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Goa ahead, defend Islam
January 14, 2007
4:54 pm
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“I'm convinced Islam is an evil cult of epic proportion and followers are sheep with no independent thought.”

Islam, Matteo. Islam.

the challenge I posted refers to Islam. There's a thread about the Vatican right now, and a thread can be created about Christianity as well I 'spose.

But this one's about Islam and a challenge to defend it.

Doesn't look like anybody's up to it, and I'm kinda bummed about that.

Like I said, I'd love to know how you fare at this site. But, instead, we get "Islam is Peace" and a bunch of other claims with no supporting facts, just I believe, and blah blah blah. And of course we gotta have a countering thread started about Islam and peace and blah blah blah.

I'm sorry I said anything at all.

I thought somebody might have valid points to offer.

free

January 14, 2007
5:00 pm
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Bevdee, its worse. Religion teaches them that non-Muslims are sons of pigs and wine. This is actually taught in Saudi Arab to little children. So its religion based hatred that teaches them to hate people only because they're not Muslims.

WD, how is Islam a peaceful religion? Prove it, please.

January 14, 2007
5:07 pm
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Here's the challenge. Note that it has to do with Islam, Mohammed, and Muslims, not Christianity, spirituality, and various other religions or lack of them.

The challenge is:

Disprove my accusations against Muhammad.

I accuse Muhammad of being:

a rapist
a pedophile (had sex with a child)
an assassin
a mass murderer
a ruthless torturer
a terrorist (I have been made victorious through terror)
a lecher
a misogynist
a narcissist
a thief and plunderer
a cult leader
a mentally deranged (was paranoid, heard voices, hallucinated of seeing jinns, Satan and angels, used to think he had sex with his wives when he did not, suffered from depression and had suicidal tendencies).

Muslims often ask: "Who will judge whether or not an attempt to disprove your accusations against Muhammad and Islam, was successful?"

My debates with Muslims are published for the world to see. Read them. Do you think anyone of my opponents had a wining argument?

All they said can be summarized as:

a- Denial of the authenticity of the Islamic sources that report the stories of crimes of Muhammad (example: debate with Edip Yukssel, the head of the Submitters)

b- Moral relativism and situational ethics, i.e. “In those days, pedophilia, assassination, rape, theft, massacre and lying, were common practice, so Muhammad is innocent because he did what everyone else did.” Muslims even go as far as to question the legitimacy of the Golden Rule to claim we do not have any bases to condemn Muhammad. In other words evil can be good and vice versa (example: debate with Yamin Zakaria)

I'd love to see this challenge taken and won.

free

January 14, 2007
5:10 pm
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Free,

I think I have pretty much risen to the challenge.

The site you link to is not about Islam. It is about one ex-Muslim's problems with Mohammed.
I say, that the life and teachings of Mohammed are more or less irrelevant.

Here is a close analogy.

Thomas Jefferson kept slaves and raped his slaves.

George Bush Sr. and also Jr. are war criminals.

In WW-II, it was taught that Japanese Americans must be put into concentration camps.

The USA is the only country to have ever slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians with atomic weapons.

I am willing to give you that many many US leaders and that the American people as a group have committed unspeakable atrocities.

So fucking what?

That does not mean that American-style constitutional democracy is a bad thing.

Here is another one:

The Bible very clearly states that homosexuals must be stoned to death.

Even though 10,000 years of observation have never ever demonstrated the tiniest hint of evidence of the existence of God, and even though modern science has pretty much "demonstrated" that belief in the existence of God is at best a kind of childhood neurosis and at the worst a form of outright insanity, a form of insanity that has led to untold violence and suffering, and that belief in God might soon be treatable, maybe even curable with medication and therapy, and perhaps preventable by means of vaccination and genetic therapy....

Jesus, himself, was well-known to have believed...wait for it...in the existence of GOD!

Even wicked cults can yield goodness and wisdom.

January 14, 2007
5:40 pm
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Matteo
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Yes, WD, thank you, and it goes on and on and on.

The title of this thread directing to the site about Mohammed, should read: Go ahead, defend Mohammed, plain and simple.

