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FYI (FILLING YOU IN) ZINNIE, TWINKS & WD
November 16, 2004
8:40 am
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Juanita
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Got the courage up last nite to tell hubby my 2 requests.

1) No more mention of a certain person he had hopes of me getting to know "better".
2) No more mention of certain "extra" corricular (sp?) activities - AT ALL.

Was worried this whole big discussion would ensue about why, how come, and why not.

He didn't say a word besides "ok"...

I hope this works this time.

J

November 16, 2004
12:08 pm
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Hi J.

Will write more later... but I'm telling you now - follow this up.

If he brings it up again, no "just giving him "the look"" because well as we see... it does NOT work.

Will talk later, on my way out the door to the Dr. Flu season - blech!

November 16, 2004
3:58 pm
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Way to go, Juanita. One correction: "Requests" my ass. Requirements.

November 17, 2004
8:38 am
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Juanita
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Well, I figure he was told what the issues were when I was depressed & in counseling. That latest a few months (his listening).

If he doesn't listen this time, I already have a plan in mind in case it happens again. Not gonna hit him over the head... just take my rings off - that should communicate in no uncertain terms how I'd be feeling.

Sometimes, I wonder if the damage hasn't gone too far already though. I do not feel the passion I used to. Still working on this and giving it time - hoping time heals all wounds.

He really is trying to be more attentive. I'm just still feeling numb in the passion area.

November 17, 2004
11:50 am
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Hi Juanita,

It sounds like you have a pretty good plan.

I hear your pain, but feel like I am missing a big part of the story though--how did you get to this state?

WD

November 17, 2004
10:31 pm
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Juanita
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WD -

I'm sorry - it is late tonite. I will try to post tomorrow on this. The last time I wrote to you, I got myself all bent out of shape from dregging up those old hateful feelings, and was depressed for a number of days. I will try tomorrow to fill in whatever you think may be missing.

November 18, 2004
11:25 pm
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Juanita
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WD -

I am not sure which part you are missing, so I will try to condense things as much as possible (cuz I know you are aware of one definite problem for me).

Basically, my spouse & I were HS sweethearts - neither of us have been with any other. At this point in our lives, we've been together 20 yrs. You'd think we'd have a pattern, right?

For years, it was - he was a work-aholic with a different work shift. I knew he loved me, but didn't have much time for me b/c he'd fall asleep during supper, and pretty much we'd just see one another (quality time) on the w/e's. When I'd get upset (lonely) from not seeing him or spending "couple" time together (because he'd work on w/e's too, fixing up the house, mowing, hedging, etc), I'd say to him - I need some time with you, one on one. Ok fine, he'd say RIGHT AWAY, let's plan a w/e away, or a day trip, or SOMETHING.

When I was pregnant for our 2nd child, he said - there's a lot of work to be done, I'll handle the baby's room; you handle (child #1), the house, and being pregnant. I understood I wasn't allowed to help work - I was bedridden for the end of my 1st pregnancy & they had concerns of my being bedridden earlier in my 2nd. BUT, he didn't go to ANY of my Dr appointments (unlike the 1st time) - he said "you know what to expect, you can handle it".

He met my Dr the DAY our son was born. He took one look at the Dr & I could tell something was up. (this is gonna start getting jumbled...)

Basically, after the birth of our son, I was encouraged to establish a platonic friendship with my Dr. We had many things in common, and he was similar to my spouse in many ways (similar interests, similar humor, etc). So, ok, fine. After we get to know him and his daughter a little better, all 3 of us noticed how well we meshed. There was a comfort level there, the kids played well, their ages were perfect (the Dr said they could have all been brothers & sisters), both men shared similar hobbies and interests. To me, I was so very happy having two such wonderful men around, and I loved having his little girl around too.

Now, it gets interesting - you know what my spouse suggested. I told my spouse I had never been interested in any one other than him & no man even held a candle to him in my mind.

Mind games ensued (or this is what I call it now)... the what if game... what is he did this or did that? I'd say "ah, come on! he wouldn't do that" persistance "but, what IF?" until there was an answer - I'd knock his hand away (as IF this would even ever occur).... questions gradually got more & more risque until the build up to introducing his fantasy. WHAT?!? No way. was my reaction. I wouldn't want to share him - HOW could he think this way? etc, etc... you know this part I believe.

