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gazelle from support thread downstairs
July 12, 2005
5:20 pm
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just curious, you said you weren't a "Christian" anymore.

care to elaborate?

July 13, 2005
9:17 am
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gazelle
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Hello there, OMW. What a nice surprise to find someone actually writing to me in a new thread! Thank you - I'm cheered up already šŸ™‚

All my life I have been deeply, seriously, devoutly religious. I still am. But for the last 8 years my spiritual insights, growth, development and sense of peace, healing & above all Love have burgeoned incredibly - since I finally escaped from the Christian / Roman Catholic Church. I could no longer defend it morally or politically or overlook its overwhelming force for ongoing evil & suffering in the world.

(see my posts near the beginning of the thread up here about 'WD finally gets some respect.')

For many years I had been tearing myself to pieces (as if by lions!) intellectually & emotionally trying to convolute my logic & reason, my expanding historical & anthropological knowledge, my rationalising theology etc, in increasingly desperate attempts to square what the "Christian" church said with what it did ... and even to make moral & rational sense of all the convoluted doctrines & dogma which, on deeper examination, were cobbled together in the early centuries AD for largely political purposes of empire-building, worldly power & control.

Many of them do not make sense. By which I mean they are neither inherently coherent or consistent, and they contradict each other. The self-styled "church fathers" who invented & imposed the doctrines were horribly misogynistic and unpleasant ... possibly even mentally ill. (eg. Tertullian, Josephus, "St." Augustine etc. I can find references to quotations from their writings to make your blood curdle at their warped views. Women do not have souls ... women are the gates of hell, torturings & murders were encouraged, etc, etc.)

Most importantly of all, very little, if any, of orthodox theology is based on the life & teachings of Jesus. Only on those of the murderer Saul of Tarsus / aka "St." Paul - who of course NEVER EVEN MET JESUS! And who never even mentions Jesus by name in all his self-aggradising rantings. He viciously argued & fought with Jesus' close friends & disciples - esp. Peter the Rock - and imposed "MY gospel" over the Gospel of Jesus.

I will paste a factual post about him & his psychotic behaviour of self-contradictory lies, claimed visions & 'voices in his head' if you like. I have studied this a lot. Why do people believe in his assertions rather than those of other Narcissistic Personality Disordered, self-aggrandising schizophrenics, I wonder?! Or in fact instead of the kind, wise, profound teachings & loving behaviour of Jesus? Staggering.

Fundie "Christians" quote Saul constantly and ignore Jesus - whom S/Paul never mentions!

Now, take the fundamental "Christian" Original Sin doctrine. This asserts that every newborn baby is corrupt, sinful, stained, tarnished. Heading for hell(unless we buy into some proffered set of manmade rules involving power, & usually money too ... hmmm.)

Hell is an imagined 'place' or state of eternal punishment where a vicious god chooses to torture people forever - INFINITELY - for FINITE sins.
Or even, in the case of babies, just for being (wickedly) born!

Fair? Reasonable? Loving? Good?????!!!!!

We are all conceived & born in sin - even from loving, faithful, married parents. The very act of sex is sinful according to many early "Christian" writings! Our natural selves are corrupt, through no fault of our own, before we even start. This, to me, makes a mockery of morality.

There is SO much more I could say about why I feel so wonderfully FREE and liberated since I left the Church! My soul-life is healing from so much oppression, so much judgementalism, so much ...

Jesus, after all, opposed blindly sticking to "the letter of the law" and taught true responsibility towards keeping "the spirit of the law" in deeper understanding - which he taught & LIVED. He broke the Sabbath laws to show that "the sabbath is made for man, not man for the sabbath."

I am healing, growing, & developing the self-respect and love for myself & others that is everyone's birthright, in what I see as a potentially WONDERFUL universe in which we are co-creators ("in the image & likeness of God") and in which true creativity, moral understanding & peace can flourish. For the good of all beings.

I have posted many things all over these boards expressing my disenchantment & even outrage & disgust with the Church's attacks on human rights worldwide, at every level (physical, emotional, spiritual, intellectual, social, political etc, etc.) And about my amazingly joyful liberation & new growth within free-spirited Druidry.

I follow a Nature-based, non-dogmatic spiritual path, which encourages & enables us to develop a true, deeply experiential morality of the heart & mind OURSELVES. Without inflicted fear, or threats, or soul-control-freakery.

We observe & study Nature around us in all its glory. We emphasise ecological awareness for our planet home. We learn flower, animal & tree-lore ... we study the stars & the deep wisdom of our ancestors - married with modern knowledge. We study, respect & revere all nature - including human nature. We bring out the best in ourselves & each other. No rules. We share true fellowship in mutual respect, support & responsibility.

We also study ancient wisdom from our own, indiginous spiritual traditions that were here (western Europe) long, long before the Romans took over our land & imposed by force an imported tribal religion from the middle-east. We look to our past, our present & our future and synthesise all we find best. We strive to use all our knowledge & faculties wisely & well, for the good of all beings.

And many of us revere & honour Jesus highly - especially me.

Enough, enough, I hear you cry!!!

Seriously, OMW, I can either find refs to my postings here about my disillusionment with mainstream "Christianity" and my very good reasons for escaping its clutches.

I would be very happy to cut-&-paste some of them onto this thread, and to discuss or debate with you further on these or any other topics.

I truly appreciate your simple little question! Many, many thanks for giving me a voice on here.

