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Gnosis - Will it make all present day religions redundant?
July 8, 2006
10:33 pm
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Tez, yea, to me, seeker is Sir Galahad, the knight in shining armour.

Yea, I have no idea of the self-talk you did. These are all just labels, they dont even matter. Self is what I think I am, right. Thats all there is. We're organizsms like the chimpanzees, just a little more complex. Do they have a self? Do dogs have a self? To you: Where does the self go after we die?

Well seeker________, you love being the knight in shining armour and always asking the ladies if they want you to beat their abuser up.

>> Let me tell you a little secret -- nothing seems to touch a woman more than a decent guy does. << Yea, but nothing more touches a woman that the realization that she doesnt need a man to protect herself.

July 8, 2006
10:35 pm
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Seeker, then give me the honest answer. Do you stand up for men the same way you stand up for women? I might be wrong. I dont know cause I havent seen you in real life and here most people are women so I couldnt see the avidence if it did exist.

July 8, 2006
10:45 pm
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"evidence" typo.

July 9, 2006
12:17 pm
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"The idea that a good God would send people to a burning hell is utterly damnable to me. I don't want to have anything to do with such a God.

I am an infidel today."

-- Luther Burbank, interview in San Francisco Bulletin, Jan. 22, 1926

July 9, 2006
12:31 pm
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wow thanks bevdee, right on spot.

Me niether, I want NOTHING to do with the God of Christaintiy or Islam, or any God who doesnt frigging ACCEPT me for what I am and who wants my obedience. To that God, I say a lot of four letter words (and a lot more) Bah.

So glad i was able to leave religion.

July 9, 2006
12:34 pm
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Don't even curse that god, he doesn't exist.

Guest have a ggod one!!

Bevdee

July 9, 2006
12:57 pm
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I swear to you that was not a "deliberate" typo", I meant good!!!

Bevdee

July 9, 2006
2:46 pm
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you said I should have a one God :(( you're like the rest. boohoo.

I mean, yea i saw the typo :D, thanks, hehe.

I cursed their God to remind them of the hatred their God has for me, by sentencing me to hellfire.

See, no one is able to respond to this, they cant. They're stumped.

July 9, 2006
8:11 pm
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On the 8-Jul-06 you asked:

"Where does the self go after we die?"

From my understanding of it, the ego is the 'sense of self'. It is that function of our consciousness that says: "'I' am a separate, permanent entity. This is me and that is not me". When it gets offended, the ego-self is that which gets all 'egg bound' thinking: "You cannot diminish me in my eyes, by calling 'me' this or that!" .

For example, Seeker's 'me' is firing 'torpedoes' at both the Guest_guest's 'me' and the Tez's 'me' - three egos with the potential to want to defend and maintain their own imaginary borders.

Of course Seeker's ego-self probably thinks that his torpedoes have righteousness and nobility powering them just as you and I do about our own 'torpedoes'.

The funny thing is that Seeker's 'torpedoes' cannot find their mark without our own egos guiding them in to his intended target - our emotions!

It is our ego-self's choice in our interpretations of the 'warheads' on his torpedoes that determines their 'explosive power' when they are guided by us into our own emotional centres.

Where do these ego selves of ours go after we die? Answer: To the same place where they came from before we were born, IMO.

July 9, 2006
8:16 pm
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bevdee

Thanks for your 8-Jul-06 posting containing the Bertram Russell quote - most appropo.

He's a great philosopher.

July 9, 2006
9:33 pm
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Tez I agree. I'm not clear: Do you think any part of us is left after we die? I think you belief that our self lives on, etc? I might be wrong.

July 10, 2006
2:04 pm
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Oh Tez!

I think these are the hardest questions yet!! But I am going to give it my best/

No, of course I don't hate all men. I see some good relationships, and I am friends with some men.

Back to the abuser - I am realising how very deeply I let him scar me. Anything I told him was used against me. He picked up on any vulnerability, or imagined one, and tried to use it to insult me. And while I know ALL men aren't like him, I am having a great deal of difficulty working past that pain and fear.

You have asked -

No, not all men. However, it IS my experience with men I have THOUGHT I was in love with. Because that is the kind of man I attracted, and was attracted to. Remember? July 5-06, I said,

I've protected myself in the last 10 years. My cousin already knew all about me. No risk there. He pursued me. Then, after that, I decided I would be in control.

Ummm, I think he likes to look at me. He likes talking to me, because I almost always have opinions, and when I'm not talking, I listen, and ask questions. I see something flicker in his eyes when that happens. I also think he respects me for never asking for or accepting any offers of help, when I was having such a hard time financially. One good thing!! I know with absolute certainty he is not after my earnings.!!!

Oh hell, Tez!! it can't be that!!

In some areas, I have no pretension. I am pretty down to earth. I am not into acquisition of material things. And I am not interested in people who are, or those who brag about it. He, too is non-pretentious this way.

