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FOR WD ONLY
July 21, 2004
8:48 pm
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Juanita
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Sorry - seems I may banded before long. Don't know if you know what happened or not. Will not go into for respect to SC.

Just wanted to send this note to you in case I am blocked in the future...

I wish you the best. You have my respect and admiration. Please don't get down on yourself. You are a strong, intelligent, caring man who, thru recent posts, has a lovely sense of humor, & can be flirtatious 😉 Your "loving" comment was as sweet as can be to me. Nice to hear you use that word. These sites are serious, but it is nice to know the human side of our anonymous friends here. Thank you for sharing a bit about yourself.

It was a nice thread you created for everyone. We all need to share in the good times as well to help us all know that we are more than just the reason we came here. We are all wonderful, caring, human beings who've been hurt are trying to heal & possibly help others. Hopefully, I have helped a few people along the way these past several months. I know you have. You are a terrific man. If you think I'm working on building your ego - fine - you caught me. I believe if you have a compliment to give someone - give it - you never know if you'll have the chance again.

I wish you your son back and a love of a lifetime. I wish you peace, joy, and happiness.

Don't know if you are spending time dating or not, but if you don't, please consider it. You are too good of a man to let go. Some woman out there will treat you like gold and bring you happiness. I am sure many of us here are wondering just HOW good of a kisser you are... don't make ALL of us women suffer. Let some lucky special lady out there enjoy.

Don't know if you know all of what I've posted here about my situation, but if you do, I've decided that while I can forgive many things that have been said, I will not forget them. My husband has slacked off on his requests, but I don't doubt they will return at some point in the future. We are doing better for now, but I am no longer as confident as I used to be. I am a changed woman... realizing what someone said about inching your moral line back & self esteem goes with it. Unfortunately, I feel that my line & self esteem have been unrepairably damaged. I am not a treasure, I am a human being. Plain & simple. We shall continue on as before I suppose. He knows that he broke my heart over the comments he's made, and has apologized. Only actions can take it from here. If you don't know my story, and I assume too much - my apologies for rambling.

All my sincerest best WD.
You have touched my heart.
I will not forget you.

Juanita

July 22, 2004
9:46 am
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Juanita,

Thanks for the support, warmth and compliments. Your comments have the sincerity of a goodbye letter or deathbed confession or something.

Seems like you have been a pretty positive person around here--always try to say something nice.

I hope you aren't banned from the board since there are others who have been more....rude. ABout the only thing that gets people banned around here is using two log in names.

You don't seem the sort to do so maliciously.

If you could refer me to the threads where your story resides, I'd like to know more.

Take care,

WD

July 22, 2004
11:11 am
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Basically I'm not sure if this is a goodbye or not. SC says she's banning Z & I. (hey Z... thread)

Basically I came here after my hubby starting asking me to um, get a BF. Several things were said to me which hurt me deeply. "You need a BF, I'd like to watch/join in, hey how about so & so" Mind you, hubby had no time to give me attn b/c he works so much... only was giving attn when he thought another man whom I became friendly with might make his fantasies come true. Hubby, whom I have always told him how I love him & proud of him, is a good dad/husband... tells me he has no time for me/nothing to say to b/c his job boring, knows he should spend more time with me... but can't. Needless to say, I developed feelings for this other man. Hubby nor the other man know the extent of my feelings, and the other man does not reciprocate my feelings that I know of. Thank goodness b/c I'm not sure I could withstand the temptation from this man. My husband, whom I repeatedly told & knew these kind of statements hurt me, did not believe me i guess. Nothing changed until I started counselling. THEN he started to believe how hurt I was. So, as it stands now, I have forgiven him for the hurt, but I cannot forget. I still have feelings for this other man & cannot get him out of my mind. Hubby is making an attempt to spend more time with me & talk more, but this is just history repeating itself. Somehow, I believe if this other man desires me, my self-worth will go back to normal. Silly I know. But I used to be a "treasure", now, I am just so-not... So, here I sit, trying to work on my self esteem, hoping history will not repeat itself as it has in the past w/hubby.

I know how much compliments & appreciation mean to me, so that is why I try not to hold back for others. It could make a BIG difference in their day.

