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Fantasy vs. Fantasy
December 19, 2005
8:22 am
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"Women are made to feel controling any time they feel they have the right to expect certain treatment, no matter how fair."

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that when women feel they have a right to something, even something fair, they tend to become controling and insecure? Or that others tend to make them feel that they are controlling when they feel they have a right to something?

"ANd for that matter, we can't EVER know what is going on in a mans head, but with what is out there, how can we not have a pretty good assumtion?"

I think we agree on this. I interpret this as when a woman knows what things her man is looking at (porn, for instance), she can reasonably infer what he's thinking. Is this right? I want to be sure I understand you correctly.

You're a woman, exoticflower. May I ask you a personal question? Would you prefer that your partner keeps his thoughts on you while making love? I haven't asked a woman this question yet, but have assumed they would in general would prefer this, based on comments I've seen and experiences.

December 19, 2005
8:30 am
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Worried Dad,

{My training is that the way to have a fulfilling lovemaking experience is to totally devote your attention to appreciation of your lover, to be totally present with them and to soak up their spiritual essence...

Her husband is so distracted by his fantasy of what he doesn't have, that he cannot appreciate what he does have, namely, a devoted woman who really loves him and wants to make him happy. He would rather be miserable and sulk like a child than be an adult and enjoy an adult relationship with his wife...And that is pretty sick.}

Yes! This is exactly what I think, too. Only I think the wife has the right to expect that her husband will work on acheiving such a state, where he can appreciate her and see what he really has. He might not actually do it, or only do it some of the time, but he might get lax in this department unless somebody puts some expectations on him. And the fact that he might not do it doesn't let him off the hook.

Society ought to also put these expectations on him, to work on acheiving such a state. This is another reason I disdain porn -- it too easily distracts us men from acheiving it (a few exceptions notwithstanding, maybe). I don't know if porn is involved in Juanita's case, however.

December 19, 2005
8:45 am
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WD,

I just checked Juanita's original post, and she said "My spouse didn't have (or didn't voice) certain 'requests' of me until watching porn - the desire to video, go in the Out Door, to watch his 'beloved wife' be made love to by another man or MEN - to he himself want to 'explore' other women. His expression of these desires, combined with other communication issues, has caused much heartache."

Another example of how porn affects men! It's sad. I don't understand why you aren't up in arms about porn yourself. You've certainly seen a lot of women suffer, whether by feelings of their partners being unfaithful or divorces, when their men used porn.

You claim it's because they are using it irresponsibly, but we haven't established on this thread that porn can even be used responsibly. And the only benefits cited of it have been that it's helped some men enjoy sex more with their partners, or with themselves. I'm sure they could find other ways to enjoy sex more with their partners; porn's not the only solution to this.

And what are these benefits compared to the costs -- feelings of being cheated on in women, broken marriages, shattered children? Are the supposed benefits worthy of even being compared to the costs?

In any event, there are a lot of men who don't use it responsibly, and it can be devastating, and unfortunately, it is the women who suffer the most from it.

Us men have a moral responsibility to prevent our women from suffering like that.

I'm going to wrap up the discussions I'm currently involved with on this thread and then exit this thread. I've had my say on this subject and it's becoming draining on me.

December 19, 2005
10:33 am
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seekerw,

No, I don't really think that there is such a thing as irresponsible porn use, except if you are showing it to minors or something. If your addicted that could be a problem, too, but only if you miss work, or fail to do other essential things.

The problem with Juanitas husband was not that he did not use porn responsibly. His problem was not that he fantasized about anal sex and threesomes--those are pretty common fantasies, existing long before porn, and there is nothing wrong with him having those fantasies. There is nothing wrong with his asking his wife to indulge his fantasies.

And if his wife does not indulge his fantasies, he is perfectly within his right to find a new wife.

People often believe that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Do you propose that we build a wall so that they do not know that there is another side to the fence? Poke their eyes out? Would that solve anything?

His problem was not caused by porn, and porn is not his problem. I dont believe that if he had never seen porn he would never have had this problem. It's like wife beating and alcohol. Without alcohol you just have a sober wife beater. Add alcohol, a drunk wife beater.

This man's problem is that he is a selfish, immature, disloyal little prick. Adding porn can't create all that. And taking it away wont cure it.

Anyway, I've asked you before, and I'll ask again: What is YOUR proposed solution to "the great porn problem?"