NOW while the good Dr is around, hubby is giving me LOTS of attention, and becoming more like PRESSURE to "land" this man. The basic "No's" didn't work. So, in anger I said "fine, you want a 3-some? Well, I hate being watched & you know this! I'd have to try things on my own for a while first to see how "comfortable" I get" I ws thinking he'd be SOOO insulted he'd stop! NOPE! Instant permission to have an affair - just bring home the details & be safe about it. WHAT?!? Obviously that mind game back fired on me. He even quoted a "Dear Abby" letter he had seen in the newspaper about how a man suspected his wife of cheating & he wasn't mad - he wanted to share in it with her.

My Dr friend got a GF who was much younger than he. My spouse told me my time was running out (to you-know-what). I was SOOO messed up inthe head and heart! You have NO idea. To me, sex is love - not just a physical act. How could my hubby be so willing to give my love away????

Ok - I am shaking now. Fast forward.

Dr moves in with GF. Hubby's attention DRAMATICALLY AND SUDDENLY wanes - to the point of when I ask him or tell him I need some time & attention (like mentioned at the beginning) I was expecting - ok sweetie, lets go somewhere... what I got was "I don't have time for you - I am too busy - and even if I did have time, I don't have anything to talk about"

This is the man I idolized saying this to me.

I was totally heartbroken. The man I trusted had (from my point of view) put me on an emotional and mental roller coaster. How could I hand him my heart & my trust completely again?

When depressed - I was told I was a drama queen, or not to join that "3-ring circus" meaning of depression. He didn't believe me when I stopped talking, went on anti-depressants, and only called me to see if this was all REAL the day of my 1st counsellor appt. He said he'd go if I wanted him to.... That day came, and that day went with him remaining at work. I was told I didn't make myself clear - ("are you coming with me?" wasn't clear I guess)

So, after talking after each counsellor appointment - we felt we had made some progress, opened the lines of communication again, and he realized just how little time he spent with me or the kids, especially me. He's worked on this. and I appreciate that very much - really.

But, I have scars from being wrenched from loved and adored wife, to the woman he tried to offer to up, to the one he had no time for & nothing to say to....

and there is so much more he said that I haven't shared.... disrespectful things. He even said that all the times he said those things about sex - that he was joking. Ah, he gave me permission for an affair? That's joking?? I wasn't born yesterday, but thanks for thinking I'm young.

Now, do you see? It is so hard to blindly trust again. I don't want my heart ripped out again. I don't think I would survive it.

Do you know what this has done to my self-esteem? Surely you have seen me wrestling with this. I've felt like I'm being pimped (slight exaggeration - but it is the way it feels) by my own man.

and why, after all the above, after the counselling, did he bring IT up again? He knows how much it hurt!

That certainly builds trust -
but not in the right way...

Does this explain my torment?

All I EVER wanted was a man I could love and who would love me back. A way to express love is thru sex. Sex IS love to me... or at least it used to be. Now-a-days, I find it is more of a physical act, not so emotional. I miss that.

I miss him not respecting and honoring what I feel are a couple simple requests. He counters I should respect his desire to explore and be adventurous so long as its together....

do YOU think I am over-reacting?

have I provided the missing piece of the puzzle??

blech - now I'm wound up again... time to go cool off.

I wish I knew why all this happened.

November 18, 2004
11:44 pm
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Juanita,

You wrote: "He met my Dr the DAY our son was born. He took one look at the Dr & I could tell something was up. (this is gonna start getting jumbled...)

Basically, after the birth of our son, I was encouraged to establish a platonic friendship with my Dr. We had many things in common, and he was similar to my spouse in many ways (similar interests, similar humor, etc). So, ok, fine. After we get to know him and his daughter a little better, all 3 of us noticed how well we meshed. There was a comfort level there, the kids played well, their ages were perfect (the Dr said they could have all been brothers & sisters), both men shared similar hobbies and interests."

Is there a chance that your husband may have "jumbled" sexuality issues? Meaning HE is interested in the other man?

I think I must have mis-understood your previous posts when we talked - I didn't realize that this "friendship" was something your husband encouraged - for some reason I was thinking you had been friends (on your own) with him for a long time.

That certainly changes things... and yes, I can completely understand WHY you would remove your wedding rings. I mean, aren't the vows "love, honor, cherish and obey?"

But, make no mistake you will have to be very clear as to the why you are removing your rings.

Have you thought about couples counseling? Telling him that he HAS to go if he wants to save his marriage?

For lack of any thing else to say...

Be well.

Z.

November 19, 2004
2:08 am
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Worried_Dad
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Juanita,

Dear God in Heaven.

