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Fantasy vs. Fantasy
December 13, 2005
1:51 pm
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addicts wife
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((((Lolol))) Philmore... you rock the aquateen themesong sooo well!!1
I have this T shirt of the characters, that also says, #1 in the hood"
I LOVe it, but have ot remind myself that Im not 19.. and wearing these lovely, awesome t shirts my whole life is probably not the best.. since im 34, and STILL get confused for being a kid... cant all be bad though.. eh???

Leela and Frye... I dont think they will ever be A couple.. to Much into their enrgy the way they are..
Okay.. gotta go t owork ,then REAd all the posts on thethread topic before I contnue ot Hijack the thread into my Cartoon Network LOVE.

(((hugs)))
AW

December 13, 2005
2:44 pm
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Philmore Bowles
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I'm 34 too, AW. 34 going on 13 . . .

December 13, 2005
7:40 pm
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addicts wife
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(((LOLOL))) Me too Philmore!!! cant seem to let fo of my T shirt collection and conversea all stars... Must be something about being a "tomboy" in the80's..errr something.

December 17, 2005
5:41 pm
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SassyAlex wrote in another thread:
“My two previous serious relationships were with men who were not into porn, I know this for a fact. And I can tell you that how they were in bed compared to this last guy was night and day….it really creeps in and affects what guys want and expect....With the porn guy, I never felt safe. I felt disrespected, and I felt that there was no way to ever get away from what he decided he "wanted" from what he viewed in porn…..This "fantasy" men have of the sex crazed woman who needs to be banged and come on while they look into the camera with that "do me" face is disgusting….Don't you guys even care that the woman is screeching for something that is certainly not giving her an orgasm? Apparently not. You want to believe there are women who get off on you just pounding …. And porn perpetuates this belief, in turn, dramatically affecting how men view how women should behave. And we're supposed to live up to that or you guys will turn to your porn.
For all the people defending porn, have you ever stopped to think about the statistics on the women who get into this industry? Many men will use the excuse of, "no one is forcing these women to be in porn", but in reality, their life circumstances basically forced them to choose that path. Most all women in the sex industry have a history of abuse, molestation, and rape. A woman who was raised in a completely healthy environment without violation rarely would turn to this industry. So by considering it OK, by deriving pleasure from an industry that is based on sickness and degradation, you are supporting the continual disrespect that these women grew up to know. “

December 17, 2005
6:04 pm
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There is so much here it is hard to know where to begin.

I am sorry that you (SassyAlex) had some bad experiences in her previous relationships. I hope that you are not saying that there is something innately wrong with anal sex, external ejaculation, or slapping with penises. Ok, the last two seem ridiculous to me, but not abusive or sick per-se. Do you think that if we didn't have porn that women would never have to deal with a man making sexual requests that they did not wish to comply with? Do you think we can eliminate the scourge of anal sex by stopping men from viewing porn? Do you think that anal sex was invented in the late 20th century?

People have different desires, that's all.

My GF, for example, does not watch porn, and does not have a history of childhood sexual abuse. She does however sometimes wear a "come do me face." She also gets impatient with me if I am always gentle with her, (which was my original training and works with most women) and insists on a good pounding from time to time--and yes she screeches and climaxes from it. She also is very insistent about her desire for anal sex and if I don't deliver she feels deprived--she says it is the main, best way for her to climax. Go figure.

Her mind has not been tainted by porn. She is just a little kinkier than me that's all. She isn't disrespectful or abusive and does not want me to be.

I am not sure where you get your statistics about the abuse history of porn actresses, and am not sure if that is realkly true. But I observe that childhood abuse is a fairly huge issue in the world, with millions of victims, and the large majority of those victims do not go on to work in porn.

And you pre-judge the women who do that work as being mentally ill or damaged goods or something.

Yes, I believe some people may go into porn as a way of making ends meet. Some people are forced to go into janitorial work, or the army, or public school teaching in order to make ends meet. Me, I prostitute myself as a lowly scientist working in academia--I should have chosen law, or business.

I remember reading an article about Annie Sprinkle, a former porn actress who gave a humerous lecture and slide show explaining why she chose to become a sex worker. Her argument was that she enjoyed being admired, she got to have lots of sex, and enjoyed making lots of money for very little work. Many other porn actresses have said the same thing.

I just havent heard of there being a huge "save me from the porn industry movement" by women. It is the women who make the big bucks in that industry and they tend to be its most vocal defenders.

I don't think that most people are for the degradation or disrespect of women. Certainly, most of the men I know seem normal in that regard. And yes, I agree that men who disrespect women and who see women as objects are likely to be drawn to the cheap and easy fantasy offered by porn. But porn didn't make them that way--their parents made them that way. They were probably jerks long before they ever saw a porn flick.