December 19, 2005
10:38 am
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Seekerw wrote: "the costs -- feelings of being cheated on in women, broken marriages, shattered children? Are the supposed benefits worthy of even being compared to the costs? "

Marriages are ruined for 3 reasons: 1) His misbehavior or emotional problems.

2) Her misbehavior or emotional problems.

3)Basic incompatibility.

If a woman breaks up her family, shattering the children because she feels "cheated on" when her otherwise well-behaved man looks at porn, then we have a case of the marriage being broken up because of the emotional problems and misbehavior of the woman.

Psychotherapy could help a lot of these women.

I believe those costs would not be incur

December 19, 2005
12:11 pm
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And, in the interest of equal representation, here is a rant from "Best of Craigslist"

Porn Has Completely Destroyed Me

There was a time - I'd say pre 1999 - when I would have tolerated a girl with an errant fat roll, a mildly problematic ass, or even non-porcelain veneered teeth. And come to think of it, I might have even green lighted a B cup chest.

But with the installation of the high speed cable modem, alas, I am sad to say that those times have now passed. I now only want - and will only solicit affection from - girls with killer porn star looks and behavior.

I am ashamed and I do not like what now stimulates me, but the Internet, with all of its quick fix, crack-like vices, has made me extraordinarily intolerant.

Are you a Tufts or Harvard grad and a great conversationalist?

Not important.

Do you have a quirky sense of humor and a knack for cooking Asian Fusion cuisine?

Don't care.

Would you like to discuss the sub-text meaning of the whip sawed brush strokes of that Kandinsky painting at the MFA?

Fuck off.

Be the source of a blood rush and make me throw a rod in my pants or kindly turn into anti-matter.

I am ruined. I am dead on the inside. I am ashamed and embarrassed of what now stimulates me and I know that I am irrevocably changed for the worse. For all practical purposes, Internet porn has destroyed me.

So who am I? Not who you'd think. Not the dandruff-haired blob of shit in the cube next to you. Not the UES Michigan frat boy. Not the faux disheveled Downtown hipster with the silly retro Puma sneakers.

Sadly, I am the "normal" one that you're actually interested in. Cultured, eloquent, well dressed. I am the one you discuss with your girlfriends over Sunday brunch. I am the one you hope to bump into at Karen's pajama themed apartment party. I am the one who takes the lead, holds doors, and hails cabs.

Shit.

Do you dream of a man who will "love you just for you?"

Do believe that you have peripheral, intangible qualities that men of substance will key upon and gravitate to?

Do you shun the gym in favor of The Apprentice and a pint of Ben & Jerry's Chunkey Monkey, thinking that your black cigarette pants will sufficiently mask any belly spillage or ass expansion?

Then forget it. It's game over. You're a walking, talking non-compete clause and you're going to end up alone with a slobbering oversized Rotweiller named Chuckles.

Pull your head out of your ass and be advised - porn viewing/obsession is spreading like the plague amongst my gender - upping the already unrealistic physical expectations, pushing boundaries in the bedroom (you're down with anal, right?), and providing instant, customize-able sexual highs with the push of a button.

If you're female and you don't posess prodigal, Einsteinian caliber intelligence that would propel the cause of humanity forward, and, if you don't relish the idea of being alone, then . . .

. . . throw every last dollar you have at your physical appearance.

I'm serious. Personal trainer. Porcelain veneers. High-end boob job. Get scared and get it done.

Do not extend my gender any credit. Do not hope that a guy will be in awe of your cello playing, your VP title, or your cute apartment.

I promise you he won't care. Don't kid yourself into thinking he will. Men are programmed to respond to the visual.

Look good or you're alone.

December 19, 2005
5:10 pm
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On the 18-Dec-05 you said:

"Isn't he then...just a slave to his biology?"

I think not. I think that both 'nature' and 'nurture' play important roles in making us who we are.

It is my impression that little Johnny as soon as he notices mum's pubs is abruptly bustled out of the bathroom and excluded from 'women's business'. Hurt and puzzled Johnny soon goes off to play with his mates. If he's lucky enough to get away with it he might play 'doctors and nurses' and 'you show me yours and I'll show you mine'. But... if he gets caught he's in big trouble - much more than his sister is, it seems to him.

