true for you army. Maybe you have made some unwise decisions, but that doesn't give your husband the right to attack and hurt you.

I knew my husband's buttons and pushed them periodically- it was almost a compulsion or something. I used this fact to blame myself for his violent episodes. It was song and dance routine. I'd do it, and feel horrible about myself afterwards. But check this out. I went through alot of counseling and started having healthy relationships. I'd learn these guys buttons, push them (like I said, it was a compulsion), but the response wasn't violence or retaliation. It was sadness. I could see it in their face, in their eyes, in their bodies. I'd hurt them, and instead of reacting with rage, they reacted by letting me know I'd hurt them and that it wasn't fair, and that I didn't have the right to do that.

Can we say "EYE-OPENER"?

You're in a cycle army. You push buttons, he pushes yours, you both react predictably- violence. You might not always be the victim army, though the two of you have defined that role. Many a woman shoots, stabs, sets on fire, blows up, the abuser. Many a woman becomes a perpetrator. Kuz the cycle demands a perpetrator and a victim, and the cycle is gonna have it that way. You two cannot break this cycle alone any more than a heroin addict can kick that habit alone. You can each break it only two ways. The first is that one of you leaves. The second is that both of you agree to counseling and this is very rare- the perptrator doesn't see himself as a perpetrator. Just like you don't see yourself as a victim army. It's like a strange role-reversal takes place. He sees himself as a victim, but he's the perpetrator. You see yourself as the perpetrator but you;re the victim. This is why you can't heal this, change this, alone.

to change this army, you gotta get into some counseling. I went to counseling at first to save my marriage (like I had that power all to myself ha!) I stayed for a very long time in counseling to insure I would not enter another abusive relationship kuz these guys- they draw me like bugs to a light.

I'm writing too much. Too much is too hard to absorb.

You're making big steps army. this healing process, it's a journey.

And, the devil known is better than the devil unknown.

That leap out of the box- it's pretty terrifying. so is birth or so I hear, and we survived that. You will survive the leap when you make it army, kuz surviving is your area of expertise. You've done it for 20 years now, and continue to do so this very moment.

free

January 9, 2007
12:31 pm
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ggfred4
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army, I know about not finishing tasks; I allow interruption, drama, etc. to take over and then I have no desire to finish...I have two coda books started and not finished as we speak.

You and mama pick a time and I will try...My friend and I tried this way online, well through email, but we can do it here too. We would each read a step, then comment on our feelings or quote sentences that were important to us....Then we moved on to the questions, where we would answer them on our own, and send each others' answers...then discuss...Now, we only got through steps one and two...Step 3 is very hard for me...

Just tell me how you would like to do things and I will try...

January 9, 2007
1:15 pm
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armyleo
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gg, how are you doing today?

I think with me and self help books, especially with written exercises, I tend to think about them for 5 min. and think I have the answer, but never write it down.

If anything I have learned from this site, it's I guess the more you write, the more, you unconsiously release what's in you.

I see that happening, then tend to pull back form posting, because it scares me to open up to see either my feelings or answers from me in black and white.

Mamacin, let me know what day is good for you...

Feeling a bit better today.

ArmyAngel

January 9, 2007
1:30 pm
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armyleo
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free, thanks for the gentle push to have me really look at the question : )

I tried to close my eyes and heart to it, but at some point I have to start being honest here.

Counseling, would not know where to go, nor what to say...still too scared to talk to someone in person. I guess, I'm also proud, I can see myself falling apart in a session and that would be horrible.

Christy

January 9, 2007
1:32 pm
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armyleo
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Oops!! oh well, 3 months was good, I've caught myself, a couple of times, and deleted before I sent...

January 9, 2007
5:50 pm
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ggfred4
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it is okay army,,,many have before you...

January 9, 2007
6:53 pm
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Army dear,

When my ex told me he was leaving me, I was devestated. I thought no one else would want me, that I was used goods, etc. After being told I was no good, couldn't please a man to save my life, an arrogant bitch, etc you name it, it took about a year of being alone and the guidance of a wonderful therapist to open my eyes to see that it was not me, but him who was bipolar and crazy. (no physical abuse, but 8 years of mental abuse)

There is was such a different air in the house after he left. So peaceful, so quiet.

Maybe I was too young and naive when I got married the 1st time. Maybe if I woulda opened my eyes more when we were dating. Maybe....It doesn't matter now. My experiences have brought me to where I am today, and made me a stronger person.

So, yes, it's hard to face these hard questions people ask, but I am here to tell you that it is just a change. When I look back, I can't believe everything I put up with asshole with. But when you are living in it, and brainwashed to belive it, it is all you know. Yes, it would be a change living without your husband, but isn't it worth it?

Oh, and I just got engaged this past Sunday to the new man I have been dating for almost 2 years, and he is quite happy with me the way I am!

Love to you, Ladyace

January 10, 2007
12:32 am
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armyleo
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Hi Ladyace,

I love that name every time I see it : )

Congratulations!! I'm glad you found someone, and he loves you for who you are.

Army

January 10, 2007
12:35 am
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armyleo
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Just sad here...

January 10, 2007
12:37 am
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ggfred4
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((((army))))

January 10, 2007
12:59 am
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mamacinnamon
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Free:

Very well and eliquently put (even if I can't spell). You described the whole process and sickness to the dottings of the i's and the crossings of the t's. Thank you.

GG and Armyangel: Hope all is well today for you each. Sorry, not been here as much. I'm in the midst of a really nasty fibro flair. Doc is seeing me 3x week for couple weeks w/ intense home therapy. Can't scream ouch loud enough. But, nothing new to me, just had been a long time between.

Date and Time... I'm open. GG that will leave the final say to you. Thurs or Fri 7:30 or later west coast time or Wed or Thurs 12:30 - 1:30 west coast time. That puts me 2 hours later and I'm cst. I'm ok w/ either. We'll leave that up to you. In the meantime I will pull my book tomorrow from the boxes in the basement and see about how to set up the study. Will have to be a bit open and kinda take it as we go also. In this one some things we'll fly thru and some things will need discussion a day or so, but whichever I want specially army to be able to bring forth her feelings and get them out on the table. Will post tomorrow on that.

As for now. I have decided to get to bed before hubby is home. Been jumpin in at midnight w/ his dinner in the microwave so I'm sleepin when he gets here. Can you believe I actually was in bed for 8 hours last night? Seems I really wake up hurtin when I sleep longer. Anyway, the bell tolls as we speak so I gotta jump off and run.

Talk tomorrow.

January 10, 2007
1:11 am
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(((army)))

free

January 10, 2007
1:39 am
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armyleo
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"...army to be able to bring forth her feelings and get them out on the table..."

I know you guys won't laugh, or make fun of me etc...

That was done to me in grade school, and I will never forget.

However, I myself, sometimes feel my feelings or what I'm thinking aren't important, or I shouldn't be feeling like that because I'm old etc. I never know the right feeling I should be feeling, or expressing....Does this make sense??? I guess I think too much about what the other person will think of me...

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