I'd like to stay here, but don't know what SC will do.

Be well Dear Man - You have won a bit of my heart too.

July 22, 2004
11:23 am
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Juanita, I did not say you were being asked to stay off the site, I stated that posting email addresses could be cause for it - I was letting it go at that. I am very dissappointed that folks such as yourself who have been clearly informed about this policy would violate these boards in that way. I am deeply disheartened by it.

If there is ever a question, I would prefer you ask me in email rather than speculating on threads.

Thanks,
- SC

July 22, 2004
12:50 pm
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Juanita
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um, sorry if I misinterpreted ...
not to push the point but I think you can see how I took your reprimand.

"?

What you have both done here (Juanita & Zinnie) is terrible. ....For those that missed the posts, I have deleted posts by Juanita & Zinnie that involve them exchanging email addresses. This is strictly forbidden, and cause for termination from these boards. They both know this.

I'm letting it go at this, for now.

- SC "

Dear WD -

I also feel I need to add to the above response I wrote you - I've been married 15 yrs. Hubby tends to be a workaholic & gets so engrossed in what he does, he forgets I'm around, except for certain things. Over the years, we have done this cycle. Everytime I tell him "hey, I've had enough, I need some attention, some of your time..." In the past this has worked, but this time it didn't - he told me to get a BF to give me that attention. So, now, even though things seem better, I am still not sure. Definitely don't feel like a treasure any more. He tells me he loves & adores me, but it's not having the same affect as before. This is the reason I feel susceptible or vulnerable to another man's attentions. Not that I'm getting any or going to get any. Not sure how to heal a bruised or broken heart. I have never cheated on my man. I have never even really looked at another man until this stuff. I should write a list of what not to say to the woman you care about: I'm sorry I know I should spend more time with you but can't, I want to watch you with another, get a BF, did you have sex with him, he's moving further away its your last chance to bed him, are you pregnant by him, if you get pregnant the baby can live here but he's paying child support... (sigh) worst one was in the middle of a sex "has so & so ever done this to you?" All this I can forgive, but I'm not forgeting. HE was the one who started all this yuck. He still says he wants to list in the swingers magazine or wants me to bring in a man I trust... hey, then maybe we can add a woman for him!

Counsellor says the key not to have hurt feelings is to change my perspective on how I receive the comments - could he have meant them to hurt me like they did? Then I am only hurting myself.

Counsellor says asking spouse for time is a criticism, kill him with kindness & he'll follow by example. Make it so that he'll miss my company & then he'll seek me out. Just have to learn how to "manipulate" my guy as words don't work. I hate that word "manipulate". Telling someone you want to spend time with them shouldn't be considered a criticism - I'd call it a compliment!

At any rate, I've forgiven the comments & let most of the hurt go. I'm thinking of dropping my counsellor and just trying things on my own for a while. I've learned my lesson & what it takes to stay married. Compromise on my part.

Just wish I could feel treasured again. Wishful thinking though.

July 22, 2004
1:09 pm
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Juanita,

I can see how you could misinterpret my statement, and for that, I apologize.

I do however feel an apology to me and these boards would be a good faith effort.

My explicitness and sternness with you and Zinnie here, is in direct regards to the fact that we have personally, explicitly, discussed this one on one in the past. I thought we had a very clear agreement. There is a bridge of betrayal from both of you I am having over this.

It is of utmost importance that you understand and agree not to participate in email/IM, etc exchanges here in the future. These boards exist as they are, almost solely on the foundation of anonymity.

If you want to discuss further, please come to me in email.

- SC

July 22, 2004
2:58 pm
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Juanita
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Dear SC -

I sent you a personal apology yesterday via email to keep this a low key as possible. You know I did not ask for this information, nothing was anticipated or asked for... Personally, I was answered a couple questions, and felt the information provided was done for an urgent and good reason. Knowing both Z & myself, how could I or you think anything less? You have had personal contact from both Z & I. I believe we have, aside from this, shown ourselves to responsible, dutiful, caring, adults who have comported themselves in a manner demonstrating that.

I will apologize to you out here in public for breaching the rules. But again, it was not a planned thing, nor do I anticipate offering such info here, or ever asking for it.

