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Goa ahead, defend Islam
January 17, 2007
11:24 pm
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Matteo
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free ~ if I were you, I wouldn't comment on rude statements because your posts are full of them, including in this very thread, which indeed is an attack on Islam.

Yes, I meant "elected".

By the way, would you please explan what "kuz" means?

January 17, 2007
11:35 pm
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Anonymous
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Matteo,

{I am perfectly capable of making an intelligent reply to your arguments, but I don't see any point in doing so.}

Maybe you are, but you chose to engage in name calling rather than appealing to intelligent discussion, as I was trying to do. That's why I said you were "apparently" unable to intelligently answer.

{You have a war criminal as a president, ellected twice and you are proud of it and defending him.}

"war criminal" is a value judgment, Matteo. Can you logically convince me that he is?

I'll tell you what I'm not proud of. That we twice elected a president who engaged in oral sex in the White House, groped numerous interns, lied repeatedly to the public, perjured himself in a court of law, got the IRS to investigate his political enemies, ruined the reputation of the staff in the White House travel office and instigated unwarranted criminal investigations against them because he wanted his buddies to have their jobs, solicited campaign contributions illegally, etc., etc. And yet he was never punished for what he did. When the Republicans tried to punish him by imipeachment, the Senate Democrats voted along party lines to exonerate him. He trashed the reputation of the presidency and nobody seemed to care. That's what I'm not proud of.

{I'm afraid that no amount of intelligent and convincing arguments will convince you. }

How do you know? You haven't tried making any.

Seeker

January 17, 2007
11:53 pm
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Matteo,

{including in this very thread, which indeed is an attack on Islam.}

I've noticed that whenever somebody says something critical of Islam, somebody else invariably accuses them of "attacking" Islam. This is another reason I don't think Islam inspires people in general to the same degree as Christianity or Judaism do. Christians and Jews do not as readily take offense, in general, when something critical is said about their religion.

Seeker

January 18, 2007
12:04 am
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hi free,

{I intentionally avoid political arguments here.}

I usually do, too. I don't know how I got into this discussion. I was just trying to calmly and logically answer something, and see what it morphed into!

{It's gonna be tough so hold on to your hat if you bring up Bush, American pride, or Christianity. they get very nasty and fight dirty.}

That's why I intend to stick with the facts and logic. Notice I don't use too many adjectives or adverbs -- they tend to be subjective and can be explosive. I'll keep talking until people start resorting to name calling. Then I'll shut down the conversation.

Thanks for watching out for me, free. I appreciate it.

Seeker

January 18, 2007
1:22 am
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free
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Hi Matteo-

"kuz" is short slang for because. I like that word.

This was not meant to be an attack on Islam, I'm sorry you feel that way. It was meant to be philosophical.

When somebody disagrees with you or something you believe Matteo, it doesn't mean it's an attack. If it is to you, then that's YOUR issue. when somebody holds a different political position than you, it doesn't mean they're morons. The "If I were you, blah blah blah", and "maybe you should" statements indicate a very young age.

This was meant to be a philosophical discussion.

I'm sure you ARE capable of presenting a logical valid argument in response to seeker. So do so. I'd love to read it.

free

January 18, 2007
1:30 am
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oops I hit send before I was done.

"ellect" is a word Matteo. "elect" and "ellect" give your statements two very different meanings and I just wanted to make certain you meant elect. It's not easy for me to understand what you're saying most of the time let alone decipher if it's hostile or not.

free

January 18, 2007
1:44 am
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You're too funny bevdee.

I've gotten into political debates here before and unless guest is around it ends up being a "bash free" fest. Or so it seemed. The only thing I gained from them is a more staunch position in not identifying with either the pubs or the dems. Not that either is bad, I just view them as extreme.

I'm not a fan of extreme. I feel extreme about Islam. Was kind of hoping somebody here could tame that. But I did find an interesting article earlier- I wish I had saved the URL- in defense of Islam as it claimed Islamic leaders were manipulating words. I'll see if I can find it.

free

January 18, 2007
8:46 am
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bevdee
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Free-

Do you know why you feel so extreme?