December 17, 2005
6:33 pm
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I actually enjoyed anal sex with my previous boyfriend (the one not into porn), and it was even something I had to bring up to him, he never ever did. So I'm not against these things. I'm against my boyfriend coming to me with requests just so he can act out what he saw in porn. It makes me feel gross. When my boyfriend and I had anal, I liked it, I suggested it, I wanted it, I felt safe, and it was just another way to share our love and trust. With Mr. Porn Boyfriend, I never felt safe, I felt that he wanted to try it just because he had seen it done in countless pornos...and this is not an expression of love. Sexual expression should be something special, IMO, and it's not special when it becomes a "normal, whatever" act that is expected. I worry most people have become so desensitized that there is almost no way back.

December 17, 2005
6:38 pm
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Hi WD, et.al......

Personally, I am neither for nor against pornography. I have been in relationships where is was used to enhance our sex life and I have been in some where we haven't used it at all. Unless it becomes some sort of weird obession, it doesn't bother me either way.

Having said that, I will play devil's advocate here and state some facts based on actually research (WD, you should appreciate that)

"Social psychologists report that viewing fictional scenes of a man over-powering and arousing a woman can distort one's perceptions of how women actually repsond to sexual coercion and increase men's aggression against women, at least in laboratory settings." (Myers)

"Evidence also suggests that pornography contributes to men's actual aggression toward women. Correlational studies raise that possibility. John Court (1985) noted that across the world, as pornography became more widely available during the 1960's and 1970's, the rate of reported rapes sharply increased---except in countries and areas where pornography was controlled."

"In another correlational study, Larry Baron and Murry Straus (1984) discovered that the sales of explicit magazines (Playboy and Husler) in the 50 states correlated with state rape rates, even after controlling for factors, such as the percentage of young males in each state. Alaska ranked first in sex magazine sales and first in rape. Neveda was second in both measures...In Hawaii, the number of reported rapes rose ninefold between 1960 and 1974, dropped when restraints on pornography were temporarily imposed, and rose again when the restraints were lifted."

"When interviewed, Canadian and American sexual offenders commonly acknowledge pornography use."

"An FBI study also reported considerable exposure to pornography among serial killers, as did the Los Angeles Police Dept. among most child sex abusers."

A consensus statement by 21 leading social scientists summed up the results: "Exposure to pornography increases punitive behavior toward women." (Koop, 1987)

Last but not least......

"Pornography that portrays sexual aggression as pleasurable for the vicim increases acceptance of the use of coercion in sexual relations"-----Social science consensus at Surgeon General's Workshop on Pornography and Public Health (Koop, 1987)

My point being..... although I personally have not had an issue with it....one can hardly argue that pornography is harmless.

Just something to think about.

Lolli

December 17, 2005
6:40 pm
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Hey, Lolli, you know I love a good devil's advocate.

December 17, 2005
6:49 pm
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In a 1991 study, Berl Kutchinsky of the University of Copenhagen concluded that in the United States, Denmark, Sweden and West Germany more and more porn did not equal more and more rape.

"In none of the countries did rape increase more than nonsexual violent crimes," he wrote. "This finding in itself would seem sufficient to discard the hypothesis that pornography causes rape."

a paper by Milton Diamond of the University of Hawaii's Pacific Center for Sex and Society and Ayako Uchiyama of Japan's National Institute of Police Science backed up Kutchinsky and found that more porn in Japan did not make for more sex crimes.

"In sum," they said, "the concern that countries allowing pornography would show increased sex crime rates due to modeling or that adolescents in particular would be negatively vulnerable to and receptive to such models or the society would be otherwise adversely affected has not been vindicated. It is certainly clear from our data and analysis that a massive increase in available pornography in Japan has been correlated with a dramatic decrease in sexual crimes."

Get that, in Japan, porn seems to decrease sex crimes. Go figure.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/95.....59/page/2/

If figure, if most men look at porn and if porn makes men disrespect woemn and force degrading things on women in bed, then most men ought to be disrespectful slobbering brute, no? But we aren't. Your average guy is...average in his desires, average in his respect for women, average in his fantasies.

December 17, 2005
6:54 pm
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Yes, but the fantasies porn perpetuates are not reality, they are fake. It is not men fantasizing about how women really are, it's men fantasizing how they want us to be. That is a dangerous, slippery slope.

December 17, 2005
6:55 pm
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Now Lolli,

Since most men look at porn, most sexual offenders will also look at porn. And since male sexual offenders, by definition, disrespect or objectify women, of course they will be attracted to extreme and degrading pornography.

But I personally do not recall ever seeing a film depicting " scenes of a man over-powering and arousing a woman ..." I think that kind of thing appeals to a very, very small segment of the market populated by guys who are frequently...disturbed already. Except....

But then where do we stand with regards to porn depicting bondage or S&M? I mean, there are a heck of a lot of women as well as men who are into that sort of thing as a lifestyle.