J

July 22, 2004
3:27 pm
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Juanita,

I believe you would send an email but I haven't received it, not in junk mail either. If I did, I can assure you I wouldn't be harping on this so much.

I hope we can put this peacefully to rest here. My final thought on the matter, is that planned or not, there are no buts with this rule. The rule exists for more important reasons than any amount need for a private exchange of information. It must be kept this way with no buts, no exceptions. My apology for this public exchange with you. I need to keep this particular guideline extremely clear for people, and to do this, I do pop into the boards for this.

Peace and over and out.

July 24, 2004
12:05 pm
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Juanita
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Sorry WD - didn't mean this thread to become an alternate conversation.

You've been quiet. Guess my situation is too weird for most people.

That's ok.

Believe it or not, after typing to you Thurs nite, my hubby & I talked some more about all this stuff. He said he was totally broadsided by the fact that I was hurt. Says everything he said was meant to be teasing. Sigh, I can't remain hurt or in the same spot. Had to accept things as they are. Been married too long to do otherwise.

Have a good w/e. Be well.

July 24, 2004
1:06 pm
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He doesn't want to pay attention/spend time with you but he wants YOU to do something to spice up your sex life??! Sounds like all take/no give.

No, asking for your needs to be met isn't "criticism." And there is nothing per say wrong with "criticism."

Kill him with kindness? In other words, give without expecting to recieve--a recipe for codependency (if there were such a thing.)

Look, your relationship isn't steady enough or mutual enough for you to risk advertising in a swinger's magazine--even if YOU wanted to, which you don't it sounds like.

I have heard that couples need to schedule the following activites on a weekly basis as part of their "couple's process."

1) Buisiness meeting/working together
2) Time alone.
3) Intimacy time
4) TIme with other couples.

I dunno. I gotta wonder of your husband is screwing around. Gotta.

July 24, 2004
9:27 pm
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Juanita
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I honestly don't believe he is. If he is, then I'm a fool. Sheesh, I'm always after him. His requests in the last year, though, have become very, ah, kinky. Mid-life crisis? Who knows.

Thing is, I never used to look at men. I was satisfied. No one "caught" my eye. He said he wanted to open my eyes and mind. Men & women fantasize differently. Women envision romance, men envision coupling. At least that's (was) my theory.

Over the past year and all I've heard, all the mind bending exercises, I'm different. My eyes are open, there is definitely a man who caught my attention. Not saying anything's going to happen, but now I definitely view men differently. Am I happy about this? Not really, but there's no going back.

Hubby is afraid of dying young as heart disease runs thru the family. He wanted to know that I would be able to survive and find another mate should he die. He's happier I'm attracted to other men now. Encourages it. Frustrates the hell out of me though.

July 25, 2004
5:20 am
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Are you looking at other men because your "eyes have been opened" or because you are starved for affection?

Okay, kinky requests....other than the watching you/threesome thing?

You could be getting previously concealed kink, or he might be getting outside...inspiration. I could be wrong but I just don't see a guy just changing from vanilla to kinky.

Anyway, if you entered the marriage with expectations and vows of monogamy, then his "requests" could be a deal breaker. Sounds less like "honey could we try..." and more like "you will be starved for love and sex unless you give me what I want."

July 25, 2004
6:18 pm
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Juanita
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Um, no starvation, just wants to experiment more. (I like your comparison of vanilla to kinky - made me smile.)

Eyes opened due to a lack of affection/attention? Yes that probably triggered it - not to mention the permission to have a boyfriend! Plus, this occurred after having our 2nd child. Having another man's attention was a great ego boost. I was feeling unattractive & for a man I considered attractive to flirt with me was a heady feeling. Sweet ambrosia perhaps?