Little Johnny hears the bumps, grinds and groans emanating from behind the closed bedroom door. He might at best snatch a peek at dad 'fighting' mum before a 'bark' sends him on his way. There is something mysterious and powerful between mom and his older sisters legs that grown men seem to want.

Later on in early puberty, he discovers that nice girls don't just give this mysterious thing away that easily. He has to do certain things to get to the 'prize' that was hidden from his eyes previously.

Some guys seem to him to be better at 'scoring' than him. But he can by simply pushing a few keys on a PC keyboard get to a smorgasboard of pubs, shaven pussies, arses, tits and you name it. But still he yearns for more.

--------------------

On the other hand, little Joey the gorilla, is born naked and stays that way for life. Neither did his mom nor his sisters ever wear clothes. He sees from day one exactly what females have between their legs. No mystery there. Why he has even clung to mom's breasts while dad 'does' mom from behind. He's even seen dad's penis pumping in and out of mom to the point of boredom. He has watched his aunties, uncles go at it no holes barred from day one. Where is the mystery for him?

Why is there such a fuss that humans make about plain ole sex, Joey muses. He watches from his cage in the zoo these strange critters called humans all 'covered up' acting out their strange ritual parts.

Looking at photos is no substitute for the real thing for the now grown up Joey!! And the real thing for Joey is no big deal anyway as long as he is big enough and powerful enough to drive away the 'batchelors' who seek to overthrow him and take away his 'harem'.

Strange creatures these humans, thinks Joey. In public, they even hide in a strange little rooms with closed doors marked 'Men' and 'Women' to do what comes naturally to us gorillas.

They secretly look at photos and moving pictures of other humans going for it in all sorts of strange ways. They get erections and do it with their hands!!! Do they expect to get a baby that way?? Hmmmmm! Perhaps humans are stupid?

Joey will never understand these sad, pathetic, distant cousins of his, called humans. Perhaps one day they will be liberated enough to overthrow their strange habits and to act naturally and as lovingly as we gorillas do, thinks Joey. But they have a long way to go, thinks Joey. Will they ever learn! Off Joey goes to eat a banana and to watch, observe and to just 'be' in the world in which he lives. Such is life.

December 19, 2005
6:46 pm
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On 18-Dec-05 you wrote:

"Of course, gorillas and most primates have an explicit estrus cycle, whereas huimans have concealed ovulation and the opportunity for sexual intercourse 24-7, 365 days a year.

I think that is part of what accounts for human obsession with sex."

Perhaps it is a "part of" it. But I suspect that it is much more.

I intuit that 'fear' is very often(but not always)a driving force that drives this human obsession with sex.

It isn't at all obvious at first glance that this might be so. But deep reflection on human behaviour points me strongly towards this tentative hypothesis.

One very gruesome story has always stood out in my mind. I was attacked as being totally insensitive by someone on this site for recounting it. She missed my point in doing so completely. So I just let it go.

The true story was about horrific experiments performed in Nazi Auschwitz extermination camp in WW2.

The experimenters were trying to find out how much cold their soldiers could stand on the Russian Front before seccumbing and dying.

With Prussian precision and austerity they were freezing male prisoners, both Jewish and Russian, warming them, refreezing them in cyclic steps to a lower temperature each time until they wouldn't revive at all. The temperature at which death occurred was recorded and the experiment repeated with another male prisoner and so on and so on.

Because of Germanic efficiency, the experimenters used 'prostitutes' to 'warm up' the male subjects prior to refreezing them. Further, the ever efficient German scientists noted down all the prisoners reactions as well as physiological data. Nothing was to be wasted except respect for human life.

One thing stood out as paradoxical was the fact that in many cases, the 'subjects' got erections and either attempted or had sexual intercourse with the prostitutes. One would think that in such dire straits when facing certain death, sex would be the last thing on anyone's mind.

Fear certainly would have been rampant that's for sure. Yet the sex drive seemed to predominate. Was fear a correlation or a causation of the strong need for sexual intercourse at such times?

