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Gospel of St Thomas
July 9, 2007
1:56 pm
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Tez,

This verse must be from Thomas. I didn't reference it just now, but I do not recognize it. I'll give it my best interpretation based on what it may mean. It is a bitt odd though.

"7. Yeshúa says: Blest be the lion which the human eats--and the lion shall become human. And accursed be the human which the lion eats--and the human shall become lion."

The lion may refer to the Lion of Judah, or Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is also THE Word. If man eats the Word of GOd, he will be blessed. Eating the Word means, studying it, meditatiing on it, making it a part of oneself in daily life and practice...digesting it as food.

'The lion shall become human, may refer to when Jesus Christ became a man here on earth.

'Annd accurse be the human that the lion eats"--- In the NT the lion is also referred to satan. It says, "He prowls around like a hungry lion waiting to devour whomever he can"... if a human allows this to happen to him then he is obviously cursed, devoured and is more likely to allow evil IN. If a human allows evil in, then he becomes like the lion...thus, as it says in this verse, "the human shall become lion".

So in conclusion, the first part of the verse may speak of Jesus Christ, and the second part refers to satan.

July 9, 2007
2:02 pm
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free,
In Thomas, Jesus does not have good things to say about women...whne in the Bible, he loves them, and they are honored in the OT as well.

I still think that 'someone' wrote these who was confused or wanted to begin their own religon.

TEZ,
I know NEW AGE only began recently, but I was referring to the concepts of 'enlightenment', 'self' and 'one's own power, by one's own power', has been around for ages.

July 9, 2007
2:11 pm
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Tez,

Also, 'the lion becomes human', could also refer to, how the lion, or JC being the Word of God, the Bible in this sense, as a human knows more of God, or the Word, (or the lion) it becomes a part of who he is, and the human actually becomes a vessel for the Word or the lion...as in speaking of a transformation of mind and spirit.

July 9, 2007
2:48 pm
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Tez, you said:

"You've got, in your bible, the shallow version of Christ's message that was promulgated by the shallow mindset of those who preached 'Pax Christi' but took up arms against their fellow Gnostic Christians wiping them out. Hmmmm!"

Well no one knows for sure who buried these, but it would be interesting to find out. I have lost track of most history, I desparately need to go back and review, so be patient with my time frames. Some things I do know for certain and others I am way out there on. There were some other verses in Thomas I could interpret, and then some I could not.

"Read Thomas's version of Christ's teachings and you might get a true perspective on the deeply reflective, contemplative, meditative and mystical mindset of JC, not the shallow Pauline version upon which modern Christianity is based."

Paul and his writings are not shallow. If anything they are a great example for anyone to follow and be encouraged by as we live in this evil place. I have always said that for God to get through to anyone, he isn't limited by what the Catholics did to the Bible. He is a bit more powerful than all that, and I'm sure he'll deal with them when he sees them perhaps! But I will take a longer look at Thomas and look at the possible mystical mindset of Jesus that you speak of. There is a connection of truth in all I believe, and then man jumbles it all up.

So you are saying that Jesus incorporated parts of Buddhism in his teachings, and actually may have studied it beofre he began his ministry?

And yes, many baby skeletons were found buried in the walls of the historical Catholic churches.

July 9, 2007
3:29 pm
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Dang OMW

I thought your understanding of this verse was pretty good.

OMW, Jesus saw men and women as equals. It is people who have interpreted his sayings to suit their purposes, namely to subordinate females. I see it done all the time, especially with the various Baptists. In Catholicism a woman can't be a priest. "Obey your husband." etc etc. In the Old Testament, there's instructions on selling a daughter into slavery. I'll see if I can find it.

There's no such thing as non-equal in the spiritual world. There's just "different." The spiritual world includes "heaven." Jesus knew this and tried to teach this, as focusing on our "place" amongst other humans keeps us from focusing on our "place" in the spiritual world. It keeps us bound.

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July 9, 2007
3:49 pm
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Exodus 217 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do."

I don't feel this is honoring women. i could go on and on about the OT- I see numerous cases where females are subordinated and/or oppressed.

In the NT however, and in the gnostic writings, Jesus tried to teach us about the illusion of equality. It's an illusion- it doesn't exist. There's no such thing as equal and non-equal, there just "is"

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July 9, 2007
4:35 pm
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Here's a site that illustrates the treating of women in the old testament.

http://www.religioustolerance......e_bibl.htm

free

July 9, 2007
5:51 pm
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Free,

You are right that some religions subordinate females for their own use. There is that cult in CO that allowed them to marry more than one wife...due to how they interpreted the Bible.