Talking about Islam being worse religion than any other is hypocritical, especially considering what is going on in our own backyard, which is not any less evil or dangerous, that's why I referred to other religions, and referring to other religions on this thread is as relevant (or irrelevant) as referring to Islam being equal to Mohammed.

Yes, bevdee, I was raised in Christianity and almost converted to Islam. In fact, I am and was non-religious for the most of my life, and I didn’t believe in God for as long as I couldn’t see the clear distinction between God and religion, which fortunately didn’t last long. "Christian godman" - I like that! As WD said, Jesus believed in God, and I risk the statement that this God wasn't Jesus himself. But that's another thread, I guess.

January 14, 2007
5:50 pm
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"Free,

I think I have pretty much risen to the challenge. "

How is the debate going?

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January 14, 2007
6:19 pm
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"Talking about Islam being worse religion than any other is hypocritical"

I've read and re-read my posts and can't find anything in them that talks about islam being a religion worse than others. I can't even find one where I talked about other religions.

where is this coming from?

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January 14, 2007
6:27 pm
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WD

No one worshipped Thomas Jefforson and saw him as their idol.

Are you saying it is OK for me to start a religion in which I teach people that people with internet nicknames 'Worried_Dad' should be tracked down, hunted and murdered in cold blood?

Suppose that cult of mine took off and not only did I have you killed, but by followers after 100's of years continued to kill people with nicks "WD".

Is the cult I started not atleast partially responsible for murders of people with nicknames 'WD' ?

January 14, 2007
6:31 pm
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typo: "but MY followers after 100's of years"

January 14, 2007
6:42 pm
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guest, why do you think so many people followed the teachings of Mohammed?

From what I've read, the reason is fear of bodily injury and or death.

Survival demanded, and still does, the following of Mohammed's teachings.

free

January 14, 2007
6:49 pm
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Men wanted the houris, people were illiterate and were idle idiots. Times were bad already with female infants being burnt at birth.

Really simply, people wanted to go to heaven, enjoy the women, rivers of wine and milk and there was this guy who promised that they would, if they were good enough. And that if they werent good enough, there was painful hellfire.

If you had a strong personality with lots of charisma and emotional intelligence, you could pull it off too. It was 1400 years ago and in the arab desert.

Men wanted sex and lots of it and Mohammed promised it to them, if they followed him.

January 14, 2007
6:50 pm
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Correction: Being _buried_ at death

January 14, 2007
7:38 pm
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Free ~ It comes from my assumption that when you said “I'm convinced Islam is an evil cult of epic proportion and followers are sheep with no independent thought” you meant more so than any other religion, and from the same assumption when you’ve said “Islam, Matteo. Islam. the challenge I posted refers to Islam.” Usually when someone attacks somebody else’s religion is to prove that their own is better. Sorry if my assumption were wrong and if that wasn’t your intention.

However, just like it is always advised here to look into our own issues instead other’s faults and mistakes, the same principle perhaps should apply to religion. Let’s look into Christianity and what its doing all over the world for centuries already and especially today as we speak in America, whose interests it serves and what effect does it have on the followers and non-belivers alike, before we will get aggravated with other religions, Islam included, and ascribe to them all the evil.

January 14, 2007
10:46 pm
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With all do respect Matteo, you did in fact assume incorrectly.

People may be interested in debating Christianity with you I'm sure. I'm not at the current time.

I've been studying Islam for some time now, and have come to a belief that it is an evil cult of epic proportion. I posted this challenge because at this point I'm looking for fallacies in the premises on which I've drawn this conclusion.

It wasn't meant to be a heated attack on you, your religion, or anybody else's. it's not even an attack on Islam. It's what I see to be true and factual.

Matteo, it's pretty evident that when you and I post on the same thread, buttons get pushed. I'm sorry you've animosity towards me, but that doesn't make me want to pad what I think about Islam.

No need to defend Islam here, defend it at this site:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/ch.....llenge.htm

I'd love to know how you fare. Kuz I can be a pretty skilled debater with people who "follow the rules of debate" or whatever and I came to the following conclusion:

Islam is an evil cult of epic proportion. I'd be very interested in knowing how others do in a debate. he'll debate with you as long as you stay on topic and avoid the feely-feely emotional stuff.
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January 14, 2007
10:52 pm
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"However, just like it is always advised here to look into our own issues instead other’s faults and mistakes, the same principle perhaps should apply to religion."