I took a trip to England in the middle of winter. I was an Aussie dressed in Aussie clothes. I bloody nearly froze. I was alone in a strange country, no friends, and only my 'hip pocket nerve' between me and the life of the hobos huddled together in the crypts of old churches. My sex drive shot through the roof. I went for a sauna, an all over highly tantalizing 'massage' and a very professionally administered nookie. I went back to my hotel room and wanted more!! How could I??? So a couple of hand cranks later, I still wanted more!! So I did some deep reflecting upon what it was that I 'really' wanted. I wanted flesh on flesh as intimately and as connectedly as possible. I wanted to crawl right up inside the woman's vagina and would have done so if I could have fitted. I wasn't looking for an orgasm at all!!! I was behaving just like the subjects in those horrendous Nazi experiments!!

I have a very interesting video wherein a pantiless woman wearing only a neglige straddles a TV set whilst an electrician on the TV screen demonstrates how to change a light bulb. Anyway, it results in the 'little' TV electrician, after much fondling with the light bulb(clit), being sucked up off his ladder through the top of the TV screaming all the way up the womans vagina. It is quite hilarious to watch but very Freudian in its import.

Putting all of the above together and much, much more, it appears to me that some of us males both yearn for and yet resent at the same time the 'overprotectiveness' of our mothers. Such individuation originating yearnings simultaneously for and against infant dependencies it seems to me underpins much of these unconscious fears and conflicts that arise in male sexuality.

Objectifying the pussy either in porn or within the male mind gives the freedom from 'motherizing' oppression while yielding its fear reducing benefits of being at one with the source of all human life, the 'pussy'.

Ame I right or am I overgeneralizing from the particular to the general????

December 19, 2005
11:49 pm
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Hi WD,

"There is nothing wrong with his asking his wife to indulge his fantasies.

And if his wife does not indulge his fantasies, he is perfectly within his right to find a new wife."

That's right, WD, let's play on the fear women generally have that their husbands will leave them. Most women want to please their husbands anyway, probably more so than vice versa, in general. They might very well indulge him, and pretend to like it, but feel cheapened, dirty, used, etc. in the process. But that's all right, isn't it, as long the man is indulged? He can always throw her away and marry somebody else, if he likes. (I'm being sarcastic, of course.)

I'm really trying to be calm and not get worked up on this subject. I'm breathing slowly and deeply.

I'm also getting tired of being the only one carrying the anti-porn baton on this thread. Isn't anybody else on this thread as up in arms against porn as I am? Am I really so out of touch with everybody else? If so, please speak up because I am sorely tempted to say no more about this whole subject.

December 20, 2005
12:04 am
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WD,

{Anyway, I've asked you before, and I'll ask again: What is YOUR proposed solution to "the great porn problem?"}

Sorry, I must have missed your asking me this previously.

My solution? Simple. First, I refer to testimony given before the US Senate by Dr. Mary Anne Layden,
Co-Director, Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology Program,Center for Cognitive Therapy University of Pennsylvania:

"There are no studies and no data that indicate a benefit from pornography use. If there were a benefit, then pornography users, pornography performers, their spouses and their children would show the most benefit. Just the opposite is true. The society is awash in pornography and so in fact the data is in. If pornography made us healthy, we would be healthy by now.
"

I propose to stamp porn out. Drive it back into the cheap, dirty, windowless stores that most people are ashamed to be seen in. Get it off the internet as much as possible. I know this can't be done completely, but neither can we totally eradicate crime, and yet we do our best to do so.

Also, I propose to teach men to embrace the idea that sex is between them and a real, living, breathing partner, and to focus on gratifying her needs and trust that she will naturally focus on gratifying his. That's just the way women are: if their own needs are satisfied, if they feel loved and protected in the relationship (and oftentimes when they don't feel this way), they will go out of their way to satisfy his needs.

That's my solution.

If anybody thinks I'm being too pie-in-the-sky, too idealistic, have my head up in the clouds, please tell me. I want some feedback on this matter. I'm starting to wonder if I'm out of touch with everybody else.

December 20, 2005
12:16 am
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Seekerw wrote: "the costs -- feelings of being cheated on in women, broken marriages, shattered children? Are the supposed benefits worthy of even being compared to the costs? "

Marriages are ruined for 3 reasons: 1) His misbehavior or emotional problems.

2) Her misbehavior or emotional problems.

3)Basic incompatibility.

"If a woman breaks up her family, shattering the children because she feels "cheated on" when her otherwise well-behaved man looks at porn, then we have a case of the marriage being broken up because of the emotional problems and misbehavior of the woman."