I like what you say here:

"There's no such thing as non-equal in the spiritual world. There's just "different." The spiritual world includes "heaven." Jesus knew this and tried to teach this, as focusing on our "place" amongst other humans keeps us from focusing on our "place" in the spiritual world. It keeps us bound." This is so true!!

I will take a look at your website reference.

July 10, 2007
5:34 pm
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Tez,
From what I see, the Gospel of St. Thomas, has many of the same in the NT by Jesus. The only variation I see is vs 114, about Mary, that portrays her in a derogatory light in the sense that she is being compared to males. It says this verse was added at a later date. It could have been for this reason alone that it was excluded. Also says Thomas was written at about 340 A.D. several years after Thomas and Jesus's life together, but still refers to the writer as being the same descipe Thomas, the 'twin' or 'didymus'. So who knows. But several of the verses, almost all I understood as I have seen them before. It could have been included right after John IMHO, except for that verse 114 about Mary having to become a male, I don't comprehend that one at all. Probably through the Catholics as well!!

I just don't see Jesus in the mystical sense in Thomas though. Please explain how it is that you do.

July 10, 2007
7:16 pm
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by the way I am not saying negative things about Catholics here, but merely speaking of why one verse may have made a difference as to why Thomas may not have been included.

July 10, 2007
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Never mind Tez, I see from a post of yours above:

17. Yeshúa says: I shall give to you what eye has not seen and what ear has not heard and what hand has not touched and what has not arisen in the mind of mankind.

This is also as the verse in Isaiah 64:4,:

4"For from of old no one has heard nor perceived by the ear, nor has the eye seen a God besides You, Who works and shows Himself active on behalf of him who [earnestly] waits for Him."

Yes, He is an enlightened sentient being, but who else have you ever known that had such a Pure Mind? Itwould have to be God. Who else could it be? No human has ever been this way.

July 10, 2007
11:24 pm
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What things did Jesus say about women in The Gospel of St Thomas that were bad? (It will be a little while before I read it, so forgive my ignorance).

Because he might have said the same things and included both sexes if he were speaking to an "audience" of both genders. Were women of mainstream society truly free to get out and follow a revolutionary spiritual leader? I think we may have a distorted image of the past. Weren't most of the people around Jesus men? Perhaps this was not his choosing, women did not exactly have the same rights to come and go as they pleased back in the day.

So I'm thinking, what sounds negative about women- is it just warnings or sermons about relations between men and women and how that can distract interfere with a spirtual fulfillment? Rather than a criticism of women alone?

You all have me curious now... so I will have to start reading...

-ella

July 10, 2007
11:39 pm
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Oh, I read a part of it and I'm not sure if I am on the right track, but it was about not being born of woman...

I liked this reader's explaination from online "Woman can be generally broken down to that which produces a body from within its body - the creative aspect of the self. The development of one's personality, knowledge of self/other, the worldly vision, etc., are fruits of this creative womb. Meditative practice is said to bring forth the experience of 'emptiness' which lies outside of the realm of interdependence where knowledge exists. It is to this emptiness that Jesus alludes."

I think that makes sense, and doesn't imply that women are lesser- as apparently Gnosticism professes a belief that dualities are of one (for lack of better explaination). I think it is saying that people do readily recognize the earthly - the birth from woman (literally and figuratively) but Jesus may be saying - but look at your father (the immiterial, the spiritual, the Higher Power). But both are part of the same thing, no?

July 10, 2007
11:41 pm
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Could we be projecting a negative connotation onto something that is NOT negative? Also, I noticed, several translations have differences that at first seem subtle... but definitely could influence one's interpretation of it.

July 11, 2007
12:02 pm
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mzrella,
Lot's of cultural stuff back then, and religious. Sometimes I think God did some things back then because the Israelites had no law but the law under the Egyptian Pharoah for so long. When they left, new laws needed to be in effect as they were pretty unruly, ungrateful, self-centered people, and angry people, most anyway. It is my belief that he had to show them how yucky they were by setting up a standard so far above them theat they would seek someone greater. When they couldn't they made their own idols, and then some stayed with God. He blesses the Israelites all the way through, and in the meantime that standard is more difficult. Then Jesus came to change all of that in the NT.

I like your point about him speaking to both audiences but in Thomas vs 114, he is speaking to the men about Mary. Said he would make her a male.

Then free has sighted some examples in Exodus, where women were not treated equally...but now we are, but it is intersting to go back and read and look at all of this.

