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Hey Tez, how are you?
September 19, 2005
4:56 pm
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on my way
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September 19, 2005
6:44 pm
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On my way.

Firing on all cylinders QMW.

And how are you?

Perhaps, I can pose a couple of questions of lesser importance.

Why has the Liberation Brew Threads Site turned into a support page like its sister the Support site?

Where have all the 'deep and meaningful' discussion threads gone?

September 19, 2005
6:55 pm
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eve
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Beause people come here to chat as well as for food for thought. Chatting on the general support board is discouraged, but it seems to be necessary to keep the talk flowing....

And sometimes new people are confused about what goes where.

September 19, 2005
9:19 pm
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Hi Tez,

So you are just around the corner and still here? Good!

I must apologize. You wrote back to me awhile back and I did not respond. You took the time to write and yet I neglected to answer and that was not right neighborly. But the fact is, I sometimes feel the lack of words to put into thought what is on my mind to respond. So I am telling you that yes, I do read here even tho I do not respond posting. Enough said about that. I miss you around as well.

Yep, confusing just what to post what where nowadays. Seems all scrambled up here.

Perhaps you or OMW can bring to light a subject matter that we can begin gently with? If not, will sit back in my chair with an iced latte' and read on!

~Sew~

September 20, 2005
3:25 pm
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Hi "TEX" from "QMW" 🙂

I'm ok, glad to see you.

Regarding your question, I think it happened when us "Christians" 🙂 were told to move it upstairs. And many of those who may have wanted to keep support downstairs, have left the site.

Maybe if you start another topic thread of interest?

I did see your reference to the Gospel of St. Thomas though in another thread here in Libs. Have not read those, but would like to add this to my list of things to read. I'm trying to remember wasn't it him who said, " If you look for Me (referring to God) in a building or place of worship you will not find Me. But if you look for me in a piece of wood or under a rock, there will you find Me." Does this sound familiar to you at all?

September 20, 2005
6:39 pm
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On my way.

"QMW ... TEX" - touche. 🙂

"77 Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there.""

Is this the passages to which you refer?

I think Jesus was refering to the Tathagata; i.e. that which underpins all 'things'.

I think that the problem Jesus had was that, like the Shakyamuni Buddha, he could not find words to describe ultimate truth!! These words did not exist then nor do they exist now. Both people could have made words up but then who, apart from themselves, would have experienced that of which they would have spoken?

Quantum physicists have exactly the same problem today. They resort to the multidimensional language of mathematics in order to do so. These physicists have great difficulty communicating their findings. Even then only a select few can grasp at any depth what these physicists try to describe to us lesser mortals about their 'scratchings at the surface' of ultimate reality.

To back up my beliefs about Christ, reiterated above, I quote again from the Gospel of St. Thomas, scholar's version:

"Jesus said, "I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended.""

I think that the "bubbling spring" was the best methaphor Jesus had for the Tathagata. Just like today few if any had plumbed the depths of what the word Tathagata represents, moi included.

Quantum physicists and astrophysicists are only today starting to scratch the surface of what both Christ and Shakyamuni Buddha had experienced at depth. Jesus had "drunk from the bubbling spring", as had the same Buddha referred to above, therein Jesus became 'the Christ'.

Jesus spent a lot of time with Thomas, which was noticed by others. I think this was because Thomas, as evidenced in his gospel, had sampled a 'droplet from the "bubbling spring". Jesus, I suspect, found that he could communicate with Thomas at a little more depth. But Thomas, when pestered to do so, couldn't pass on what he had been told by Christ. Just like today, the vast majority of people then had their heads up their proverbial posteriors.

I evidence this above belief of mine by the words from the Gospel of St. Thomas, scholar's version, below:

"... And he[Jesus] took him[Thomas], and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him. When Thomas came back to his friends they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"

Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you." "

Why is the Bible so 'shallow' today? Because any scriptures that either could not be understood by those in power at the Council of Nicea or scriptures that did not suit the political masters then, were relegated to the trash can. However some survived the "trash can" and we now have the remnants of these in the Nag Hammadi scrolls uncovered in 1945 in the desert at Nag Hammadi.

If you read the Gospel of St. Thomas with the mindset of a 'Christian' whose indoctrination has been in the hands of today's clergy, then it will seem like 'gobblygook'. However from a genuine Buddhist mindset it is highly significant and meaningful. Yet it was written by one of, if not the closest of Christ's confidents. Poor old blundering, simple minded, faithful Peter wrote nothing. Paul with his anal retentive personality and egocentric, pharisee indoctrinated mind, 'institutionalized' the church in Rome from whence it grew. No wonder we have the 'christianity' that we have today - no wonder!

To find just an inkling of what the real Christ knew, 'big shovels' and lots of hard work are required. Is it not better to take Christ's advice and to "drink directly from the bubbling spring"?

To find the way to the "bubbling spring" why not take a short cut and seek out the many 'signposts' and 'roadmaps' to be found in the prolific Buddhist sutras and their commentaries written by great masters who 'walked the walk'? Even then the 'signposts and roadmaps' have to be recognized as 'aids' and 'left behind', not 'idolized' and 'clung to' as was/is Shakyamuni Buddha and Christ by many.