Two things:

1) women will typically suffer through just about anything in order to keep their marriages going, things that are very unhealthy for them. Just look at the postings on this site if you don't believe me. The typical woman is certainly not about to dissolve a marriage just because she feel cheated that her "otherwise well-behaved man" looks at porn.

2) Studies have shown that porn tends to be addictive. Her "otherwise well-behaved" husband who views porn today is almost certain to become her "not-so-well-behaved" husband who views porn tomorrow.

"Psychotherapy could help a lot of these women."

Perhaps. It would certainly keep the psychotherapists employed. But what might help more is if the husband stayed off porn.

December 20, 2005
12:35 am
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Hi Worried_Dad,

Referring to your post beginning, "And, in the interest of equal representation, here is a rant from "Best of Craigslist"

Porn Has Completely Destroyed Me"

How can you continue to defend a man's supposed right to use porn after a story like that, and after hearing from the women on this site who've told you about broken marriages and relationships from their partners using porn?

I don't see how you can do this in good conscience.

I'm through with this thread. I've been beating my head against a wall. Nobody has expressed any support at all for what I've been saying in my posts here, even the women who have been devastated by porn. The other guys on this site all seem to support the use of porn. I'm doing no good here at all.

WD, I cannot continue to talk with somebody who doesn't seem to have a conscience on an issue. I'm willing to talk with you on other matters, though.

December 20, 2005
1:47 am
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Tez,

“It is my impression that little Johnny as soon as he notices mum's pubs is abruptly bustled out of the bathroom and excluded from 'women's business'. Hurt and puzzled Johnny soon goes off to play with his mates. If he's lucky enough to get away with it he might play 'doctors and nurses' and 'you show me yours and I'll show you mine'. But... if he gets caught he's in big trouble - much more than his sister is, it seems to him.”

You know, you might have something there. In childhood, regarding the genitals we clearly get the message: DON’T LOOK AND DON’T TOUCH. Few things outside the sex organs consistently carry that message, except maybe dad’s gun. This makes perfect Psycho-Analytic sense, since sex and aggression are the twin cornerstones.

Conditioning does seem to play a major factor in adult predisposition, but I don’t think we can discount biology.

You said: “I intuit that 'fear' is very often (but not always) a driving force that drives this human obsession with sex.
And you said: “One thing stood out as paradoxical was the fact that in many cases, the 'subjects' got erections and either attempted or had sexual intercourse with the prostitutes. One would think that in such dire straits when facing certain death, sex would be the last thing on anyone's mind.”

As I read the accounts of fear side by side, I couldn’t help but to search for the similarities. You felt fear and anxiety due to being alone in unfamiliar territory. The concentration camp victims clearly felt many dimensions of fear and anxiety due to watching and expecting death. It seems to have made you both want to reach out for the comfort of the vagina.

Perhaps, the broader biological message here is that in times of great threat and anxiety, one way for the male to “survive”, is to plant his seed (sperm) and hope it grows?

In this case, it wouldn’t matter if protection were involved (because contraception is relatively new concept and foreign to the evolutionary process). It wouldn't matter if the necessary/traditional cavities were penetrated, because men the "act" is being carried out and the "act" is what men are biologically hardwired to perform for survival.

December 20, 2005
3:28 am
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Well, Seeker,

That rant from craigslist is a satirical essay intended to illustrate the ridiculousness of some of the arguments made against porn.

As far as my conscience goes, I might as well ask you how can you live with yourself if you have not dedicated yourself to the church of the flying spaghetti monster, or built a UFO landing pad to welcome our soon to arrive alien guests, or donated money to the preserve the image of the virgin mary found in a burrito fund. It is not a matter of morality--It is a matter of understanding.

One more time....Just like I have heard NO scientific evidence for the effectiveness of homepathic medicine, NO scientific evidence supporting the theory of Intelligent Design, have heard NO compelling evidence supporting the war in Iraq...

I have also NOT heard a single story about the negative effects of porn on this site. Beyond the occasional addict, I have not heard a single story of the "negative effects of porn" from anyone anywhere, EVER. I have heard about people being offended by it. What hurt their marriages WAS NOT PORN! It was either the fact that their husbands were lousy husbands of their own PROBLEMATIC REACTIONS to porn

Am I to ban everything that becomes a point of controversy between couples? For example, I think we can safely say that ALCOHOL causes a lot more destruction to families in America than porn--just in deaths alone. Should we ban alcohol? Next maybe we should ban golfing, or Football, or "Sex in the City."

