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Goa ahead, defend Islam
January 15, 2007
11:54 pm
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Alright Matteo, 1) the word in the ayat is 'Azribuhu'. The actual translations which are NOT watered down say "Beat them". That is IT.

2) Sorry but, I dont think women right's activists will like you saying that "slight physical correction" is alright.

Thats just wrong, sorry.

You seem like a Muslim trying to defend that verse.

Quran has explictly advised men to beat their wives if they dont obey them, and that, is just wrong.

I'm surprised that you defended "slight physical correction".

If I had a survey here, everyone would obviously strongly disagree with you, infact in shock.

I dare you then to say "Yes, its ok to slightly physically correct a wife, by slapping her lightly".

There is no "misuse" of Islamic teachings. Most of them are inherently evil and harmful, like this wife beating, spouse-battering order.

January 15, 2007
11:56 pm
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Hi matteo,

Appears you feel guest questioning you is condescending. I guess your questions to me were not , then? then surely mine won't be to you.

Matteo, How did you study Islam? Do you have Muslim friends or maybe family, did you talk to them, did you go to their houses and see what life style they lead? Did you talk to Sunni and Shia Muslims? Did you see the differences between them and the array of beliefs and behaviours among them? Did you? Or did you study Islam through Western propaganda or “scholarly” debates posted on Internet? Did you actually sit down with Koran in your hands and read it?

I'm curious about your credentials and experience with Islam matteo. Please share.

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January 16, 2007
12:04 am
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It appears there can be no denying the atrocious treatment of women in Islam. None. It's practiced today. But, that's just beating a dead horse as wd said.

Sounds as though modern treatment of women in Islam is acceptable to wd and matteo.

This disturbs me.

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January 16, 2007
12:20 am
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After you see that the basic teachings of Islam teach society to view women as inferior and ask men to abuse women in different ways, we're not surprised to read this:

When women are mistreated or suffer violence at the hands of male relatives, they often have no means for redress. Rania al-Baz, a presenter on state-run Channel One television, raised the issue of domestic violence in an unprecedentedly public way in April 2004 when she gave press interviews from her hospital bed and released photos of her badly bruised face after her husband had savagely beaten her. Her case galvanized public opinion and stimulated considerable debate about the problem of spousal abuse.

Source: http://hrw.org/english/docs/20.....ia9810.htm

This is the story in any Muslim country where Islam is being followed. The closer a Muslim country follows Islam, the worse the situation for human rights. And whats the root cause of all this evil and suffering? Islamic teachings. I have posted the verses and hadiths as proof.

Yet we'll see I's like WD coming and saying stuff like "Islam teaches me to respect women". No wonder defense of ignorant statements like that does not exist.

January 16, 2007
12:21 am
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and others.

Biased am I? Oh, yeah, right now I'm pretty angry. nazanin's story- I never saw it in the news. In newspapers. On the news internet sites that I read. This stuff happens daily in Islamic countries. I first heard about it HERE. And how many people responded to the post about Nazanin? 3 or 4? How many people signed the petition? 7 thousand or so? that's pathetic in a "free country." Much less a "free" world. Bring it up, and it's all viewed and defended as just another uneducated bigoted attack against a religion that millions hold sacred.

Now I'm sad.

this is really sad.

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January 16, 2007
12:25 am
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So here's the chain of spousal abuse and loss of human rights:

Islamic teachings => What Mullahs teach => What the society does

Its a simple connection.

Its the same case for terrorism.

As to what degree these teachings get implemented and as to what portion of society engages in these implementations - depends on the amount of negative energy the individual Muslim has.

The less Islamic a Muslim is, the better person they are. Thats why modern societies have lesser problems. Its the grey areas. You have to see the full picture.

January 16, 2007
12:33 am
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I'll have to retire again from here, I just have to do so much stuff.

Its just sad that when there's stuff for me to do, the first I want to do is NOT do it. Its sad. I have some positive hope though, I feel I'll start doing my stuff.