September 20, 2005
6:52 pm
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Hi Sew n' Eve.

Sew... "You wrote back to me awhile back and I did not respond." I honestly don't recollect this. But even if I did, it would not be a problem for me.

I view my postings as just 'leaves' floating on a fast moving stream. Once I release them whither they goest, I know not. In this regard, I try to be carefree not careless.

No need for any apologies from you to me,ever - but maybe the reverse.

You suggested:

"Perhaps you or OMW can bring to light a subject matter that we can begin gently with?"

Did I 'do good' in my posting to OMW [not QMW] above? 🙂

Eve.

Thanks for your explanation.

September 20, 2005
7:52 pm
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Tez,

Thank you, you are a true gentleman!

As far as "TEX" and your response to OMW and the biblical insert, you did right fine there, partner!

So, I shall read on as I have no great comments nor educational knowledge to either support or to challenge what has been written!

As a matter of fact, I have been reading a bit and hearing services here and there at the temple, as my mother converted from Christianity to Jews for Jesus (Messianic Jewish) finally to Orthodox Jewish. Quite the mixed bag!

So the more I read and hear of both, the more I find many simularities and yet disimularities as I go along that is confusing, at the very least.

~Sew~

September 22, 2005
11:42 am
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Tez,
Yes that is the saying I was referring too. It says much, I really like it.
In the Bible Thomas is referred to as "Doubting Thomas", or maybe you knew this. He doubted seeing Jesus after the resurrection and asked if he could place his hand through the marks of the nails in Jesus's hands.

Regarding the other subjects in your post will have to consider them further for a bit.
omw

September 22, 2005
5:52 pm
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On my way.

You wrote:

"In the Bible Thomas is referred to as "Doubting Thomas", or maybe you knew this."

Yes I did know that. Thomas always held a strange attraction for me all throughout my 41 years as a Christian.

I think that it interesting that Thomas's 'fault'of doubting was publicized by other apostle(s) to the extent that it was recorded for posterity. Peter's denial of knowing Jesus and the cock crowing thrice was well publicized also. Was there some spiritual pride mixed up with some jealousy that ensured this publicity? Strange that both Peter and Thomas were not amongst the 'big four' - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Whilst Paul seemingly missed out he features well in the Pauline Letters. Poor old Pete barely rates a mention with two very short Letters, the 1st and the 2nd. Now Thomas on the other hand, Christ's favorite, .... zilch.

With a micrometer and the assumption of the equanimity of page thickness, I have just 'miked'the bible.

The books of the Jewish religion, contained in the bible, measured 25.25 millimetres in thickness.

The Writings of Matther, Mark, Luke and John including the Acts(A continuation of the Gospel according to Luke)measured together 3.53 millimetres.

Paul's Letters measured 1.97 millimetres.

Now comes the crunch. The Hebrew branch of the early Christian religion, headed by Jesus's brother and Peter featured very poorly with James scoring 0.18 millimetres of combined pages thickness and Peter,the Rock upon which Christ wanted to build his church, scoring only a paltry 0.065 millimetres.

What did Thomas, Christ's favorite, score? A big fat zero!

If one takes into account Paul's Pharisee heritage and his profound influence on the institutionalization of the Roman branch of the early Christian church, it is of little wonder that together the Hebrew scriptures plus the Pauline Letters feature with a pages thickness of 27.22 millimetres whilst Peter and James feature with a combined thickness of 0.245 millimetres - a ratio of 111.10 to 1.

This shows the undeniable bias towards Judaism - Body and blood sacrifices to Yehweh on Temple Altars - and the Pauline/Roman influence in determining what writings of the early church fathers went into what constitutes the Christian bible of today.

It is my firm belief that Christ would be shaking his head were he to walk the earth today. Thanks to Thomas, Christ's closest male confident, and to others, the archaelogical finds at Nag Hammadi give us at least at least a tiny glimpse of what the real Christ taught and believed.

September 30, 2005
2:08 pm
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Hi Tez,
On second thought, I think I will enjoy your other posts on Libs. 🙂

October 3, 2005
6:02 pm
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Tez,
Where would I find a copy of the Gospel of St. Thomas...any book store?

October 3, 2005
6:46 pm
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On my way.

A surf on the net on 'gospels + Thomas' will flood you with the various translations available. By making comparisons in cross-referencing them is a good way of getting closer to an unbiassed version of what Thomas the Doubter supposedly wrote. Even then, subjectivity is rife in this process.

Who knows, just interpreting what people write here is fraught with difficulties, let alone first translating and then interpreting the meanings from the translation of an ancient scriptural language and then composing text representing those meanings in the often ambiguous genre of today's English. The biblical writings, apart from the selectivity of Rome, also suffers from the same fate.

But ... having said that, from a Buddhist perspective, I find some of the words attributed to Thomas are very interesting.

October 3, 2005
7:42 pm
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Thanks, I believe I will find it intersting as well.

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