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Gospel of St Thomas
July 3, 2007
7:07 pm
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Please feel free to join in!

July 3, 2007
7:10 pm
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114) Simon Peter said to them, "Mary should leave us, for females are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "See, I am going to attract her to make her male so that she too might become a living spirit that resembles you males. For every female (element) that makes itself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

July 3, 2007
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Tez posted the following:

It's obvious misogyny isn't congruent with the rest of the gospel, in my opinion.

"114.Shimon Kefa says to them: Let Mariam depart from among us, for women are not worthy of the life. Yeshúa says: Behold, I shall lure her so that I make her male, in order that she herself shall become a living spirit like you males. For every female who becomes male shall enter the Sovereignty of the Heavens."

Another possible explanation is that Jesus may have been misrepresented. He may have been talking about powerfully seeing with non-dualistic, inner eye of wisdom for which no devisions or differentiations are real. In the days of Christ males were very dominant and powerful by comparison to women who were often reduced to chattel. Perhaps Christ was trying to use a power metaphor rather than speaking literally as it could appear. Otherwise the last verse is ireconcilible with the rest.

I keep an open mind regarding verse 114 because of the powerful insights contained in much of the rest

Other thoughts on this? I'm anxious to hear them

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July 3, 2007
7:20 pm
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This is a good one for discussion, too:

16) Jesus said, "People probably think that it is peace that I have come to impose upon the world. And they do not recognize that it is divisions that I have come to impose upon the earth - fire, sword, battle. Indeed, there will be five in a house. There will be three over two and two over three, parent over child and child over parent. And they will stand at rest by being solitaries."

Thoughts?

free

July 3, 2007
7:29 pm
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Huh?

Where are these verses coming from? I'm confused. What book?

July 3, 2007
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free

On the 3-Jul-07 you wrote:

"This is a good one for discussion, too:"

You were referring to Verse 16 quoted below for convenience and I agree.

"16) Jesus said, People probably think that it is peace that I have come to impose upon the world. And they do not recognize that it is divisions that I have come to impose upon the earth - fire, sword, battle. Indeed, there will be five in a house. There will be three over two and two over three, parent over child and child over parent. And they will stand at rest by being solitaries."

The interpretation that I have, which is essentially the same, states:

"16. Yeshúa says: People perhaps think that I have come to cast peace upon the world, and they do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth--fire, sword, war. For there shall be five in a house--three shall be against two and two against three, the father against the son and the son against the father. And they shall stand as solitaries."

Again I think that huge paradigm shifts are painful because they often alienate their way of thinking and seeing things from that of the masses. Divisions and misunderstandings between people form the basis of conflict. Conflict over religious beliefs is often the most violent, viz a viz 9/11. Christ's true message contained within this Gospel, but remarkedly absent from those included in the bible, is only understood through undergoing such a huge paradigm shift in 'thinking' and 'seeing'. Such people who go through these paradigm shifts "shall stand as solitaries," just as 'mystics' throughout history have so often done.

So far we have circled all around this paradigm shift. This is very different to having it. Without it Thomas's Gospel makes little sense.

July 3, 2007
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17. Yeshúa says: I shall give to you what eye has not seen and what ear has not heard and what hand has not touched and what has not arisen in the mind of mankind.

This gift sounds very much like the gift of Pure Mind; that is a mind that is devoid of all conditioning that has been caused by the sense organs of the body over the eons; that is, a mind that is devoid of all illusions that are continually arising, abiding and decaying.

I think that Jesus was a Mahabodhisattva, a great enlightened sentient being, not some God-man who Christians claim that he was.

July 3, 2007
8:15 pm
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Hi thewall

This is the gospel of St Thomas. It's not included in the Holy Bible. You can find translations of it online though.

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July 3, 2007
8:35 pm
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On verse 16: Jesus is saying that he did not come to bring peace to the world, but to individuals.

I disagree with your statement that Christ's tgrue message is not in the Bible. It is. But many have chosen to take Jesus words literally or interpret according to physical basis for knowledge, whereas Jesus taught through myths. The term "myth" doesn't mean "stories that are not true", but rather, that the truths embodied in these myths are of a different order from the dogmas of theology or the statements of philosophy.

anyhow.