This is a very intense critique of Islam that I did here in my recent posts. The end of all this debate is that people stick to their opinions no matter what. The only thing that brings change in people's opinions is from within the person on their own will, and it is based on emotions usually.

As an example, if a person A's close friend is harmed badly by an Islamic terror attack and person A is emotionally rattled by that experience, that will trigger the change and cause them to switch sides. Thats the stuff that causes people to change their opinions. Everything is based on emotions.

January 16, 2007
12:40 am
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Yeah, I gotta go do my stuff too. Work. This stuff takes alot of energy for me kuz i get reading and googling and reading and googling. And googling and reading.

and I've got so much work to do.

guest, it was good to see you again.

Loralei and RW, glad you popped in.

wd and matteo, hopefully no hard feelings. Been studying Islam since the last big debate here, recently the Nazanin story hit a nerve with me big time. Believe it or not, I WAS seeking to have this anger tamed. I don't think it can be.

Maybe someday.

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January 16, 2007
12:43 am
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free ~ since you are so curious: yes, I have friends and family who are Muslims, I went to their homes, I discussed religion with them, I observed their customs and rites, I observed a few times Ramadan with them, I saw their attitudes and lifestyles, I know both Sunni and Shia Muslims from different parts of the World, I spoke to Muslims who are orthodox and those who were just born to that faith and don't observe anything. I spoke to men and women, young and old, well educated and without much education at all. I watched movies, read books about Islam from Western perspective and books for Muslims, and I read Quaran. Plus from the childchood I was fed hatred towards Islam and Muslims.

What about your credentials and experience with Islam? Please share.

January 16, 2007
12:48 am
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Free

The thing that really bugs me is the practice of female clitoral circumcision.

While Islam denies it is scriptural, it is a widely accepted cultural practice in the Middle East and parts of Africa.

As far as I can ascertain, it is not a matter of respect for their women, but a means of controlling women and their sexuality. Less chance of infidelity if the This received public attention a few years ago.

Later--

January 16, 2007
12:57 am
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guest_guest ~ I've never said that slight physical correction is OK. I didn't voice my opinion at all, and if I did, I would never agree. I was merely quoting Quaran, which verses state in my opinion not what you are saying they do. It's up to anyone to read and judge on their own. Please don't put words in my mouth.

And by the way, I signed the Nazanin' petition. Did you?

January 16, 2007
1:07 am
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Matteo- similar to yours, and a recent 18 month long series of classes at our local University. so do I win the shitting contest or do you?

Peace be with ya

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January 16, 2007
1:18 am
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free ~ Shitting contest? I am sure you are better!

Peace back to ya

January 16, 2007
1:22 am
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That was funny!

🙂

January 16, 2007
1:23 am
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Matteo

"I was merely quoting Quaran, which verses state in my opinion not what you are saying they do."

What did I say that the Quran does not say?

"where slight physical punishment might be literally a slap on the wrist or just a gesture – only once!"

Who said "only ONCE"? You invented your own meanings. The Quran's order is clear - BEAT THEM. There is no "only once". And even if it there was, you're saying that its alright for me to slap you once if you were my wife?

Do you agree that beating women is wrong with no exception, period? Should I expect to get that statement from you or not?

January 16, 2007
1:24 am
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I concede.

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January 16, 2007
1:58 am
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guest_guest,

(God forbid that I was your wife, because I'm sure I would be tempted to slap you!)

You've said: “Quran 4:34 asks men to Beat up their wives if they disobey them. Can you explain how this teaching of Islam can be "twisted and misused" ?”

I quoted Sura 4:34 and 4:35 and then I've said:

Those above Suras are guiding through marital or family dispute. “Slight physical correction” is according to scholars inadvisable though permissible, and by no means should be cruel; if all the steps fail, then family meeting is advisable which might lead to reconciliation or separation and divorce, so actually there is nowhere asking men to “Beat up their wives.”

The question you've asked me was: "Can you explain how that teaching can be twisted and misused?"