My husband is the only man I've ever been with, and I've been his only one too. Due to his hearing loss ... he is very visual to make up for his loss. Consequently, he in the past year or so has made more visual requests. Being a conservative gal, this has required some stretching on my part.... (no pun intended) Some I will never achieve to his desired lengths, some I have. I'm hoping this middle ground will be enough to keep him happy. (I'm blushing right now.) As I've not talked to many people about what's "normal" in the bedroom .... I'm not sure how much is normal & well, yeah, one thing seems beyond the norm... maybe 2. Just can't bring myself to talk about these deeply personal things to people I see face to face. Afraid of their reaction. Afterall, none of them have ever broached me on this subject either! Maybe we are all in similar boats & sex is just a taboo subject. (Bunch of Yankee Pilgrims we are in MA) Even here, I am hesitant to put into type the requests ... watching me alone, pictures/videos ... that stuff I think is normal I'm just shy about... um, alternate partners & um "entrances" is another thing. Too much compromising on my part.

I don't like being watched doing ANYTHING! Not eating, brushing my teeth, nothing. Can't imagine him watching me with another - but now can envision myself finding out about another. Never could envision that before. Temptation is a weird thing - you want it, yet you resist on a greater level. Perhaps I am over-reacting not having been used to this playing field before, and am making more of this in my mind than I should.

I am greatly trying to move on & accept that attraction to other people is normal, even when married.

July 26, 2004
7:47 pm
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Hi Juanita,

At last a non-DV thread that I'm qualified to answer.

Look,to me your husband telling you to find a boyfriend makes me think that HE wants to play outside the marriage. Most people just don't have what it takes to make an open marriage work--it's real tricky. I recommend that you try to spice things up WITHIN the marriage. Fortunately, that is pretty easy to do.

The "vanilla" vs kinky language is actually in pretty wide use.

My favorite sex columnist Dan Savage says that most of us want our sex partners to be good in bed. That calls for being Good, (skilled), Giving (generous) and Game (willing to try different things.)

Now sex is not the only thin or necessesarily the most important thing in a relationship. But in a sexual relationship, sex is damn important you betcha.

We are taught from an early age (in USA anyway) that sex is a secret, unmentionable, forbidden, dirty thing. And alo a great way to sell everything from soda pop to blue jeans.

Your first (hubby's too) is to get over that sick and wrong mental model of sexuality. Just ask yourself this "How long am I going to be dead?" Then you will see that living it up a little here and now is not a bad idea.

Ready with details, should you ask. Meantime--I recommend brakes on the outside partners theory. Horror stories abound. Did you see spike Lee's "Do the right thing?" Yikes!

And don't even think of getting on a plane to Seattle to visit the incredibly talented but long-deprived Worried_Dad. And then don't take I-5 south until you reach the exit at....Definitley don't turn left on....and whatever you do don't ring the doorbell of the big grey house.

I know, I know, why should you deprive yourself of the mind-bending pleasure of my skillful attentions?..heck if I know!

Meantime, I think you might wanna think of surprising hubby's socks off. Then he might think twice about sharing you with another guy.

XO, WD

July 26, 2004
8:38 pm
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WD -

God! Make my heart flutter! Miss the chance with an incredibly sexy, wise, talented man like yourself, who is a FANTASTIC kisser?? When's the next flight? Leave instructions at the Gate where to go next! I've had very limited lessons - only one teacher - Be like starting fresh again. 😉

Must confess since having child #2 - yes, I have (to me) "spiced" things up.

Out with the cotton/granny underwear & night gowns of pregnacy & in with the lace boxers & satin nighties. Granted not one, but two of his fantasies (out of 5). Became more of an initiator and flirt in my own home. When I pass him by, I give him a little (ahem) lift, pat, or other slight innuedo of "wait till the kids are in bed". Foot rubs & back rubs, nibbles on the ears & shoulders.

Can you believe he used to resist back rubs?? Still does, just not as bad. Do you know how I changed that without trying?? We had guests over & I massaged several of the guests' backs all much to their delight. Amongst all the raves, they said how lucky my spouse must be to enjoy these on a regular basis. I said, oh no, he doesn't like them & doesn't want me to give them to him. They looked at him in shock & said to send me over any time. Since then, he's loosened up & has let me give him some massages. Still resists, but his wall crumbles faster. (I give VERY good FULL body massages.... Where's that gray house?)

I am trying to open up to his ideas more. No, I don't want to have others join us. No, I'm not ready to try converting an exit into an entrance. Nope, nada, yucky. My loss, oh well. Told him HE should go get a BF for that!! He laughed & has backed off of these two requests as I told him how much they bother me & what his chances are.