When people have extreme reactions to something like that, I tends to think that it is the offended person who needs help, not the person who is found to be offensive. I mean really, if you want to take up a cause, would SMOKING be a more worthy one?

Seekerw, you are just making things up that just arent true, and then getting upset about the things that arent true.

Answer me: How can it be that:

1) Porn were is an evil thing that ruins men's souls, and leads them to be "not so well behaved."

AND

2) Most men have looked at it--

Then why is it that most men are decent, loving, honest people?

Now if you were talking about crack cocaine, then we could actually make a case for behavioral and psychological problems associated with use.

And you are talking prohibition? Nothing personal, but my way of thinking that is sick, wrong, evil, and un-American.

Next your going to argue that we ought to ban marijuana.

December 20, 2005
5:15 am
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Anyway, this stuff is not really my specialty--I just got into it because I am a scientist and a constitutional libertarian.

My special ares of interest remain

1) Abuse and domestic violence

and of course

2) Humor.

December 20, 2005
1:59 pm
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This has turned into a very wide spread heated thing hasn't it?
I will admit I have gotten to the point of skimming rather than reading. Maybe I am not as intellectual as I would like to see myself. Maybe, I am in fact a purictanicl counry hick. But I am fairly happy being that. A few scars and rough edges but I am working on those. Might be part of the reason I come here to read some debate on issues of the mind and so on.
My personal values on "porn" are all I have to base an opinion on. What I consider normal from my value system.
With that said it makes a lot of difference to me how porn is defined.
Playboy/Playgirl or hardcore how kinky can we make this films.
Playbory/Playgirl and if you want to toss them in, romance novels. While not personally interested in them, I look at them as sexual version of daydreaming or whatever you like to classify it as. Harmless, normal and fun stuff.
The latter, I personally don't look at as normal or harmless. While I am sure it can be argued otherwise. And that has been done to much extent.
I have several personally based opinions as to why I don't care for that or can't agree morally with someone who does. Don't mean to say I am right or wrong. I feel that way.
I feel it promotes the age old double standard of good/bad girls. There are "those" women. And, oh mamma, let me look at that. Might even be somwwhat more exciting because of the inferred taboo involved.
If any one here can honestly say they could anounce in a crowded room of people they would like to impress that an important female in their life was a porn star as proudly as they could say she was a surgeon or what ever profession you place in high regard then you can tell me this double standard does not exist in your mind. If you can not do this you can not tell me it is repectful toward women. It is not about how much money they make or the personal choice of the women involved. It is a point of how society collectively looks at them. I will admit I could not do it.
As for the question of porn being a form of infidelity to one's mate. Depends on how the two individuals involved view it. For me, my personal value system would cause me to question how compatible for me someone who found watching people f*** for money on film was with mine. Much as I would question if I would stay involved with some one who saw nothing wrong with prositution, either physical or corporate.
In a perfect world every woman's sexuality is her choice and her business. She should be free to express it as her value system dictates. That is up side of the so called feminist movement. A term I have problems with. Basically because I am person and don't feel being a woman or man should have anything to do with what you can expect to accomplish in your life. We all have the right to be healthy, respected, successful people. Gender has nothing to do with it. But I do feel this liberation or what ever you choose to call it has placed young women in a slippery spot. While being told they are free ot express this sexuality, they are still living with the double standard and all the inherited phycological and physical risks of being women. When the free will sexual thing is promoted and made available to them before the emotional, mental, and self appreciating moral aspects have matured it creates a problem. Is porn to blame? Not really, but it does seem, as has been illustrated in these posts, to create a very heated moral and mental conflict. So while morality and personal ethics can't be legisilated, I don't feel the "porn" thing is a positive influence in society. But then there are a lot of things that would fall in that list.
So in answer to the original question. No for me porn is not normal. Just thinking out loud.

December 20, 2005
4:08 pm
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20-Dec-05

"Perhaps, the broader biological message here is that in times of great threat and anxiety, one way for the male to “survive”, is to plant his seed (sperm) and hope it grows?"

Yep! Inherent fear manifests in subtle ways. Plants even seem to desperately reproduce in harsh conditions. Nature seems to have a thrust for life.