Regarding verse 114: In this culture, men were primarily worthy, capable of great things so that male = worthy person. To understand better, re-read the verse replacing "male" with "worthy."

I think it's curious that Jesus uses the phrase, "resembling YOU males," essentially omitting himself from the comparison between Mary and the male disciples. That is, he wasn't identifying himself with the males in the debate.

free

July 3, 2007
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Tez you wrote:

"I think that Jesus was a Mahabodhisattva, a great enlightened sentient being, not some God-man who Christians claim that he was."

I don't think it matters. Why do you think it matters?

Verse 17: I agree with your understanding. The gift is knowledge, direction, a view into what lies beyond physical perceptions.

Now Tez, tell me how we have circled around the paradigm shift.

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July 4, 2007
2:31 am
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I feel like I'm dominating this thread.

That just bites.

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July 5, 2007
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I have a question: There is a 'Judas Thomas' and a 'Thomas'. Does anyone know which one wrote this book?

July 5, 2007
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Hi OMW

It's the Same person: Judas Thomas, Thomas, St. Thomas

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July 5, 2007
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Thanks free...

Have another question that I do not know the answer to:

Is this Judas Thomas the Judas who betrayed Jesus, or is it the skeptical Thomas who is mentioned in the gospels who when he saw Jesus after the resurection, he didn't believe it was Jesus until he placed his hands on Jesus' hands where the nails had been?

thanks...glad you know this stuff!! 🙂

July 5, 2007
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Hi OMW

I believe there's three Judes (Jude = Judas)that were all of the original 12 apostles.

There's Jude Iscariot- betrayer

Jude Thomas- St. Thomas, doubting Thomas who did like you said, and whose Gospel is the subject here. It's viewed as heretical.

Jude Thaddeus- St. Jude

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July 5, 2007
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free, thanks!

This is all fascinating (even to me), I have read Thomas but you have to wonder why it is such a different account of the gospels.

July 5, 2007
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Hi OMW

There is also a gospel of Mary Magdalene. Jesus had numerous followers.

There were many gospels written. Many were destroyed. People loved to write, especially the gnostics.

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July 6, 2007
1:21 am
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this site may interest you:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/.....agels.html

free

July 6, 2007
3:53 pm
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Appreciate it free, & will take a good look.

July 7, 2007
1:27 pm
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free,
I read from this site this morning. While reading the first couple of pages, I thought that it sounded like Buddhism or New Age religion, and then sure enough as I read further, the article said that perhaps it was, and that perhaps Buddhism and the enlightnement period orginated from some of these writings.

Maybe if Tez catches this thread, he knows more about Buddhism and he can clarify. 🙂

These papyrus writings totally contradict the character of Jesus as well, but of course it spoke mostly of the Gospel of St. Thomas. Again there are so many unknowns. Thomas is only mentioned twice in the NT as the "Twin"...and in the orginal Greek text he was called 'Didymus'...but who knows why, I don't. But in Matthew, Jesus clearly chose him as one of the orginal 12 desciples, and then he is mentioned in the Gospel of John when Jesus reappears after the resurrection. Thomas does not believe it is him until he placed his hands in the nail holes and also into Jesus's side form the sword wound. If Thomas really believed Jesus was who he said he was as did the other desciples after they saw himm appear, I can't imagine Thomas writing anything contradictory, especially after the first 2 chapters of Acts, where he imparted the Holy Spirit.,...yet on the other hand, even the best believers can be haunted by doubt, have greed for power, etc....who even knows if Thomas went his own way afterwards and started a new religion of sorts, and took Philip and others with him? See, no one knows. And no one can really say anything but what they believe themselves. Personally I believe that the cahracter of JC, God and the Holy Spirit cannot be contradicted.

This article was so interesting though....makes me want to go back and re-read the history of the church, and refresh my memory of how the catholics became involved.

July 7, 2007
3:08 pm
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Hi OMW

How do these writings totally contradict the character of Jesus? These are gnostic writings- mythical- "myth" not meaning "untrue", but that a lesson of truth lies within- like in much poetry.

I think Tez is MIA. He originally invited a discussion about this Gospel and then split. Boooger.

