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Fantasy vs. Fantasy
December 18, 2005
1:43 pm
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SassyAlex
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exoticflower, good points. No matter how hard people protest to justify their own selfish actions, there is no way to deny that porn is not empowering to women, that it does much damage, to men and women's minds, hearts, and souls, to relationships, and to how we view each other. To take the stand that it doesn't is ludicrous.

December 18, 2005
2:38 pm
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Worried_Dad
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I just did a google search for "blowjobs" and got almost 5 million hits.

Didnt see any photos, just links--

The first three 3 sites,106 links to blowjob photos or video. No descriptions of anything per-se offensive.

Maybe you have a naughtier search engine than mine?

December 18, 2005
2:41 pm
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"there is no way to deny that porn.... does much damage, to men and women's minds, hearts, and souls, to relationships, and to how we view each other."

That is an opinion that you have not supported with evidence.

December 18, 2005
2:54 pm
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I looked it up on aol and it directed me to a 'night time city search' engine that was a bit racier. I looked around on that for a few moments before hitting a site that i won't advertice here that gave me access to any free material I wanted by simply cutting in the word.

Google, I think, uses safe search or noderate safe search in its images to protect viewers, and tends to pick up a lot of, I have to admit, very interesting written adult material. I guess it's just a matter of where you happen to be stumbling around and what site you happen to click on? Still entirely too likely to end up with what I saw for my tastes. I like a nice traditional porn as much as the next girl, but SO MUCH of this material was stuff I found offensive and undsettling--I'm hardly a pude, either, mind you.

December 18, 2005
2:58 pm
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exoticflower
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Wow, we are collectively really obssessed with porn here! I can't believe I am participating in all of this smut talk! What is the preocupation with sexsexsex?

I need a good bible study group and a knee length skirt, Im starting to feel faint! Swooooooooon.....

December 18, 2005
3:56 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Someone was recently complaining about the variety of sex acts performed in porn films. My response was that some people are kinkier than others, that's all.

I just retrieved these online ads from women in my local area. I left out the plain old "cheating on my husband" and "wanting quick anonymous sex" ads.

Sheesh, some of these women are mondo kinky.

1. Spanking Wanted

2. Wanted: well endowed man to do me while husband watches

3. Girl needs a good, dirty fucking : I like to be told how naughty i am and what a bad girl i've been... threeways, gangbangs…treat me like a slut...tell me what to do.

4. Spank Me: Want a man who loves to take charge and punish a naughty girl.

5. looking for another local male submissive to add to our kinky little family who might enjoy being dominated by Master

6. I need a big strong daddy to help me explore anal

7. Sex Party - mm4ww, mw4mw, w4m, m4w - m4ww

8. I am a horny 32 year old girl who has always had a fetish to have sex with a guy in a wheelchair

9. lightly spank me then put me to bed

10. Interested in swinging - w4m – 34

11. looking for a fit handsome man to peg - w4m – 24

12. Mommy Fantasy

13. like to be dominated by an aggressive male who is well-endowed

14. Looking for Something New, Different W4M, W4MW, W4WW

15. personal slut: i love to be used. i love to have cum squirted on me. Fisting. Anal. multiple cocks.

16. Looking for younger man who want to get sucked, massaged, stroked, and fuck me in the ass. I am clean, discreet and very, very nasty

17. looking for a wealthy hung man….i'm turned on by money and power

18. I want three men to come to my place. One at a time, they will come into my bedroom to please me. Only one at a time. The other two will wait in my living room for their turn. I want to keep them rotating, and they must be able to keep coming back after a rest. I want to be pleased all night long

19. Fantasy unfilled: You and one or two of your buddies fuck me and then one of you licks the cum out. My mouth can be servicing those in line.

20. Gangbang or DP anyone? Saw a recent video with a women being gang banged by a group of guys holding her down and it made me so wet, I cannot get it out of my mind.