I like you quote above ...very cool!

July 11, 2007
12:32 pm
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Codefication of a concept is such a bore.

July 11, 2007
12:35 pm
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HEY DARTH...good to see ya back!!!!

July 11, 2007
4:00 pm
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Hi Darth

Do you mean codification?

Not a bore- fascinating, when it has to do with this! 🙂

Verse 114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven

This verse is controversial. First of all, I think it's noteworthy that Jesus said YOU males, consequently not identifying Himself with the males in the debate.

more later, gotta run

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July 11, 2007
10:38 pm
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On my way-

It is my humble and mostly uneducated opinion, that much of what is in the bible is metaphor. Therefore if I read something where Jesus said he was going to take Mary and make her into a man- I would think the same as what I wrote above, that he meant to make her not only the things that are born and live on earth- but share with her the spiritual wisdom that would allow her enlightenment- to become one with God the father.

Now I am not a Christian, but those are how my beliefs would lead me to interpret that being said. I can hardly believe that it would have any negative connotation, about Mary, or any other woman.

Or maybe it's something far more earthly and simple. Perhaps what it means is that Jesus believed that he would want Mary to be free to live and worship as men do.

July 11, 2007
10:40 pm
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"for every woman who makes herself male will end unter the kingdom of heaven..."

Free-

Dissolving the illusion of dualities? Enlightenment... like what we were talking about in the Unitarian post perhaps?

-ella

July 11, 2007
10:41 pm
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I can't wait to read the whole Gospel. Right now I feel like one of those people who dissects a movie after they have only seen the trailer.

July 12, 2007
2:19 am
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Hi ella~

I like your version: "Dissolving the illusion of dualities" kuz it puts things in a nutshell. some think everything Jesus said was about enlightenment and he spoke in parables, metaphors, poetry. Some think He was the greatest gnostic to ever live. Some gnostics think he never was human. That one gets pretty thick for me though.

In regards to verse 114: Jewish mystics believe that man was originally one being (human) and then was divided into two (male/female), so this could be a reference to the restoration of both men and women into that state.

Jesus could also have been saying that the restoration has already occurred and that is why he could easily make her male so as to satisfy the males in the debate. In other words, there's no male and female in the spiritual world. Shattering that illusion leads to elightenment and the entrance into the "kingdom."

Also, I'm pretty sure that in ancient Jewish tradition only males were baptized. So if Jesus baptized Mary then she would become "male" and henceforth be eligible to enter the kingdom.

I really think it's most significant that Jesus said YOU MALES thereby excluding himself from them. I just don't know why.

ella, most gnostic "educations" are from reading, meditating, thinking, discussing. The fact that you're interested and drawn to this kind of spirituality makes your thoughts and opinions highly valuable to others on the path of seeking knowledge. Exposure to thoughts and opinions causes things to "click" and a certain satisfaction takes place, a calming sensation. It's fleeting though- ya just crave more understanding of something else that comes up. I've read and heard that people regard gnostics as thinking they know everything, have a special knowledge that others don't have. Well, that's just so far off from the fact. It's just about having an open mind and being willing to see things from different perspectives, about not making the brain take the "taught" path, but letting it take the instinctual one. Some gnostics describe their instinctual understanding as the "it's right on the tip of my toungue" feeling- and they just want to figure out what exactly it IS that's on the tip of thy tounge!

I think it's a lifetime quest, and a most worthy one.

So, no need to be humble. Be confident. I myself am fully confident that I don't know what the heck I'm talking about, but someday, I'm gonna figure it out! 🙂

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July 12, 2007
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this is great reading, ella and free I like what you have said here, makes sense.

God is male/female, and we are created in his image...in the senes that he created both...but i can't see how this applie to the verse...any thoughts?

July 13, 2007
7:09 pm
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On the 9-Jul-07 you wrote:

"Paul and his writings are not shallow."

I think they are both shallow and loaded with the Pauline Judeo-Christian party line.

But that's hardly surprising since the bible was put together by Pauline Rome with their highly selective choices from many scriptures; choices that left many less shallow and for them hard to understand scriptures out.

July 14, 2007
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Tez,

You may be right. Although I do believe that the Bible is the word of God, after having read Thomas, I don't think there was any reason to exclude it. And, I now beleive possibly that some of the books in the NT have possible been tampered with to fit that religion...as some scripture does not make sense, nor follow who JC is. From what I have learned recently, it has been a plan in the making for centuries though, and is still going on....

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