And my answer to it was:

Well, guest_guest, you may either read those verses and you might try all those steps, where slight physical punishment might be literally a slap on the wrist or just a gesture – only once! and then proceed to further steps of resolving your differences by asking your relatives to help you, eventually have a three month separation period, (longer if she is pregnant or just had a baby) and divorce her, if you still cannot get along - or you can go ahead and abuse your wife till the rest of your lives, if this is what you believe the above verses are telling you to do.

Yes, that was an example, my own example of how those Suras might be interpreted and misinterpreted.
You are asking for my opinion and then accusing me of voicing it?

Helloo??

January 16, 2007
7:58 am
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I dont understand how the surah was being "misinterpreted". The actual order is to "beat your wife". In what way can that be 'misinterpreted'?

Your original intent to say that the Islamic teachings might be misinterpreted was obviously that, it was a good teaching and somehow it lost its meaning.

Lets rephrase: Why dont you answer these simple questions I asked you: 1) Is wife beating (to any extent) wrong? 2) Does Quran encourage wife-beating?

That implies you agree with me that Quran is wrong and encourages violence against women.

January 16, 2007
9:43 am
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guest_guest,

My answer to your questions is: 1). yes 2).no

If, instead of what is said in those ayats, Sura 4: 34 would say only (only - meaning: nothing else but): “O men! Beat the women who disobey you!”, I would agree with you, guest-guest. Instead, those two ayats are talking about permissible steps to reconciliation when there is a crisis between the spouses. You took words out of the whole context. Reading those verses (all of those vesres), I am positive that they don’t say: men, go ahead and beat up the women around you, especially your wives, you have Allah’s blessing! as you are saying they do. That’s misinterpretation and by “misinterpretation” I mean the interpretation totally different than the intentions and message conveyed, aside from my opinion if the message itself is good, bad or in between. If you don’t understand what I am talking about then please read my posts again, and again and again until you will, if you ever will, because I am tired of repeating myself, and I am done with repeating myself.

Have a nice day.

January 16, 2007
9:53 am
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Matteo,

How does the Quran not encourage wife beating? In 4:34, it says in the end of all those steps you're saying "BEAT HER".

If thats not encouragement of wife beating, what is it?

What are you trying to do? I guess you found out they didnt tell you the whole story when you were about to convert to this stupid religion and now you want to avoid looking foolish. THATS what it is.

"men, go ahead and beat up the women around you"

This is the same thing as:

"If they dont obey you, scold them. then dont sleep with then. If that doesnt work too, beat them".

Its the same thing -correct? The bottomline is, if you disobey your husband, you can be BEATEN.

This is amazing. We have a non-Muslim here trying to defend 4:34 all because at one point in their life they almost converted to this stupid religion.

Instead of saying "Wow, I was not told this, this is horrible, thanks for letting me know", they choose the path of deception and dishonesty to themselves. Am I correct in assuming that you were not told about this wife-beating verse when you were about to convert to Islam?

January 16, 2007
10:44 am
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guest_guest ,

You are not correct in the assessment of my motivations, and your personal remarks are condescending, disrespectful, and totally out of line. We are not discussing me here but verses of Quran. If you cannot engage in a discussion without personal attacks then don’t engage in discussion at all. Discussing religion or any other subject on Lib, Brew threads ought to proceed in accordance with guidelines of this site and that is without personal attacks and with respect to other posters.

As I said before, keep reading my posts to understand my message instead of analyzing me. Analyze yourself instead; I’m sure it will benefit you more than anything else.

January 16, 2007
12:02 pm
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To the following question:

"Does Quran encourage wife-beating?"

You responded with "No". Please explain.

January 16, 2007
12:05 pm
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Matteo, let me clear this then as well: You're saying that you WERE aware of the issue of Quran 4:34 at the time you were about to convert to Islam? Or were you not?

January 16, 2007
12:09 pm
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Peaceful Islamic teaching of the day:

Ishaq 327

Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’

January 16, 2007
7:21 pm
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yuck.

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