21. Double Penetration: ...This has always been a fantasy of mine. Can you help me?

22. I'm really horny tonight, all I can think about is fucking a bunch of guys

December 18, 2005
7:04 pm
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Anonymous
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Philmore,

"PORN IS A CHOICE. PORN IS NOT INHERENTLY EVIL."

From what has been said on this site, there seems to be no doubt that porn tends to take away a man's sexual attention from his partner and transfer it to another woman. Or maybe you would say that a man who chooses to use porn tends to choose to transfer his attention away from his partner. Would you agree?

A man's sexual attention belongs to his partner. She has claim on it. It is her right to have it, as the partner, especially if she's his wife. Do you agree with this?

Since porn, by its very nature, interferes with this most intimate aspect of the relationship between partners, I consider it to be inherently evil.

December 18, 2005
7:06 pm
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Anonymous
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WD,

It would be interesting to know how many of the people who wrote those ads use porn, and if it's higher than the average. Any way of finding this out?

December 18, 2005
7:09 pm
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An Interesting Experiment!!

The Hypothesis:

'Gorillas and other primates besides humans are totally disinterested in pornography.'

Experimental Procedure:

1. Get an expert photographer to take photos of female gorilla's genitalia, anal orifice, breasts and gorillas in the act of copulation.

2. Spread hundreds of copies of these photos around the great apes enclosures in one of the larger metropolitan zoos.

3. Observe, count, time and record the instances of gorillas of both sexes who gaze at, obsess over, masturbate over and generally cherish these photos.

4. Carry out, Chi Square, T, one way, two way Anova ... etc tests to ascertain the significance levels of the data collected above.

Based upon the significance levels draw a conclusion regarding the validity of the above Hypothesis.

My best guess is that the gorillas apart from mild curiosity and playfulness, would show very little or no interest in such images.

If my best guess is correct then why is it that large numbers of males from our so called civilized societies are so drawn to and fascinated by pornography?

What is it that is conditioning human males and possibly females in their childhood to have this predisposition in adulthood?

December 18, 2005
7:19 pm
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Philmore,

"Seeker - I think you are missing my point. I probably wasn't clear and let my defenses get in the way of the communication. Apologies. "

No apologies necessary, I assure you, but thanks. There has been so much posted lately to this thread that I don't know what you refer to here. Would you please clarify?

"I'm still not sure that I'm seeing Seeker's point either. I'm all wound up about choice again."

I'm not exactly sure which point you refer to, but I believe it's that fact that, despite how many men might choose to use porn, many if not most women might very well wish they didn't, or prefer that they didn't. Women do not, in my experience, tend to speak up about things as readily as men do. So their side may get missed.

That's all I was trying to say on that point.

December 18, 2005
7:24 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Seeker, you wrote:

"A man's sexual attention belongs to his partner. She has claim on it. It is her right to have it, as the partner, especially if she's his wife."

I disagree, with that idea and I think that most sex therapists would disagree with it. A person does not have the right to their spouses continuous, undivided attention.

A wife does not have the right to censor what goes on in the man's head. She does not have the right to insist that he give up masturbation after marriage. She does not have the right to control what he reads or what movies he watches.

A wife DOES have a right to is attention and care. She has a right to not be cheated on.

December 18, 2005
7:29 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Tez,

Very Funny!

Of course, gorillas and most primates have an explicit estrus cycle, whereas huimans have concealed ovulation and the opportunity for sexual intercourse 24-7, 365 days a year.

I think that is part of what accounts for human obsession with sex.

December 18, 2005
8:29 pm
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exoticflower
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WD, what I read in those ads was a lot of dare I say, insecurity. I want a lot of naughty things too, but I want them from a partner who first proves himself to me to be loveing and faithful and whatonnot.

I had a friend who would have sex with other girls with him to make him happy. I have engaged in my fair share of sexual acts to make an impression on a partner I did not feel was intruigued by me or to prove myself sexy. I don't think any woman who states what she is looking for sexually in singles ads is really looking for a partner of any sort, they are looking for validation that they are sexy in the ways porn tells us men want us to be 9not that there is anything wrong with a good spanking, but I think that it should come AFTER establishing a good relationship in priority!)