But as for the cool, aloofness? I think he might see past that attempted projection.

Maybe

His intelligence, his disposition, his looks, his work ethic. His views on religion are similar to mine. He likes animals.

(I'm kind of liking this persistence.)

No, it's not the only thing, but that is a big draw.

< Or is he also a buttress against loneliness?>

I can fill the loneliness with alot of things. I always have. It is more than that. He is good company, and I have fun when I am with him. I don't want to NEED someone to make me feel less lonely.

YES., like I said- I really REALLY don't want his pity. Or contempt.

no .....sometimes......mostly no.

It's like I have these - cobwebs. Until I clear these cobwebs from the attic of my mind, I am afraid I will not be able to have a good relationship.

Probably not. Maybe under hypnosis.

Bevdee

July 10, 2006
2:06 pm
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I am so sorry, I posted the above post on the wrong thread!!!

July 10, 2006
2:09 pm
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Tez, this is what I meant to say -

"Sweep aside those hatred-eaten mystics, who pose as friends of humanity and preach that the highest virtue man can practice is to hold his own life as of no value."

-- Ayn Rand, character John Galt in Atlas Shrugged (1957)

July 10, 2006
11:05 pm
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guest_guest
9-Jul-06

You said:

"I'm not clear: Do you think any part of us is left after we die?"

and:

"I think you belief that our self lives on, etc? I might be wrong."

Given your 'self and world' view, this is a very difficult question for me to answer in words that you will find meaningful.

I will understand if you do not understand my answer.

Since I don't believe in the existence of a separate, indivisible, permanent 'self' or 'soul' then I obviously don't believe in any such concept of a 'self' such as you have, surviving death.

I do believe that a conscious awareness exists. That's obvious to me. I presume that there is the same experience in you.

Now the the sticking point. I believe that the source of the conscious awareness that both you and I have, is a higher consciousness underpinning each. Higher again is a 'pure' unconditioned consciousness that underpins all other conscious awareness. In fact, I believe that that this 'pure', unconditioned consciousness is the very 'Ground of Being' that underpins all including the energy pattern that we call the atom.

At a much lower order, there is an awareness of a consciousness of a self that I mistakenly believe is owned by that same self that 'I' label as 'me'. My very words are riddled with evidence of this mistaken belief of mine. Had I not this deluded , deepseated, entrenched belief I would not be writing this to you at all.

What do I think goes on after my body dies? Answer: A conscious awareness will IMO still exist that will differ from that previous to my death. Why the difference? The loss of input from my dead brain will free this previously mentioned higher order component of 'my' present conscious awareness; a higher order component that is not brain dependent but the reverse. That Higher Order Component will still exist, IMO, just as it did before my death. In fact, I believe that this component will be liberated from the prison of the constant demands for attention made by the brain and its associated nervous system. It will be eurphoric losing these incessant demands.

I base the above beliefs partly upon my own meditation experiences and partly upon my very broad and extensive reading of other people's experiences in NDE's, OOBE's and other many and varied paranormal experiences such as precognitions, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, mental telepathy not to even mention the writings of the mystics. Many of the above are well documented and substantiated by hard evidence.

Please don't ask me to produce such evidence if you want a reply. I have given you oodles of URLs etc and you simply say that the documents are to hard to read or you are just not interested, or too lazy, etc -your words not mine.

If you want to believe that your life terminates into non-existence then be my guest - no pun intended. That belief takes great faith and whilst it is somewhat comforting to hold that belief it is impossible to either falsify or validate by empirical and/or anecdotal evidence and is based upon blind faith alone as is the commonly held Christian beliefs.

Believing that life after death exists is not the same as believing in the existence of some God as perpetrated upon us by man made religions of this world. I don't believe in such a God. However the Ground of Being as experienced by the genuine mystics is another ball game altogether.

July 10, 2006
11:21 pm
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bevdee

Ahh Ayn Rand - she was Dr. Nathaniel Branden's girl friend at one stage I believe. Guest_guest is one of Dr. Nat's disciples.

Ayn's quote:

"Sweep aside those hatred-eaten mystics, ..."

D'Adamo in his book gives a good write up on the definition of a mystic, pointing out how often misunderstood and/or misused the word is.

This is one such case I fear. Hatred is the antithesis of mysticism.

Ayn continues with:

"... who pose as friends of humanity and preach that the highest virtue man can practice is to hold his own life as of no value."

I think that this is evidence that Ayn Rand was confusing ascetics with mystics. The Buddha, perhaps the greatest of the mystics in our known history, valued human life very dearly indeed. I suspect that other mystics did the same.

On the other hand, ascetics, such as the Buddha was before his realisation of the dangers of the extremes of ascetism, hold their lives as having little or no value at all.

Thanks for your post.