First, your husband has not been behaving in a loving way towards you for quite some time.

Then, he sets you up so that your attractiveness to him is dependent on your attracting and bedding another man.

Meanwhile there is disrespect and verbal and emotional abuse all over the place.

I'll go a little further than Zinnie. Your husband must have some reason to believe that the doctor would even be into that scene. It's a set up.

This is left field, but it really makes me wonder if your husband has been having an affair with the doctor all along. Maybe he should join the Film Actor's Guild.

Look, I am totally for people being as far out kinky as they like--what the hell, we're going to be dead a looong time. But that freedom only works if people get to be exactly as kinky as THEY WANT TO BE and NO MORE.

Yes, you can respect his desire to explore and be adventurous. WITHIN YOUR MARRIAGE!! Marriage, is after all the union between a man and a woman. Or a man and a man. Or a woman and a woman. Depending on where you live. I don't think any state recognizes the union of a man, a woman and their doctor.

You married your husband and made a contract with him. His insisting on extramarital sex is a DEAL BREAKER!!!! And YOU are simply NOT INTERESTED! What part of "no" is your husband having trouble understanding? Is it the "N" or the "O?" See my thread RE the right to say "No."

Honey, you have the signs. Confusion. Depression. Loss of self-esteem.

A Short Quiz Follows....

Q: What is the number one risk factor for depression and suicide?

A: Intimate partner abuse.

Are you following me?

In other words, you are NOT crazy. Really, what do you think Zinnie would say to this guy if she came over for lunch and he brought this crap up? What would any friend of yours say?

I have heard you voice great curiosity and enthusiasm about learning how be a good lover and please your husband. Lots of guys would give their left testicle to have a wife who actually put consideration into imaginative lovemaking.

And he is sulking, giving you the silent treament, starving you for love, verbally abusing you because you want him to honor his marriage vows???!!!

99.9% of women would be screaming bloody murder. And he is making it seem as if YOU are the one who is at fault? A Drama Queen? That is called crazymaking, and it really, really works.

What. A. Prick.

There, I said it. Prick, prick, prick! Sick prick. Sick, sick prick.

I think he's having an affair. And even if he's not doing it with his little man parts he is doing it in his heart.

This guy's gotta learn to respect you. You gotta respect yourself or this will kill you.

November 19, 2004
2:10 am
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Prick, prick, prick, prick, prick!

November 19, 2004
2:15 am
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And where is his fucking empathy for his wife who is depressed? HELLO?! Your Wife is Depressed!!! Hello, Asshole?! How about extending yourself in love to a loyal wife who is getting sick because of your mistreatment of her! Hello, Earth to Asshole???!!!

I have a whole sack full of "prick" and "asshole" for this man.

He doesn't deserve you.

November 19, 2004
2:16 am
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Smoke is actually coming out of my ears.

November 19, 2004
2:17 am
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Oh Juanita, I'm sorry babe. Real sorry.

Lovelovelovelovelove.

WD

November 19, 2004
3:42 am
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sewunique
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Juanita,

Wake up! Scream, yell, stomp, do something, please!!! It took me SIX years to finally wake up, while my loving, concerned husband had me convinced I was unattractive, fat (at 120# and 5'4), crazy, hard of hearing and shunned me. Yes, I was actually going for a hearing test and hearing aid, only to find out he was mumbling to me!

Tricks!!! Deceit!!! Lies!!! And we believe what they tell us, just to be a good wife and make things work out.

My husband, a teacher, pillar of the community, did soft porn; pictures, of friends, young gals, even my daughter (his step dtr, who is an adult). He says, "because they wanted the pictures." Right answer, buster; we both know our inservices too well on that subject. And, he says 3 bottles of Viagra just didn't work for him. Not on me, he only tried to have sex with his wife 4 times in 2 years; where did the rest of 24 1/2 tab doses go? It took me 2 years to see THIS one, and I STILL have self doubt that things are truely what they seem.

Wake up, lady! I am spilling tears for you reading this. Get validation from your freinds, over and over until you can see it and believe it.

My dear, I embrace you with this hardship, but you gotta get real.

The saying goes; 'be aware of smoking mirriors.'

Sew

November 19, 2004
3:54 am
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sewunique
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Juanita,

Please re-read what you have written, 3,4, a dozen times, and what WD and Zinnie have written to you.

We are all here for you, we really are.

Sew

November 19, 2004
7:53 am
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Zinnie
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Why WD,

You DARE to ask me what I would do if someone approached me?