This is the liberation brew threads. This is what many do here. Guidelines have not been broken. Look into your own issues over in support. Here, it is common to debate heated topics, and religion is one of them.

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January 14, 2007
10:55 pm
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oops- I forgot the last half of my conclusion:

Islam is an evil cult of epic proportion and it's followers are sheep with no independent thought.

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January 15, 2007
12:22 am
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WD,

Do you agree with these statements?

1) Mohammed was a violent man.

2) Terrorists idolize Mohammed.

If you dont agree, please prove them wrong.

January 15, 2007
1:32 am
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I am a scholar. A poor scholar, but still--it is my nature to study.

I am a student of comparative religion. Sometimes I have gone at it dispassionately and analytically. Kind of like I went at the study of medicine, sociology and psychiatry. But this particular study bites really close to home.

Here is my defense of Islam.

Islam has transmitted to me teachings and traditions that echo and reinforce and give additional body and power and beauty and meaning to the good and wise teachings of other spiritual traditions ranging from paleolithic goddess worship, the secrets of the Yogas, the compassion of the Dalai Lamma, who is my special friend, and also of the Lummi and Tlingit and Lakota Shamen who arranged for me to hear their teachings, and the White Buffalo Woman, who is my secret protector, and to the teachings of the Christ-Friends who are my closest lovers, those who love and preserve the true teachings of Jesus.

Teachings from Islamic tradition help me to have greater respect for my Comanche ancestors.

The Heart of Islam helps me find my own heart. It helps me find courage. It helps me to embrace peace and forgiveness and resist my animal nature that leads me to fear and rage and violence.

The Heart of Islam helps me to respect women, and to have reverence for all of my grandmothers and grandfathers.

The Heart of Islam helps me find courage and compassion as I work at understanding and teaching about domestic violence, and exercising my puny powers to protect those in need of protecting, those who need to discover their own powers.

The Heart of Islam is one thing that helps me feel my own True Wise Heart, and strive for wisdom, and healing and inclusion, despite my own essentially ignorant and selfish nature.

I am also capable of criticism of Islam--for God and my ancestors have given me powerful gifts of criticism. Few who know me doubt that I am a mighty critic.

But you have asked me for a *defense* of Islam.

The wisdom of my maturity is this: I know that I can destroy much faster than I can build and create. And so can each of us.

It takes nine months to create a person; it takes just a moment to destroy a person.

There is nothing wrong with criticism. But it is human nature to confuse criticism with the impulse to destroy--the impulse to murder.

And it is human nature to misname things, to confuse a word or name associated with a thing for the actual thing itself, and to confuse a mere word, such as "criticism" for the actual act that we propose doing to a thing...or a person...namely destruction or murder.

I am fine with criticism of of individuals, their acts, of books, and of institutions.

But I believe that a good and wise person will hesitate--perhaps forever before they destroy something that they do not completely understand.

And there is no limit to human misunderstanding.

Please understand: I am an ignorant, lazy, greedy, wretched coward. I am appalled by my misdeeds and my potential misdeeds. I am a sinner and I need to confess to someone.

As best I can tell, my only virtue is that I do not want to be or embody those things, and I am capable of rejecting and at least postponing, for now, acting on those parts of myself that are not worthy of me.

And the Abrahamic traditions, especially the esoteric expressions of those traditions, including Islam help me do that.

These are the limits my own personal misunderstanding that I share with you.

And that is the conclusion of my defense of Islam. It is that I offer in defense of Christianity and for other spiritual traditions.

No system is perfect or incorruptible, and every philosophy has a flaw.

I ask you to judge the systems I have named as you would judge me.

Judge me first.

If Christianity is Irredeemably Evil then so am I. If I am not Irredeemably Evil, then I submit that Christianity is not Irredeemably Evil.

And so it is with every moral system that has shaped me. Including Islam.

If you condemn all Islam then you also condemn me and all I am and all that I stand for.

Defense rests.

January 15, 2007
8:47 am
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WD

"The Heart of Islam helps me to respect women"

Really? Like in Quran 4:34, Allah asks men to beat their wives if they dont obey them. Have you beaten your wife as well in 'respect'?