July 12, 2006
12:06 am
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Tez

yea I've read Dr. Nat's affairs. On Jay Leno, Jay said that Eienstien had had 10 different lovers besides two wives and he used to share his affairs with his wive. Interesting.

This is your crux of your post:

>> this 'pure', unconditioned consciousness is the very 'Ground of Being' that underpins all including the energy pattern that we call the atom. << I dont believe any kind of concious can exist without any brain activity. Even though I've not read the evidence, NDE and OBE etc, all have to have brain activity. Have OBE and NDE's ever been documented without occurence of any brain activity? I can then believe there's a conciousness indepededent of the biological brain. Its appealing for you to beleive you'll exist in some way after you death, but this is not true. Dr Nat makes this point nicely: You were not you before your birth. You will not also be you after your death. Death is the end. I'd asked you, do dogs and other animals also have this conciousness? Does their conciousness also transfer into the atomic Higher conciousness etc? (Ground of Being, you say)

July 12, 2006
3:46 pm
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Tez,

About that quote..... when the character said mystics, I automatically thought of the "mystics" of the religion I was raised in - not Buddha.

Thank you for presenting me with ascetics vs mystics.

July 12, 2006
7:42 pm
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Guest_guest.

You said:

"I dont believe any kind of concious can exist without any brain activity. Even though I've not read the evidence, NDE and OBE etc, all have to have brain activity."

In responding to this statement I will simply quote Herbert Spencer. In this now famous statement, he said:

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is contempt before investigation."

July 12, 2006
7:45 pm
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bevdee.

Thanks for your thanks.

July 12, 2006
10:52 pm
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hi Tez, but do we have that evidence? ofcourse i'd be open to it. Is it in Prof Tart's webpages.

July 14, 2006
1:02 am
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On 12-Jul-06 you said:

"but do we have that evidence?"

Yes.

And:

"of course i'd be open to it."

It will take more than openness. It will take time, dogged determination to read and understand lots of literature written by many men of science on the subject of PSI.

"Is it in Prof Tart's webpages."

Quite a lot is. Much more is in his published work, such as Altered States of Consciousness(1990), and many others.

July 14, 2006
1:22 am
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ok well. Saw a TV program, there's this 19 year old guy Adam in Canada. He heals people through energy. Somteimes its miraculous, sometimes it doesnt work. MAde me think of you. he says he can see the energy and says its explainable by science. His sister was HOT. You can see my brain cells are moving downstairs :p. oops. That exlains why I'm "bleah" to everything to do with philosophy now huh.

OMG life is short. I wrote in my thread how hopeless I feel about life. If we're all gonna die in the end, whats the point of trying to live a better life, a better today. What difference does it make if I'm going to die, whether I have a good diet or a bad one, etc. Good career choice or a bad one. How do you deel with this hopelessness. Since me and you dont beleive in afterlife.

July 14, 2006
10:38 pm
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On the 14-Jul-06 you said:

"... ... he says he can see the energy and says its explainable by science."

Even if science can't explain it now, what makes you think that it will never be able to do so?

Through our present ignorance, we brand that which we cannot understand as being "miraculous", 'supernatural' or 'paranormal'. Many things that science now takes for granted were once considered "miraculous".

The borders of superstition are continually being pushed back by science. One day, if the human race survives on earth long enough, I believe that the 'philosophy of science' will even bring about 'gnosis'; that is, a state of human knowledge that will encompass who we are and why we are in existence. Though I doubt that it will be in either your or my lifetime.

I talked to my buddy who has a Physics Degree amongst other quals. He is the guy who took the LSD trip many years ago. I reminded him about what he told me of seeing the neurons of his brain working. He had forgotten about that. He reminded me of seeing the complete irrelevance of this world in regard to that conscious state in which he found himself. He said that in his LSD experience he saw that we humans are kicking a 'silver-plated turd' around on this earth as though it was meaningful to the conscious state that exists after death.

I showed my buddy, Prof. Tart's findings after many experiments using LSD. I posted part of the relevant article on a thread here. He read it with interest and said: "That's how it was for me. Tart's bloody well right!" This guy is a hard headed rational thinker, a man's man, a Vietnam Vet in the thick of it. He is now a practicing Buddhist, the religion of the future - according to Dr. Albert Einstien.

Buddhism is the closest religion to science that presently exists that I know of. Buddhist monks and nuns that I have met praise the philosophy of science and open their arms to science without any fear whatsoever of the compatibility of their beliefs with science's discoveries.

Again I must remind you of the fact that, whilst I like their beliefs and largely agree with them, I am not a Buddhist. My Buddhist buddy agrees with me on this point.

July 15, 2006
9:45 pm
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Interesting. But I dont wanna do anything unless the happy guy with the healthy parenting has to do it too cause thats all that matters in the end for me. My brain has given up on higher intellect pursuits.

wow well, I guess maybe Tart is right. There must be something true, could be.
Yea youre right, science is going further and further

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