December 18, 2005
8:51 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Well, those ads were from women specifically seeking "casual encounters" and NSA sex.

I used to think I was pretty liberal, sexually, but now I am not so sure...some of those women kind of creep me out.

I struggle with the kinkiness issue some in my relationship, because my gf is a little more adventurous than me.

Ok, I like the part about experimenting with different positions and stuff--that's kind of creative.

I can handle that she sometimes wants me to be "dominating" or forceful, or do light bondage--its ok, because she is sometimes aggressive, too--I couldn't do the whole ropes and leather thing, though. It's ridiculous and too much work.

But she has also hinted that she would like me to pour candle wax on her on different sensitive areas...

I just won't go there, nope, never. It's too...violent or something...the idea just gives me the heebie jeeebies.

December 18, 2005
9:45 pm
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Anonymous
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{Seeker, you wrote:

"A man's sexual attention belongs to his partner. She has claim on it. It is her right to have it, as the partner, especially if she's his wife."

I disagree, with that idea and I think that most sex therapists would disagree with it. A person does not have the right to their spouses continuous, undivided attention.}

There may have been a misunderstanding. Here's what I meant: when a committed couple are making love, the wife has the right to expect that her partner's attention will be on her, and that he won't be fantasizing about somebody else. Now sure, he might have moments when thoughts of other women pop into his mind, but if they do, she has the right to expect that he will divert his attention back to her.

I think it is dangerous for any of us to intrude into the private sex life of a couple. I think she should be able to reserve the right to expect that he'll keep his attention sexually on her as much as he can, and grant him leeway as she chooses, not as you or I or most sex therapists might choose.

{A wife does not have the right to censor what goes on in the man's head. She does not have the right to insist that he give up masturbation after marriage. She does not have the right to control what he reads or what movies he watches.}

I meant that when they are making love, she has the right to expect that her husband will keep his attention on her and not fantasize about others. If he has to give up masturbation, not watch x-rated movies, forego porn, etc. in order to acheive this, then so be it.

She cannot force him to do these things, obviously, but she has the right to expect that he will.

Also, the wife is not physically capable of censoring or controlling her man; only he himself can do that. She's not his conscience.

{A wife DOES have a right to is attention and care. She has a right to not be cheated on.}

"Cheated on" by who's definition? YOurs and most sex therapists? Or by the wife herself? Some women feel that her husband's even fantasizing about other women is cheating on them. Who are any of us to tell them that they are wrong about this?

Now, if her husband can convince her otherwise, then she can change her mind about it, and decide she was wrong. But nobody should pressure her into changing her mind, IMHO.

December 18, 2005
9:56 pm
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Worried_Dad
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SeekerW,

I am not sure that we have the right to expect any kind of mental behavior from our spouse. Yes, it would be nice if my gf were thinking only about me while making love, but if she has to visualize King King while doing the deed, and it helps her, then why not? Of course I hope she doesnt tell me.

I think a lot of people get into trouble by telling their spouses every stupid thing that pops into our head.

Yes, people have different definitions of cheating. The most accepted definition is having sexual intercourse with someone other than your spouse.

Now if the husband and wife make wedding vows that say "I promise to never fantasize about anyone else but my spouse," then fantasizing might be considered cheating. The point is that the man and woman have to have agreements in place. It can't just be the woman who defines what is cheating.

Some people think that if a woman goes to college, or has a job, then that is cheating. Should they have their way?

How about someone who does not want their spouse to even look at a TV show because they will see a women on TV?

Really, this stuff needs to be worked out and formally agreed to before marriage. But good luck finding men who will vow that they will never admire another or fantasize about another woman.

December 18, 2005
9:58 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Yes, if a wife believes that her husband fantasizing about another woman is cheating, I believe she is trying to invade his privacy and censor his thoughts. That I believe is morally wrong.