I just worry that over the years, the cycle of him forgeting about me & not paying attention to me at all will return. Don't think I could take it again. This last time was awful - wasn't considering leaving b/c of the kids but was definitely considering an affair for the love & attention I was missing.

I asked him why he didn't take me seriously until I went to counseling this time - I had told him over & over what was bothering me (no, I don't nag). He said he just didn't believe how serious I was. Err! After 15 years, he should know I don't complain about little things & can handle myself pretty well. When I voice up, its serious. The fact he didn't listen really bothered me & concerns me. He is working very hard to correct this now. Communications are going well. But, like I said, this has all happened before, but never this bad. This is why I went to counseling - to get out of this cycle. Hopefully it will work.

Did I mention I had some boudoir photography done of myself in my 20's?? (This NE gal does have a slightly racy side to her deep down inside.)

Don't tell me you ride a Harley! Think I'll pass out....

Thanks for the love...

XO Juanita

ps: oh yeah ... got any suggestions that would drive you wild? (bad girl, bad girl, cold shower ...)

July 26, 2004
8:56 pm
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It'll come to me I'm sure. For now, any man that doesn't like backrubs....good lord, man!

July 26, 2004
9:20 pm
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Anyway, it seems that you are on the right track--you seem to be aware that the game really starts in the mind--our brain is our largest erotic organ and the most important.

Seems like there are several things to keep in mind RE sex.

First, is that married sex is hugely about love. They don't call it love-making for nothing. I hope. Caring about someone enough to want to please them and liking them enough that you feel attracted are ways of showing love.

There is also a play-fantasy angle. The "candid" photos are a nice touch. The little "wait till the kids are in bed" communication is playful. Different outfits are one approach. You know, I've had my share of unusual experiences but one fantasy that keeps bugging me is simply having sex with a woman who is wearing a skirt or dress (obviously no panties.) I don't know why that one gets me--I think it's about when you are "dressed" you are usually in nonsexual contexts--shopping, at work, giving a sermon...

A new...hairstyle can do wonders.

Don't worry, we'll get to advanced pleasure techniques, toys and alternate entrances in later issues of "Worried_Dad's Sex Clinic." For now, just realize that most guys are really incredibly easy to please, and if you make their sex lives happy they will usually worship you even if they don't like you. If they already love you, then it is a can't lose investment. Of course, SOME people are never happy no matter what you do, but that's another column.

Disclaimer: The opinions offered in Worried Dad's Sex Clinic do not reflect those of All About Counseling or its sponsors. Dr. Ruth usually agrees with me though.

July 26, 2004
11:30 pm
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Did you ever notice that "Sex Clinic" and "Site Coordinator" have the same initials? Coincidence? Music please.

My favorite thing about myself is that I make myself laugh.

Before I get too tired to type. Remember, this is just my impromptu channeling of advice columnists of yore.

1) Sex invokes and creates a subjective experience.

2) Sexual experiences may be autoerotic or shared, social. You are either alone or not while it's happening.

3) Satisfaction, both holistically and with regard to specific sexual experiences is greatly facilitated by, positive autoeroticism. The ability to like and enjoy having a body is a necessary precondition to lechery. Oh and other worthwhile things.

The feminists did this better than I ever can. But honey, the word from the vine is that you really need to learn to be your own best friend. Find out what your body is, what it likes, what it can do. Enjoy yourself. Because after all, many of us spend most of our lives in loneliness.

Think about it. With regards to sex, what do single people (straight and gay) and married people (straight and gay) have in common? What everyone has in common is that potential partners are not always available, even to married people!

They are instead at work or doing household tasks, parenting or business. Or maybe they just have a headache. Or their medication is sapping their lust for you. Or they have to work late. Maybe you have to throw them out of your apartment. There are many good explanations for the well documented condition of nobodiadomeistic syndrome.

Fortunately, the symptoms at least can be treated.

July 27, 2004
9:20 am
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WD & Juanita -

I've recieved a few emails pointing me to this thread.

This thread is sounding like a late night I/M conversation, and is not appropriate on all about counseling.

The tone, the language, the flirting - these elements are for other discussion boards.