I love this stuff. I love hearing what other people think the verses mean.

free

July 7, 2007
8:42 pm
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On the 7-Jul-07 you wrote:

"free, I read from this site this morning. While reading the first couple of pages, I thought that it sounded like Buddhism or New Age religion, and then sure enough as I read further, the article said that perhaps it was, and that perhaps Buddhism and the enlightnement period orginated from some of these writings.

Maybe if Tez catches this thread, he knows more about Buddhism and he can clarify. :)"

"New age religion", as you call it, began less than 100 years ago.

On the other hand, the Buddha lived approximately 500 years before Christ was a twinkle in his father Joseph's eye.

Of course, I am presuming Mary his mother wasn't playing around and invented the 'virgin birth' story to avoid retribution. To avoid a similar retribution, Catholic nuns blamed the Incubus for inseminating them, when they fell pregnant as a result of insemination by the holy injection of the priest's and monk's sperm from consecrated and ordained penises.

Many believe with some foundation, that Christ between the ages of 16 and thirty wandered the lands in which Buddhism and Hinduism flourished. Some believe that Christ, being a Jew, simply wanted to bring compassion into the strict law permeating Jewish moral code of behavior. This some suggest came from his studies amongst the followers of these religions, Jainism included. This Buddhist influence is very evident in the Gospel of St. Thomas.

Then you wrote:

"Personally I believe that the cahracter of JC, God and the Holy Spirit cannot be contradicted."

I believe that your belief in your having the true perspective on the character of JC is based upon your blind faith that the only truth about JC is to be found in your Bible and nowhere else. That's partially the reason that I use the adjective "blind" to qualify the word faith above.

Since more than one scribe wrote each gospel in the bible, not one, and it is highly unlikely that the 'party line' from which they drew their material was any other than that of the shallow Christian Sect to which they belonged, it is little wonder that there are discrepancies between the biblical version of JC's teachings and those of Thomas, Judas, Phillip, and Mary. There were the Gnostic Christians, the Coptic Christians, Roman Christians following Paul and those following James. Of course the more powerful Christian sects annihilated the Gnostic sects by force of arms forcing them to bury their versions of JC's teachings for posterity. Hmmm!

You've got, in your bible, the shallow version of Christ's message that was promulgated by the shallow mindset of those who preached 'Pax Christi' but took up arms against their fellow Gnostic Christians wiping them out. Hmmmm!

Read Thomas's version of Christ's teachings and you might get a true perspective on the deeply reflective, contemplative, meditative and mystical mindset of JC, not the shallow Pauline version upon which modern Christianity is based.

July 7, 2007
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"7. Yeshúa says: Blest be the lion which the human eats--and the lion shall become human. And accursed be the human which the lion eats--and the human shall become lion."

This verse makes no sense from a modern Christian perspective.

OMW - kindly prove me wrong and take me down a peg or two by explaining what you think the above verse means.

If you can't then you may be able to see why the 'victorious' sects of early Christians discarded the Gospel of St Thomas. It was most probably gobble-de-gook to them. So they 'bell, book and candled' any one who saw the depth in these writings, declaring their teachings as an 'anathema' excommunicating and sometimes literally burning alive anyone who believed them - how very unchristian to say the least.

However, if Verse 7 above is viewed from a deeper Buddhist or even a Hindu perspective this verse is quite meaningful indeed.

July 7, 2007
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Free.

Me a booger? What ever a booger is. Someone who picks her nose I guess!

Anyway, some of us are more hard pressed for time than others.

I still love you anyway - even if you do think I'm a "booger". You can't help thinking that - I guess that I have done the odd bit of "boogie" mining in my day. But I washed my hands after each session. 🙂

July 8, 2007
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Hi Tez

On the booger issue: You're way off mark my friend.

How does one explain what a "booger" is? If you're called a "booger", you're being called a minor irritant, but in an endearing way. Does that make sense?

Your rendition of "booger" makes it not a funny thing to call somebody, but it really is. Ya killed it Tez.

Looking forward to hearing your take on this verse. don't know how much longer I can hold mine back.

Ilusions, Tez, this Gospel is about illusions.

free

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