Love & blessings - gazelle.

July 13, 2005
12:01 pm
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hi gazelle,

glad you felt comfortable enough to talk about how you feel...quite a long post, but i enjoyed seeing your thoughts.

i really do not want to debate, and not necessary for me to see the quotes, that would be totally up to you.

i do have one thing to say about "Catholocism". i do not support its, what seems to me, to be rigid beliefs which has basically disilusioned many people. even Martin Luther came along and realized what a farce it was.

i have known Catholics who have become "Christians" which implies just because they were Catholic, meant there was actually a spiritual conversion from Catholicism to Christianity, saying they are now more free than the teachings they learned in the church. Plus they worship Mary...what is that?aplogies to those who do, i am just stating my opinions in regard to Mary.

i am a professing Christian but it is not something i had to do, it was my choice. my sons are "on fire" for God, their choice. my youngest is a bit more liberal, and considers all religions to be important...again his choice.

and then i guess we could debate Paul, etc. but i respect your beliefs, it is not necessary to prove anything to me.

but again, i have very strong opinions about the Catholic church....too many rules, regulations, ceremonies, etc. that are not biblical. it seems to me to be a religion where a relationship with God is not as important as the authority and diety they have set themselves up to be.

so in conclusion, i can see where, in my opinion again, your decision to leave that behind is necessary for you.

thanks for sharing. you seem to be a very intelligent person who has done much thinking and made many important decisions for your self.

omw

July 13, 2005
12:50 pm
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gazelle
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Thanks, OMW. Though your reply confuses me in several places. You say: "i am just stating my opinions in regard to Mary" but you don't state a single one!
You also seem to think that Catholics "worship Mary". They don't. (Obviously I can't speak for every single Catholic, but officially, & in all my life experience, Mary is never "worshipped".)

The Saul/Paul facts are not up for debate. He never met Jesus, never mentioned him, & vehemently opposed his teachings through the chosen disciples. He imposed his OWN 'gospel'. If you read just the New Testament letters of Paul, you will see this, without any further study. His Narcissism - entitlement & delusions of personal grandeur - are glaringly obvious. They worked too! Millions were deceived (as prophecied) and decided to believe in him instead of in the Christ. So the church was hijacked into a wrong direction .... and that was just the beginning of all the evils that followed.

Final point: far from not being "Christian", the Catholic Church is the only vehicle by which modern "Christianity" came to us. All other church cults & sects split off from it & then from each other. (What did Jesus say about "a house divided against itself"?!)

Many tortures, murders, burnings, wars & oppressions resulted - from ALL SIDES throughout history.

On top of the barbarities from the murderous crusades, inquisitions, witch-tortures & burnings, hangings, drawings & quarterings & other unspeakable sadistic "religious" brutality ... to more modern evils like slave-tradings, 3rd-world poverty deliberately engineered by western "Christian" countries' greed & oppressive trade-laws ... to child-abuses, sex scandals, money-grabbing materialism, pacts with Hitler, ongoing "Christian" arms-dealing and lying and open war-mongering ... the list is endless, ongoing & TRAGIC.

These are hard facts. They make my heart bleed. I am bitterly ashamed to have gone along with "Christianity" & its self-righteous, hypocritical brutalities for so much of my life ... thinking I was being "good"!!!

Yours in tears of woe for the suffering of mankind at the hands of this evil institution that STILL abuses & rapes children and lets people die in poverty under its own greedy, wealth-laden eye.

Sorrow overwhelms me. And real, searing grief. I hate myself for having been so blind & misled.

May blessings of peace shine through all this grim darkness of so-called "Christian" injustice, barbarity & fear - to new Hope somehow, somewhere safer & more truly spiritual & loving - gazelle.

can i ever forgive myself for going along with any of this "religion", & even - God help me - teaching it to my innocent children?! Oh disillusion dismay depression.

July 13, 2005
1:39 pm
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wow, gazelle, sound like you have been abused through so-called "religion", and sounds as if you have done much work to be free from those atrocities. i do not blame you.

hope you keep searching for an answer that fits you and your little ones, you seem to be very spiritual in nature.

take care & hugs,
omw.

July 13, 2005
4:29 pm
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Dear OMW - Thank you SO much for giving me acceptance & love when I was fully expecting a lambasting!

Wow. What a wonderful surprise. That is a rare if not unique response to factual criticism of "Christianity"! I am mega-impressed.

My children are teenagers now, and have left the church of their own accord, for very similar reasons to mine, once they began looking at world news, studying a little theology & learning to question manmade dogma.

Their dad is still Catholic. His childhood brainwashing through threats & violence (in Ireland) rules him still. He is not spiritual & refuses to discuss it. He says he only goes to church out of fear of hell if he misses.

I talk about anything & everything with my children and value providing them with the education & resources to make their own spiritual choices. The only thing I won't tolerate is disrespect for Jesus.

I feel soothed, warmed, delighted, humbled by your response. I am beaming a smile of relief through my tears. You are very special, kind & strong!

Many blessings of freedom, love & peace to you & yours - from a much happier Druid gazelle! šŸ™‚

July 13, 2005
4:47 pm
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Thank you for the compliment as well!

I have been keeping up with the thread in support threads, "A heart of love and fear", sounds like quite a bit on your plate. hope it all works out.

oh, and i don't judge anyone who wants to believe what they want to believe...what good would it do? nada!

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