December 17, 2005
7:03 pm
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lollipop3
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WD....so much for my devil's advocate position....I agree on all counts.

The only (possible) arguement that I have concerns pornography/rape in Japan.......

Perhaps the difference is that Japan is a collectivistic culture as opposed to America and Canada which are indiviualistic. Japanese tend to care more about others, whereas we here in the West only seem to care about ourselves.

Just a thought.

December 17, 2005
7:39 pm
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Last thought here...

Long as were using correlative studies to imply causation...

Based on data from msnbc,
438,000 new pornographic web pages were added to the world wide web from 2002-2004.

During that period there was a 1.9-percent decrease in the annual rate of forcible rapes in the united states.

If there is a causal connection, here, it means we could compltetely eliminate rape in the United States if only we could somehow add and additional 230,526,32 pornographic sites to the web.

I know it's a big job, but if we want to live in a safe society, we all need to work together, make some
sacrifices.

December 17, 2005
7:45 pm
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lollipop3
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ROFL.....

That's funny.

December 17, 2005
9:29 pm
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have a question for worried dad, what do you think of a man that cant stand to touch a woman? i mean a married man that claims to be not gay. looks at pornography all the time. says if he has to think about the woman at all it ruins the whole thing for him.

December 17, 2005
9:44 pm
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Hey Worried Dad,

I posted this on the support thread about Pornography (continued). I thought you might be interested. I'm cutting out bits of it here.

I have noticed that many women on this site have expressed the exact same sentiment about porn -- they feel uncomfortable about their men using it, they feel their guys are cheating on them in some way by using it, etc. I haven't counted, but I'm sure I've read at least 10 such accounts. This site doesn't constitute a representative sample of all women, I know. However, if I remember my statistics right, the results from 30 samples selected at random from a very large population constitutes a confidence level of about 95 percent. We haven't heard from every woman on this site about this subject, but it's reasonable to believe that the average woman does NOT feel comfortable with her man using porn.

If this is true, then it is normal for women to prefer that their men abstain from porn, regardless of how many men (98% or even 100%) actually use it.

Would you agree with this?

December 17, 2005
9:50 pm
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More thoughts about whether or not the "normal" man uses pornography. The statistics WD quoted are from Denmark. They don't necessarily apply to the U.S., unless WD said something I missed.

Also, whether the use of porn varies with specific populations. I'm used to running in circles where men do not use it at all. In my experience, it is VERY normal to abstain from porn. I was being the black sheep with my former indulgence in it. One person's "normal" is not necessarily the same as another's.

December 17, 2005
10:01 pm
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I have actually only been in one relationship where porn was an "issue". It wasn't even so much an issue for me, per se, I just thought his pre-occupation with it was odd.(I honestly didn't know any better at the time)

He was also the only man I have ever been with that has cheated on me (to my knowledge at least).

I now know that he was a sex addict, added to the list of his other addictions.

That was, by far, the most destructive relationship I have ever been in. In the end, I needed to be medicated.

Thank God for therapy is all I can say about that one.

December 17, 2005
11:09 pm
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I don't know where to aim this one, so I'll err on the side of caution, I guess. I trust your judgement WD.

To be clear - I mean no offense or disrespect to anyone on this site.

To all of the ladies (one of which is my Mom) who don't approve of porn - my opinion is utterly irrelevant about your feelings - obviously.

Seeker - I think you are missing my point. I probably wasn't clear and let my defenses get in the way of the communication. Apologies.

The context of the statements made was in relation to the "victim of porn" mentality. I see that over and over again here.

Porn doesn't ruin lives, people do. There are temptations and challenges and difiiculties for a reason, apparently. God seems to think they are a necessary part of the equation. I tend to agree.

What is a man's morality worth if he doesn't have to choose it?

PORN IS A CHOICE. PORN IS NOT INHERENTLY EVIL. Just like anything else. How much evil has been done in the name of GOD? Does that make Religion evil? No. It's how we use it - whatever it might be.

For these people to go away feeling like porn is to blame, is aiming them at the wrong target - in my opinion.

Their feelings about the porn itself are really none of my business. I have no grudge against those who dislike porn - or their man using it.

I'm saying it's not the porn, it's the user. I'm really not interested in addressing who uses the porn - I'm interested in establishing the responsibility where it actually lies. With the two people in the relationship. What good does it do to attack porn with a broad stroke, when what you want to achieve is a change in your relationship? No good that I can see.

For me it's not necessarily about right and wrong. If you want to argue right and wrong, it's between you and your partner.

Going out to the internet and simply feeling like you are supported on your OPINION doesn't really do much to provide a solution. Maybe I'm mistaken?

Whatever is at issue - it's about the people, not the object.