My main point amongst all the clutter of my post was that, when confronted with two fear based needs,one for sexual protection, reproduction, survival and another for sexual freedom, pornography may well be the best compromise that some males can find; that is, the former sexual need is constraining while the latter is 'liberating' imprinted sexual desires.

Is pornography the best compromise such poorly parented males can get?

Of course extremely well parented males would have no such conflict to resolve in porn. This may be why some males can either take or leave porn alone whilst others obsess over it.

December 20, 2005
5:02 pm
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Seekerw

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread and I'm a fool so here goes ...

I ask myself the question:

"Where is Seekerw's anger coming from?"

I re-read your post. I think that I can see your point very clearly. Please correct me if you think that I have got it wrong.

You believe that you are in a struggle with an inner conflict between pleasing your husband sexually and doing things that are repulsive to you. You believe that porn is perverting your husband's sexual preferences and therefore porn is to blame for setting up this inner conflict in you; that porn is putting your marriage in jeapordy.

How am I going so far? Is this how you see this porn issue - at least in part?

I equally think that I can see WD's point too. If I have understood his point, he is saying that the problem lies within your husband not porn per se; that he would manifest his sexual preferences anyway, sooner or later. If your husband is a "jerk" he was a "jerk" before he watched porn. I think WD would also say that if your husband was not a "jerk" he would be sensitive to your revulsions and not expect or want you to do anything offensive to you anyway, despite his sexual preferences.

How am I going WD? Have I understood your point of view?

I see that the focus has now shifted to become an issue about freedom of choice; about rights to limit those choices, to impose one's own moral values and points of view on others, with the force of legislation behind such rights.

Absolute freedom to do whatever one likes is no freedom at all for anybody. Likewise despotic tyranny has the same outcome.

There must be some balance between the two extremes. A true democracy inherently treads a fine line between anarchy and tyranny.

I remember as a horny young 15 year old at work in the 1950s, looking at a French artistic magazine filled with photos of lithesome naked women with their vaginas completely blurred out.

An old guy, younger than I am now, 'sprung' me!! He said in a stern threateng voice: "You know that you will get the sack if you are caught with that?"
Today, that same book would probably be exhibited for sale at any church bazaar without turning a puritanical head.

Where does society draw the line and who should dictate where that line is drawn?? WD? You? Me? The Muslims? The Catholics? The Hindus with their Karma Sutra??

Perhaps we would do well to focus more on parenting. Perhaps some small fraction of the almighty yankee dollars that are spent on armaments would be better spent funding scientific research into the effects of poor parenting on adult behavior.

Perhaps education programs in schools enlightening young potential parents to be about these findings would eventually stiffle the demand for porn, weapons of wars and thus war itself, divorce courts, jails, law enforcement agencies, etc.

In a nutshell, perhaps we should be channelling our emotional energies at the core of the problem rather than at the myriad of symptoms, pornography being only one and by no means the worst.

We were kicked out of the Garden Of Eden. Perhaps we now have to earn our own redemption not by forced abstinence but by enlightenment! On that road, the social sciences, if well funded and well orchestrated, are our torches on that journey.

December 20, 2005
8:53 pm
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Yeah, you got me Tez. That and the free speech thing. And the science thing.

I dunno, seems like we are becoming a kind of superficial, soulless society. Everybody so stuck in their own little worlds.

I'm not surprised that husbands and wives don't know how to love each other.

December 21, 2005
3:10 am
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Tez,

It's good to hear from you. Your willingness to jump in and make inferences is admirable. However, I had to laugh when you describe me as struggling to please her husband sexually. You see, I'm a guy who been separated from his wife for almost two years now and hasn't had any sex for a few months longer than that. So no struggles to satisfy anybody in that department.

I just happen to feel very strongly that porn is not good for anybody. I had a bad experience with it myself that hastened the demise of my marriage, you see, and I don't want to see anybody else go through that.

Anyway, take care, Tez. It's good to hear from you and I don't intend to visit this thread anymore. Please feel free to create a new thread if you want to reply.

December 21, 2005
3:22 am
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WD,

I'll reply to you one last time on this thread. Then I'm off for good and I won't be checking it at all.

I don't want to get into anything else with you on this issue. Maybe I misunderstood your intent on that post from craigslist.com, but you didn't explain when you posted it that it was a spoof, and I'm not too familiar with that site.