What respect are you talking about? Maybe this one:

-------

Sahih Bukhari Volume 007, Book 062, Number 033

Narrated Usama bin Zaid: The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."

-------

This is an evil stupid religion which has done more harm than good.

Are you sure you're not a Muslim? A Sufi Muslim? Are your parents, or something close to you?

What is your association with Islam? I wonder.

"Few who know me doubt that I am a mighty critic."

You're also a wiseass, sorry to say - in plain candid words, I hope you didnt mind. You have some mental conspitation and it comes out in various forms.

"I am an ignorant, lazy, greedy, wretched coward."

You may be, but you should stop being so.

What has Islam taught you that common sense cant?

1) Tell me your personal association and history with Islam so I can see where you're coming from.

2) I'll go back to getting you to answer those two questions about terrorism. Its not going to be easy.

January 15, 2007
8:51 am
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Your dependence on these Abrahamic religions and other philosophies to learn to respect women and other stuff is a sign of your deep disbelief in your ability to live life based on your own independent judgement.

Do you believe you can make an independent evaluation and judgement on anything life throws at you? I dont think so. It doesnt look like.

January 15, 2007
8:53 am
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And thats a sign of great self-esteem; our trust in our own mind (thanks to Dr. Nathaniel Branden who taught me this other defination of self-esteem).

This is just partial though. That guy was wonderful. I still got his book.

January 15, 2007
12:44 pm
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Guest,

If human beings were left "to their own minds" we would be little better than animals. We would be incapable of speech, reading and writing. No mind exists by itself, guest.

For example, I do not feel the need to ridicule your "dependence" on the work Dr. Nathaniel Branden--you found his wrting and his ideas helpful, even though they came from outside your mind.

It is only slightly annoying that you would try to shrink me here and lecture me about psychiatry.

It is more annoying that rather than try to hear me and understand me you have put words into my mouth here and made me into an imaginary character. Not only are you not "getting" what I have been trying to say--you don't want to--nothing I say matters to you. That is pretty disrespectful.

To label every person who finds value in spiritual discipline as having some kind of mental health problem--well, that's just plain silly. And it says something about your own self-esteem that you feel a need to put so many people down, so frequently.

But that you first arent respectful enough to listen, then remake me as a fantasy object of ridicule, and then go on to on to offer your own smug criticism of my mental health....that'a adds up to damn annoying.

Guest, have you ever considered the idea that there is more to mental health than self esteem? That perhaps being in full health also means being a kind person?

January 15, 2007
1:17 pm
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Islam teaches men to respect women? How? Currently that is.

Read the story about Nazanin in Iran.

Nazanin, 17, and her 16 year old niece were attacked by 3 men and nazanin stabbed one of her attackers to prevent being raped, and was scheduled for execution for murder. she was just exonerated in her re-trial but must pay blood money to the "victim's" family. Nazanin had to undergo a court ordered vaginal exam to find out if she was in fact a virgin, as if this has anything to do with the fact she was attacked. A rapist attacked this woman and the rapist is the victim. A raped woman is punished by 100 lashes for losing her virginity and chastity. a woman's testimony is worth half a man's. I could go on and on.

C'mon. Islam teaches to respect women? I'm having a tough time even entertaining this one. and I'm really trying.

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January 15, 2007
1:26 pm
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WD,

Being a kind person doesnt mean being a peace hippie and having an "all is love" approach and that its ok to say that a religion of hate and violence is actually a reliigon of peace.

How EXACTLY did Islam teach you to respect women?

Why did you not address the hadiths I showed you that prove that on the contrary Islam has no respect for women?

January 15, 2007
1:30 pm
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WD, it seems that you see Islam, as well as all the other religions, as more of a philosophy or way of life rather than a religion. If this is the case, then I agree with you whole-heartedly. It is the religious dogma, the demands that religions make of their followers to obey everything they dictate, that bothers me. The dogma is the root of fanaticism. The blind faith that people put in their religious leaders causes wars. Because of the negative things written in the so-called holy books, followers use these as their excuse for doing evil things. This is the real problem. The evil included in the holy books contaminates them, and thus, contaminates the religion that follows it. If there were only good and positive in these books, we wouldn't be having these discussions.

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