As if you DIDN'T know... they would be soundly hit on the head with my ever present turkey leg and reminded that I demand fequent tofu checks!

FIRM & still strong enough to cause a fracus with a turkey leg!

Z.

November 19, 2004
8:49 am
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Juanita
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Please understand, while I was going to the Dr's, the Dr was always friendly and chatty with me. When I would get home, hubby would inquire as to how my appt went & I'd be quite honest & tell him about our chats. His comment upon seeing my Dr was that he didn't realize he was so young and attractive (mind you - not my stereo-typical type... short & blonde.... I prefer medium build brunettes). I hope in my heart of hearts that he only encouraged the friendship because the Dr was new to town like us & we seemed to have things in common. He didn't know him prior to meeting him, so how could he have been having an affair (ick) with him.

I strongly believe my husband is not into men. When his brother left his wife his comment was his brother must be gay.

I appreciate (REALLY I do) all the love and support you all have expressed to me.

In my simplistic mind, why can't I just chaulk this up to HIM having a mid-life crisis and not me (as he said I was)?? He does enjoy watching the amatuer porn & I think, perhaps (yeah - just hit me - it's not a perhaps) that he wants me to be his personal porn star. (there, I've said it)

Do you know how much hurt I've experienced from so-called "friends"? Why do you think I came here? No one understood. They just said (in their minds to my imagination) "freak!" and left me. I speak of this to no one around here.

It has taken me a long time to come to where I am b/c I had a hard time accepting that the man I adored for soooooo long could do and say and ask these things.

I felt rejected, not good enough, and broken. I came to wish my Dr friend would want me (THAT would teach my spouse in my mind's eye!). I felt doubly rejected b/c he didn't want me. Poor guy - didn't even know what was going on behind the scenes. He was flirtatious and fun and had a sparkling personality. It never went any farther. Somehow, I wished I could have spoken to him about what was going on behind the scenes b/c I trusted him and valued his opinion. But, I found out, when I asked him for help (meet me to talk, I was very upset and at my lowest) he declined b/c his GF would kill him. We maintained contact over email but that has dwindled. Which is probably a combination of very wise on his part, but also very dumb b/c he's missing out on one very loyal and loving friend.

I still am struggling with certain things. My husband IS wonderful in many ways. I'm thinking right now that he is very THICK headed, and rather insensitive... but as the counsellor said - it is my fault for not being responsible for my own happiness.

Add THAT on top of feeling depressed already. I'm depressed & its my own fault - yippee.

blah - I'm talking too much. I am working thru this and trying to speak up sooner and stronger.

I do feel as if his requests are breaking our marriage vows, which is why if it continues, I contemplate removing my rings to get it thru his head I'm serious. But, I don't want to leave... I want this topic of conversation to stop completely.

Thank you WD, though, for saying some men would give their left nut to have a wife like me .... thank you. You have no idea how much a compliment means to me. Question though... why is it always the left one?? ;o}

Thanks everyone for your support.

November 19, 2004
1:08 pm
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Is this the same counselor who encouraged you to have a threesome?

Look, abuse causes depression, just like loss of blood causes shock. There really isn't anything you can do "inside" to stop the negative effects of abuse, other than become delusional. Your counselor is spouting new age aphorisms.

"but as the counsellor said - it is my fault for not being responsible for my own happiness. "

November 19, 2004
10:27 pm
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Juanita
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No - what my counsellor said was that men wanting group sex was more common than I thought, and that I should take my husband's interest in sharing my as a COMPLIMENT. He said that men who has this fantasy or desire to share consider their women SOOOO hot, they just want to share.

Of course. I feel the same way too .... (not). Why hadn't I thought like that before? Generally, when I have a REALLY good box of chocolates, the first thing I think to do is hide it & squirrel it away to keep for myself. Perhaps I missed the generousity line in Heaven while being created?

Someone once asked me how I could not know he was this way all the years of our marriage. He wasn't this way... I wonder what changed in him, or how he managed to keep this side of himself hidden all these years.

I can't live thinking about these events every day, or I wouldn't be able to function ~ I'd remain depressed. When the "issue" arises again, all I can do is plan to act faster and stronger and more definitively.

;-} Perhaps I should tell him if he ever goofs up again, I'm gonna take a tour of Dallas and Seattle? (sorry WD, Zinnie is used to my re-bound humor.... you did tell me it was a gray house one time right? .... sorry, humor again)

Humor helps to get us (me) thru it all.