It doesn't change the main gist, though. You may think I'm making things up, but I know how I feel on this issue and I have not made anything up to my knowledge.

Like you, I have a great respect for science. I have a BS in physics and coursework towards an MS in physics. However, I also know that science can only tell us about the observable, physical, tangible world. It can't tell us about the spiritual world or about morality or about other things that cannot be discerned by physical senses. These are beyond the realm of science, but equally as valid in my book.

Take care. If one of your specialties is humor, I haven't seen much evidence of that lately. Maybe we both need a break from this subject.

December 21, 2005
10:47 am
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Well, although seekerw wont be reading this, I can say that actually, science really can tell us things about morality.

For example, it was science that helped us understand that tobacco companies were being unethical in their marketing practices. Science helped us discern that tobacco is actually harmful, and that the corporate representation that it was not was immoral.

Science is also about common sense. When a skinhead says "I had no choice but to shoot him--the color of his skin made me do it" he is mistaken. The skinhead did not "have to" get angry at someone for having the wrong color of skin. The skin head did not "have to" act on his anger in a violent way.

Porn did not "make" somebody behave badly towards their spouse. And the spouses anger about porn does not justify wrecking a marriage.

Im sorry seeker had a hard time with his last marriage and that I doubt that porn hastened the demise of seekers' marriage, for example. The problem was lack of compatibility between spouses.

Now I can see how a violently anti-porn woman and pro-porn man would have to make choices about their compatibility and the wisdom of their choosing to be together.

I can see telling a man or woman in such a situation that they ought to be moderate and discreet in their viewing habits.

But I would also caution people that they can get along better in the world if they cultivate acceptance.

But that is a heck of a long way from seeing a need to "drive them into the sea." Pretty extreme language there.

As far as humor goes, well, nobody ever said comedy was easy.

December 22, 2005
1:26 am
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Though she may not admit it, I suspect that Seekerw may not be able to resist taking at least one more peek at our replies.

Am I right Seekerw? 🙂 Pullleeessseee at least give us one big smiley face before you go. I'll miss you.

The thing that never fails to amaze me is that despite all the academic training in the physical sciences, including subjects like the 'Philosophy of Science', when the emotions erupt, scientists and engineers alike tend to throw out all rationality with the bath water just as quickly as the 'garbo' would. Objectivity seems to seccumb to subjectivity at such moments.

In my university days, lecturers time and time again emphasized having an unbiassed approach when presenting the evidence for and against the validity of an argument. Emotional dummy spitting and bias both were discouraged by heavy marking penalties.

Yet when someone waves Bible quotes at me, I load all torpedo chambers and remove the safety device from the firing buttons ready for action. 🙂 Hmmmmm!! I hope no body noticed this. 🙂

Oh miserable me - who will save me from myself???

Mea Culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

Seekerw, I apologize for being on WD's side. The devil made me do it. 🙂 It was his rationality you see. I'll never do it again - well at least not until the devil makes me do it again. 🙂

December 22, 2005
1:39 am
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Worried_Dad

You said:

"As far as humor goes, well, nobody ever said comedy was easy."

Awwww, I dunno ... ... when shielas poke their bare bums out of car windows while passing me, I roar laughing.

It doesn't seem to take much talent to do that; just a 'few kangaroos loose in the top paddock'!

But I suppose the 'pathway to paradise' can look pretty funny when presented like that in all its glory.

At such times , oh for a shang-eye, a ging, a slingshot or whatever you Americans call them. If I'm still as good a shot as I was as a kid, I think that the 'shot' might get lost forever. 🙂

What do you think? Does your mind boggle at the fantasy image?

December 22, 2005
1:52 am
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Whoops!!

There I did it again!!!!

I said:

"Though she may not admit it, I suspect that Seekerw may not be able to resist taking at least one more peek at our replies."

I just reread Seekerw's post that she is a he, a guy, a fella, a bloke, a ...

DDDuhhhh!! I'll just pull my head out of my bum.

Now why did I just jump to that conclusion that he was a she?? There you go, I'm guilty of stereotyping according to points of view. I presumed that any one against porn would automatically be female.

Naughty, naughty ... I'm hoisted on my own petard yet again!!

Oh well ... it's back to the self-flagellation and the BDM outfit. If only I could find a good Dom who could wield a big stockwip. 🙂

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