December 18, 2005
10:02 pm
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exoticflower
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wow, candle wax? Yeah, I can see the appeal in THINKING or TALKING about it, but I wax my eyebrows, legs, bikini area, and I have to say even THAT is pretty grueling.

Also, I would be worried about the risk of some sort of infection--just doesn't sound hygenic to me!

Seeker:
"She cannot force him to do these things, obviously, but she has the right to expect that he will. "

There in lies the insecurity and difficulty, I think. Women are made to feel controling any time they feel they have the right to expect certain treatment, no matter how fair. ANd for that matter, we can't EVER know what is going on in a mans head, but with what is out there, how can we not have a pretty good assumtion? It seems like something that will NEVER be resolved....

December 18, 2005
10:09 pm
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Tez,

This is a great hypothesis, when tested, my guess is it would work out exactly as you describe.

I’d like to take a crack at your question.

“What is it that is conditioning males and possibly females to have this predisposition in adulthood?”

Perhaps the desire runs deeper than conditioning; perhaps it’s more like biological hardwiring proposed in Evolutionary Psychology. Perhaps men appreciate the still and moving female image, even in picture form, due to the properties which communicate good health and therefore great reproductive potential.

While pornography is made to accommodate all kinds of fetishes and desires and request, there seems to be a formula that keeps it successful, which is rarely deviated from. Your typical porn princess usually has the same set of physical qualities-be they natural or cosmetically enhanced. In addition to the ones you pictured when you read that sentence, she would have factors like youth, good muscle tone, clear eyes and skin, lustrous hair, animated facial gestures…

Well, perhaps the sight of this communicates mating opportunity to the males of our species much the way that certain smells and seasons communicate mating opportunity in the animal kingdom.

He sees her still or moving pornographic image. He gets the hidden message that she can bless his house with many fine offspring. This sets his ‘biological mood’ to the equivalent of music and wine grinding on the dance floor.

Who can blame this poor misunderstood beast for having an erection –a natural biological response?

Who can blame this poor misunderstood beast for solving the problem of an erection...aren't men natural problem solvers?

December 18, 2005
10:10 pm
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Isn't he then...just a slave to his biology?

December 18, 2005
10:22 pm
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and seeker,

Much as I enjoy sparring with you about issues of free speech and psychology....

I wouldn't want you to think that I don't understand the idea of intentionality and consciousness during lovemaking...Really, I hear you.

It is not so much about a spouse has "the right" to expect that their lover will never fantasize about someone else while making love. But if a person HAS to fantasize about someone else while making love, it does point out a problem.

My training is that the way to have a fulfilling lovemaking experience is to totally devote your attention to appreciation of your lover, to be totally present with them and to soak up their spiritual essence...

That is where I was coming from in another thread with Juanita.

Her husband is so distracted by his fantasy of what he doesn't have, that he cannot appreciate what he does have, namely, a devoted woman who really loves him and wants to make him happy. He would rather be miserable and sulk like a child than be an adult and enjoy an adult relationship with his wife...And that is pretty sick.

His problem is not that he looked at some porn...His problem is that he is not committed to creating and maintaining a loving relationship with his wife. And that is sad.

December 18, 2005
10:29 pm
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exoticflower
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"His problem is not that he looked at some porn...His problem is that he is not committed to creating and maintaining a loving relationship with his wife. And that is sad."

WD, that is a take that really puts things into perspective, thanks for that one. I suppose it all boils down to the quality of man, not the content of the porn or the ability of the partner, really. Thanks for that spin on things.

December 18, 2005
10:32 pm
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exoticflower
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Funny note to all by the way, I saw that post in Support threads titled "Difficult possition" and honestly thought for a second "This is going too far!"

December 18, 2005
10:34 pm
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EF,

Oh my God, you have a one track mind!

December 18, 2005
10:57 pm
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exoticflower
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I'm obsessed with pornography and sexuality clearly. I should have just stuck with the romance novels.

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