Nite all... thanks
Juanita

ps - Sewunique, nice to meet you. Thank you for your concern, and advice... I am sorry for what you had to go thru. Isn't is amazing what us women will miss or forgive? I still have hope though for my situation, so I keep hanging in. It's nice to have the support here.

November 19, 2004
11:37 pm
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Hi Juanita,

You address two interesting factors of your personality that I wonder if you showed to your therapist, or if the dunkle head even picked up on...

The first one being your husband's comment about his brother being gay because his marriage ended in divorce. I'm sure WD being the statistical kind a guy he is will know the exact percentages - but, many times men who make those remarks use them as an offense/defense mechanism. They are so "against or anti" that surely THEY can't be that way right?

Another is using humor or sarcasm as a way of sweeping the problems under the rug vs. dealing with them head on.

I understand completely where WD is coming from in the fact that now reading all the facts laid out in one story - not told over time, it is certainly mind blowing to say the least and sadly does not show your husband in a favorable light.

Not saying he is a bad person, just saying that it appears there might be a lot more to the situation than meets the eye.

You are a human being, and as a human being you have certain rights. Some of those rights include to be treated with love, kindness and respect.

Human beings are by nature sexual, however, the difference between us and the animals is that we were given a mind and a soul to be able to make decisions. One of those decisions is marriage - and within the marriage, we have a legal binding right to expect fidelity. If we didn't, then why bother getting married?

Right?

I mean, we could just stay single and do what ever with who ever when the mood struck us. When we marry, we are saying "I am foresaking all others, for you my partner for life." At this point he is not honoring that.

Just understand what I'm saying here - you need to make sure that he understands what you removing your weddng ring means to you and why.

I will share this much with you. When my husband (now) and I got married, the minute we got home from the honeymoon he took his ring off and put it in the fire proof box we have here. I was hurt, and finally asked him "ummmmm... what is this about." Ready to be angry about it too. My husband looks at me like I'm nuts (he has to do that often) and says "I hate jewelry" and yes, he does. He has several gorgeous watches that I have bought him over the year or he has rec'd as gifts. He will wear them if we are going out, but normally he has this old beat up military issue Timex watch that he had since the 70's - with no band that he keeps in his pocket. He actually started wearing it again because he found a light weight nylon band. BUT... when we go to a function, when we get dressed up to go out AND perhaps the most telling of all? When I was in the hospital having major surgery... he wore his wedding ring.

It's not that I doubt his fidelity to me, as I said he does not even wear a watch... but to me it speaks volumes that when we are out in public or function together, and when I needed/wanted him the most is when he put that ring back on.

So - that is why I say, make sure he knows exactly what it means that you are taking them off.

Talk to you later...

Z.

November 19, 2004
11:54 pm
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You're welcome, Juanita. You have a great thread going with these two.
Sorry if I was harsh or over reacted.
Keep working thru all this....Sew

November 20, 2004
2:37 am
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Hiya

Juanita, sewunique, twinks, Worried_Dad, and Zinnie:

I just wanted to let everyone here know that I have been reading this thread.

I feel for you, Juanita. (((Hugs)))

WD, It's really nice to read from a male prespective. Your first post from Nov. 19 makes me want to hug you and never let you go! =)

I don't know what else to say.

November 20, 2004
2:39 am
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Because I am a perfectionist:

perspective*

~Amanda~

November 20, 2004
2:06 pm
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SweetAmanada,

Thanks for your affirmation. You know, I am a classic Saggitarius. Expansive. Passionate. Blunt.

And sometimes it just all comes venting out. My love. My annoyance.

I am horrified by my helplessness to do much to counter the evil of this world. But one thing I can do is point out abuse.

It kills. It is about murder. The murder of souls. It is wrong. WRONG!!

I know enough clinical psychology to know that this is a stupid question, very stupid.

But WHY?!! WHY DO THEY DO IT?! WHy can't we make them stop!?

Oh fuck, now I'm crying.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I sound harsh sometimes. I just can't stand to see people destroyed.

November 20, 2004
2:21 pm
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Hi everyone - typing on the fly here... gotta run momentarily.

Z - love ya', talk more later...

WD - just had to post ... your sweet thoughts mean alot to me, and guess what?! I'm a Saggitarius too!! 12/21 is my day.

Sewunique & Sweet Amanda - thanks you two, too.

Gotta run! 2 yr old crashing into the cabinets & re-arranging them onto the floor!!!!

Juanita

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