I have known a few people that were raised in the Muslim faith. My brother-in-law, raised in the faith, also studied christianity, and decided neither were for him. Nice guy. There are a couple other men I worked with that were very devout, peaceful men. I work with several doctors that were either raised in or still practice their faith. Immigrants, though.

There were several Muslim families, in my part of the state that had their homes or businesses fire-bombed shortly after 911. That cut down the tiny Muslim population in this area quite a bit. These humans left their homes, businesses, possessions, fleeing for safety.

Small-time terrorism? Or acts motivated by fear and anger that were justified by because of the circumstances of 911?

I worried at this backlash reaction the Christian rednecks were having - I worried about my brother-in-law, who is such a great guy, good to my sister and so crazy about his daughters, my nieces.

I see similarities in Islam and Christianity. There are those from either that would (and do)respond to a "call of duty", IMO. It just depends on the rhetoric.

I think it is admirable that you want to look beyond the rhetoric- for whatever reason.

There was a point brought up in one of these many many threads - about Russia. I'll have to go look it up- but I was thinking that when I was younger, Russia was the "red menace". China was also propagandized in the US, and Germany was reviled. Because the politics were different than so-called democracy - Communist.

Now it's oil that the U.S. needs. "We" need the cooperation of powers that don't "act" the way the US is accustomed to parlaying in. This time it seems that the leaders of the US, a country populated mostly by Christians, are using apocalyptic, end of the world fear to whip up patriotism and support.

Why don't they just tell us the truth?

And it's also a hillbilly vendetta thang for Dubya because of Daddy Bush's failure. Us right - them wrong.

Ok -no more pondering--- for a while!!

January 18, 2007
10:12 am
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Matteo
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free ~ if someone says like you did: "“I'm convinced Islam is an evil cult of epic proportion and followers are sheep with no independent thought.” - There is nothing philosophical about it. It is an attack, plain and simple.

It is truly amazing how you, just like guest and seeker cannot separate the person of the poster from the discussion. Thank you for your concern about my issues, but I would appreciate if you would get off my case and pay more attention to your own issues instead, whatever they are.

I guess your style of "philosophical discussion" allows insults and personal remarks, but of course, it is only allowed to you and your supporters; just like terrorism, where the same actions are good if done by some and bad if done by others. Please note that I've never called you, guest or seeker any name, unlike you all did, and if you feel that you are winning your arguments by insulting those who have different opinions than you do, so be it. However, I am not going to engage in any further discussion with people who feel that attacking me personally is a way to go. I had enough abuse in my life and I don't need to experience it here.

No wonder free that you are unable to understand most of what I am saying; we speak different tongues.

Feel free to carry on, spreading the hatred and bigotry and crucifying anybody who disagrees with you. Good luck with choosing another moron for your president. Let him bomb and invade a few more countries with illusionary weapons of mass destruction in them in the name of spreading your democracy, just keep in mind what price tag is attached to it; God forbid if he will ever have oral sex.

P.S. Just in case you are having difficulty differentiating: the last paragraph is not attacking you or anyone else personally. I am exercising my right to free speech.

January 18, 2007
2:48 pm
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Bevdee~ no, not the 9-11 attacks. From study and current events within the Islamic ruled countries. How women are treated mainly.There really is not a whole lot out there regarding the "peacefulness" and I think it's due to this "dark ages" that Islam is supposedly experiencing- kinda like the Christian Crusades. I know many people of the Muslim faith, too, and they are kind, decent people. But they are here, in america, where Islamic Law doesn't reign. Not that ours is perfect by any means, but ya just can't behave the same way as those in Islamic Countries and stay out of jail.

Someday, the balance will come.

free

January 18, 2007
3:23 pm
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bevdee
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Free,

I think it is possible that there are some regular old Muslim folks in their native country that are decent human beings. I just can't believe they are all terrorists. I mean- entire villages?

Another thought to ponder is that in these countries, with less personal choice- it is not only religion, it is culture.