If WD would like to continue giving 'advice', it needs to be moved to the liberation brew threads.

July 27, 2004
10:29 am
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Also, Juanita, much as I would enjoy comforting you personally, due to anonimity, you would have to board your flight, make your way here and everything with both of us wearing paper bags over our heads--could be awkward.

Not sure where liberation brew threads are--I'll look.

Other places to look are....Savage Love advice column. Dr. Ruth used to have a site. And who else...Dr Irene? Anyway, there are tons of pro-woman oriented advice sites and columns out there. Google is a girl's best friend!

July 27, 2004
12:53 pm
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Honestly, I find no problem with a little flirtation - especially here where I know you're flirting with my brain & personality. Don't know about you, but flirtation makes me feel a bit better about my day... like someone took the time to make a kind gesture & make me smile.

And, to me, I find it sweet that WD does flirt with me. Like even you said WD, finally something to talk about besides DV. I want soo much for you to have a wonderful, loving relationship happening in your life. I deeply believe you need/ deserve some love and attention of your own. If my flirtatious comments to you make you feel better about your day, or bring you a smile. Great. You never mention if you have been dating or enjoy a relationship now. If my comments get you thinking in that direction, and get you out to enjoy some of what life has to offer... great again. I KNOW you deeply love your boy & miss him, I KNOW you are a wonderful help & inspiration here to many others... what I don't KNOW is what you are currently doing to help keep WD alive, well, functioning, and happy. WD has suffered more than what many others can imagine. I just want to know he's still living life. Please WD, don't spend all your time by yourself, reading or playing your music alone ... You deserve more than that out of life. I want for you to have more than that. If I knew how to clone a gal like me, insert a few extra brain cells, take off a couple of pounds, I'd send her to you.

However, being that I recently broke a rule, I am sure, just like a kid in detention in HS, I am being monitored more closely than others. I have not said anything to hurt anyone, and have not brought anyone into this conversation. There's been no name-calling or rudeness on this thread, yet it offends some people. (You ever wonder why the thread title is what it is?) MIlo created a big hoopla, & I chat quietly... trying to gain new insite & an anonymous, yet trusted & respected man's opinion on the subject. Liberation Thread? Whatever, I don't know how much further this conservation would last any way.

I have tried many new things over the past year or two, but remain puzzled as to how a man who proclaims he loves & adores me & isn't neglected in the "bedroom", can keep getting into the cycle of forgetting about me, the kids, & immersing himself into work, work, work.

To a degree, I want to know if I'm a stick in the mud, if I'm the problem. I don't think I am. In fact, I kinda think my spouse is damn lucky, but maybe I'm wrong. How can I prevent this cycle from re-occurring. Everyone tells me its within my power, yet I'm doing what they say, and it still happens.

Flirtation makes me feel validated, appreciated, and yes boasts my ego & confidence that if I were without my spouse, some men out there would still consider me attractive & a "prize". Ha, I no longer believe the "treasure" bit. Not by a long shot. 🙁

My apologies if I've offended anyone. After what I've been told in the past, my self-esteem has been brought down lower than I've ever felt before, by the one I care about the most. I need the affirmation that what I'm doing is right, that its not me for a lack of trying. Is it that my man is a work-a-holic, is it that men in general all have thoughts like his??? I am trying to understand men. They say men are simple creatures, then I must be stupid because I can't understand what's missing from this puzzle. Maybe after all this, I am just over thinking, and this is my man - get used to it - nothing is gonna change - take the ups with the downs.

July 27, 2004
1:06 pm
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Juanita -

Regardless of the reasons, I ask that you move this kind of discussion to the liberation brew threads (the link is on this page). I have explained, that the tone, language, and overt one on one flirtations on this thread are not appropriate for these boards. A discussion about your husband is certainly appropriate, but these are not flirting discussion boards.

When I make such a request, it is my hope that it will be honored in respect that these boards are run by me. If this request is offensive to you, my apology, but I ask that this request is adhered to.

Thanks, SC

July 29, 2004
11:01 pm
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Juanita
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WD ...

now that this has been moved ...

in out right humor & total flirtatiousness ....

I have two satin blindfolds ... brown paper bags are SOO unattractive!

;-}

XO

J

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