If you think porn is "responsible" for a man's behavior, you are mistaken. His problems go much deeper than sexuality. He is __not__ a powerless victim, probably an addictive personality - and not really suitable material for a healthy relationship, with or without the porn."

Sorry, what a difference one word can make. "not a powerless victim" is what I meant to write here. I'll edit this before I post. Oops.

Just my opinion - if he's pushing it in her face all the time, he's probably an addictive personality, and not good relationship material, even aside from the porn. I don't see that as painting him (or you) with a broad brush.

If I can't control myself, I'm not healthy relationship material. That's my opinon and that's how I operate.

I'm not calling you a powerless victim seek, just the opposite. I'm saying that you chose how to handle the porn, the porn doesn't choose how to handle you.

Again, sorry about that.

{"You do believe exactly what you choose to believe."

Don't we all? (Just a statement of fact.)}

Yes we do, this includes how we each view the porn issue in our lives. If your partner is pushing you to do things that you don't want to do - the issue lies with the person, not the porn. That seems obvious to me, I am willing to discuss further, of course.

As far as I'm concerned Seek, your self control proves my theory.

Yes, my partner was OK with it and we looked at it together. I did ask and I would have rid myself of it, if it had made her uncomfortable. We covered that in the other epic thread, I guess I should have made that clear.

77 - The point is, it's up to my sister if she wants to work in porn. If she does, it's not going to effect how I feel for her. Some women are voluntary Billonaires in that industry. The "victims" need to understand that they are empowered to do everythning that the rest of us are. Otherwise, we sell them short on themselves and we all have to go save them. That sounds like Codependency to me.

I just read some of the info from Lolli. Interesting.

I will say that, in my experience, therapists have a vested interest in the victim mentality. It keeps us going back to them. I've been on the pills, too. They only confused the situation for me - like who the hell am I now? I don't want to give control to the scary doctor! 😉

Love to all and disrespect intended to none.

December 17, 2005
11:19 pm
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pb-very well put.

December 17, 2005
11:22 pm
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lollipop3
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Philmore,

Very good arguement....goes along the same lines as guns don't kill people, people kill people.

I could counter with ...access to these things makes it a whole lot easier....but.....

I'm not particularly "passionate" about this subject (like say the death penalty), and I'm very tired, it's been a long day.

So I will just leave it as....good arguement.

Have a great night.

Lolli

December 17, 2005
11:31 pm
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Philmore Bowles
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I hear you - it may be a tough subject for some people. I don't disagree with that. I wish them all the best and a wonderful porn-free life.

I'm still not sure that I'm seeing Seeker's point either. I'm all wound up about choice again.

Jeez!

I also own a gun, I'm not making the gun responsible for my actions, either. If you break into my house in the middle of the night - you will be recieving Hollowpoints. No offense, just stay out of my house. 😉

December 17, 2005
11:38 pm
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Philmore Bowles
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Whats' the word Seeker? Did I create a misunderstanding, or am I missing the point?

December 18, 2005
10:45 am
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OK, I had to do a little reasearch on my own--very much pornography out there is in fact violent, degrading to women, and focuses on women presenting themselves as young teenagers. I searched through some porn besides my own favorite sites and found "forced blowjobs" otherwise called "facial abuse"...wow. It had abuse in the title. And the teen thing was severely unsettling. Most men probably do what I did and casually puruse, and by and large the things I saw first and most prominenet where not healthy or kinky sex things, but "young teen virgins" "wife swapping" "anal sluts"...ugh. SLUTS!

I'm just saying. I pretended to be a man for a moment and saw what was available to me, and it was NOTHING that even slightly encourages, and rather DISCOURAGES viewing women in any light besides violent, degrading, shaming, hurtful etc.

It's not the same as a romance novel.

December 18, 2005
11:05 am
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Just to further explain: i used a couple of search engines to find "adult sites" using a couple of terms men might like, such as "blowjobs" and "sex" and "hot girls". That sort of thing. I am sure that any man when first sitting down to look up porn for the first time goes about it in just such a fashion.

Even the few sites I stumbled upon that where just big chested ladies with long nails and high heels where laregely sponcering other sites such as the ones I mentioned before. By and large it was about teen-oriented sexual intersts (which I think is as bad as kiddie porn--if you're only PERTENDING to do something totally sick and wrong and corrupt to somepone still physically and emotionally a child, it's ok?) and about women who where refered to as 'sluts' 'whores', etc. Most of them where geared towards oral acts, but some where geared towards other acts as well, which where described rather unpleasantly not as something they where partaking in but having done to them in a harming and physically maimaing way.

I still think that imagining prince charming before being content with your regular life is signifigantly healthier that what I already thought the porn they byh and large put out there for men to stumble on and become addicted to, and now that I see how bad it really is and what percentage of it men looking up porn are likely to find that is truly degrading sick vulger and abusive stuff, I am more so appalled that there can even be any comparison made.

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