You are right- what do we know other than what we are told about these humans --by our government.

Do you know why you feel so strongly about it?

January 18, 2007
8:11 pm
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bevdee
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FRee

You know, it is also possible that it just is not in the US's interest to publish PR for Islamic nations. Like there wouldn't be warm fuzzy stories about these "infidels", coming out of the US media, would there? Several years ago, I got a sattelite for my tv, and got to watch BBC network- too cool. It surprised me how the news from England had a different slant than ours.

I can't imagine they are ALL evil.

January 18, 2007
8:21 pm
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sleepless in uk
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Bev, that is something I have noticed on my trips to the states. I do think the news coverage and current affairs programmes are more one sided there. There seems to me to be much more propoganda and gung ho styles of reporting.

it also struck me how parochial the news was. Anything that didnt directly affect America got such scant coverage that I was flabbergasted. I rmember being there just after the Omagh bombing in Northern Ireland, one of the last big IRA campaigns.

When I watched the news i couldnt believe how little reference was given to it.

Maybe because the States are so vast and we are so little, but I do think we give a much wider and less subjective view of world events

January 18, 2007
9:16 pm
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bevdee
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Sleepless,

Yes, I noticed that too. It IS a different world than what we (US) have been lead to believe. We are ignorant in many respects.

January 18, 2007
9:23 pm
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The story of Nazanin in Iran recently hit a nerve with me. This is but one of numerous incidences that are NOT and have NOT been reported by our media.

This is what I see regarding life in Islamic Countries(lately- I used to be a hippie-faring beach bum tree-hugger who saw that everybody had a good heart if one just looked- life was bliss-not so anymore). People leave the religion and either hide in fear, or speak out but people don't listen. This has been happening for decades. The advent of the Internet has given these people a voice that can be heard across international lines. these voices of people crying out have nothing to do with the American media, which, by the way, is far-left by anybody's standards. They haven't covered it. I don't see hatred towards Islam represented in the media, I see the voices of people screaming for help ignored, if even heard. Maybe the media is afraid of being labeled as attacking, etc- after all, criticism or questioning of a religion or the followers can cause quite a stir, no matter what one says. One can go to websites and read news from foreign countries, written by reporters in foreign countries. So the age of blaming the America media for everything is really over if ya think about it.

In short, I see people screaming out as loud as they can, and the world is not listening for fear of being politically incorrect.

No time to proof- I'm running everywhere right now multi-tasking- hope this makes sense.

free

January 18, 2007
10:02 pm
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Matteo,

{Please note that I've never called you, guest or seeker any name, unlike you all did}

Excuse me, but you said that after reading what I'd posted, you could see how the USA could elect a "moron" like Bush. You more or less called me a moron, along with Bush.

I read what free posted to you, and I feel she was being fair and positive toward you. She supported you in that she believed you're capable of defending your beliefs intelligently. Why you turned on her as you have puzzles me.

I see you still made no attempt to logically defend your positions, as both free and I had requested.

Sorry, but it seems to be impossible to carry on a constructive dialouge with you. I have tried doing so with you in the past, too, but never got very far.

January 19, 2007
4:07 pm
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on my way
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Matthew 5: 38-42

It means NOT to get involved in someone elses puke. When you turn the other cheek, it does not mean to walk all over that person. Mostly it means though to not get involved in someone else's anger...don't be drawn in...so turn the other cheek. It doesn't mean "Don't look", it means don't get involved, choose battles wisely.

But I am not sure what this has to do with Bush or Islam.

January 20, 2007
9:13 am
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yes, not all Muslims are evil ofcourse. It depends on the individual. They're all the same beucase they're following their religions beleifs. That doesnt mean their belief cant be criticized.

Matteo

I'll ask you to prove wrong the same two statements I gave to WD, who flat gave up answering them saying he was tired.

1) Was Mohammed a violent man?

2) Do terrorists idolize Mohammed?

June 21, 2007
11:47 pm
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Here free

June 22, 2007
12:06 am
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ROFL bevdee!

believe it or not, I mean no harm.

free

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