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Esoteric Christianity--WD's opinion
December 20, 2007
11:15 pm
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Hi Ma Strong,
Ma Strong asked me what I meant when I said I was an Esoteric Christian.

It takes a whole thread to talk about that subject. Because it takes a certain amount of background and training to even be able to talk about the subject. For that reason, strictly speaking, I “ought not” to talk about the subject in public,

But I am a radical’s radical, so I say “screw tradition; I not only have the right, but also a duty to speak out about and teach what I have learned, even if I make lots and lots of mistakes.”

I cannot answer for every Esoteric Christian. I can only give you my understanding.

Before I can get into Esoteric Christianity, I need to try to describe Esotericism, and a Schism that exists in pretty much every religion. That schism is between Exotericism and Esotericism.

Exotericism places high value on obedience and observance of specific laws and subscription to specific beliefs.

Esotericism emphasizes a person's *inner life* over "empty" ritual and politics. Self-development is a priority for esoterics. Authenticity is a priority for esoterics.

Exoterics tend to believe that Human Beings are essentially flawed (original sin) and that the way to correct our flaws is by “discipline”—as in the “crime and punishment,” “spare the rod, spoil the child,” or “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” sense of the word.

Esoterics tend to believe that goodness and wisdom and appreciation of our Spiritual Nature are pretty much built into a human Being from birth, and that we then become seduced, confused and coerced away from that by our social interactions. And we tend to believe that “discipline” is the way out of that problem. In that model, “discipline” is more about “if you want to be a wise and good and loving person, it is a good idea to try to learn to refrain from punishing yourself and others. In fact you would do best to practice loving yourself and others.”

Exoteric tend to believe that people of similar faith who do not precisely toe the line with regard to specific belief and behavior are heretics who will be punished (or at least not rewarded) in the next life, and which are also worthy of some kind of socially-imposed punishment in this life.

Esotericism is largely about learning to distinguish the carrot from the stick, and is more about emphasizing carrot over stick.

December 21, 2007
9:04 am
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I thought Esoteric Christianity was some fragrant version of regular christianity, so its not then I guess.

I could go on a long debate on this WD. I dont think you are an esoteric Christian. Wanna talk about it?

December 21, 2007
9:49 am
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Ok ... you're not using the term "Esoteric Christian" as its defined by other people. On wikipedia:

“Esoteric Christianity” is a term which refers to an ensemble of spiritual currents which regard Christianity as a Mystery religion.

The phrase Mystery religion says:

Mystery cults, or simply Mysteries, were "religious cults of the Graeco-Roman world, full admission to which was restricted to those who had gone through certain secret initiation rites."

According to these definitions, you're not an Esoteric Christian, are you? You cant say Apple when you really mean Pear. You cant define your own terms, or overwrite what people have already defined pretty clearly. Maybe you want to use the word Esoteric because its more "intellectual" (what TruthB was trying to say) or confuses people more. Maybe you meant to say "Spiritual Christian" but its too simple a term for you so much so that you feel embarrased by using this label for yourself. Just guessing.

You talk in a lot of abstract "in the air" terms. Can you be specific and tell me what exactly you believe in that has has anything to Christianity? Of course that thing has to be something which is unique to Christianity and cannot be found in Islam, Bhuddism or plain common sense. If you reply with, "I'm also an Esoteric Bhuddist and a Hindu and a Cannibal", that wont fly and your whole initial statement is easily rejected because, you specifically stated you are an esoteric CHRISTIAN and so, you have to keep yourself confined to that.

December 21, 2007
9:50 am
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typo, last para: "that has has anything to DO WITH Christianity"

December 21, 2007
5:35 pm
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Sounds gnostic. (?) Which is BROAD, and open to individual and personal interpretation within the boundaries of language.

free

December 21, 2007
5:40 pm
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Hi Guest,

First, like I said, I can't speak for every esoteric Christian--and there are definitely many strains of Esoteric Christianity.

Next, like the article says--it's a "mystery religion"

It's kind of like "the Matrix."

Like Morpheus said: "Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself."

It is a bit like trying to explain certain aspects of science to non-scientists. You have a huge body of knowledge, philosophy, and technology that underlie answers to some seemingly simple questions--so there are many things that can't be expressed in a few pithy phrases.

For example, a grade school student recently asked me "what is radiation?" After a minute or two, I found out she had never heard of the word "atom," so I couldn't talk about particulate radiation like alpha, or beta rays. So I had to start with electromagnetic radiation, point to a light bulb, explain how light is a kind of radiation, and that different colors of light have different amounts of energy, etc.

You can imagine how many lessons I would have to give to the girl before I could explain how an MRI scanner works.

Deep topics require years of study--you have to do some study before you even know what you are studying, much less have any "deep understanding" of the subject.

I frequently have non-scientists say things to me (and other scientists) like: “I don’t believe you are a scientist; a real scientist would never say or do such and such, and ought to think and behave this way or the other…”

I hope that next time I undergo surgery they keep those guys out of the operating room—I would hate to have them jiggling my surgeon’s elbow while squawking: “I read a Wikipedia article about surgery that was written by an automobile mechanic, and I think if you were a ‘real surgeon’ you should cut on that little yellow squishy thing over there.”

And the next time I personally perform surgery (I have exactly sixty surgeries scheduled for 2008, starting in March) I also hope they don’t let those guys into the operating room.

Because when I am operating I won’t have time to condense 20 years of coursework in chemistry, physics, biology, anatomy, physiology and medicine into a sound bite. If I have to also simultaneously explain how to operate an anesthesia machine, and how to position an ultrasonic probe, and how navigate 30 screens of the ultrasound machine’s Graphical User Interface, that will really slow me down.

Like medicine, Esotericism and Esoteric Christianity are deep subjects requiring deep study.

And, I am trying to explain these things to non-esoteric Christians in a sort of accessible way—you start with foundational material and work your way up.

I was an essay or two away from being able to even start approaching the topic of Mystery Religions, or Mystery Schools. That topic is so large it really needs its own thread. And I was hoping to avoid that particular subject at first to get to the meat of the matter.

You see, the “mystery” parts are, technically, traditionally, and also for very many excellent reasons, SECRET. You just don’t talk about them in public. Well, except for me; I am a radical, and I believe that it is possible to do quite a bit of preparation towards initiation by pure text, so I choose to break with centuries of tradition here.

Unfortunately, Guest, you are here to jiggle my elbow, so I must prematurely detour onto the “mystery” issue. Which takes precious time and could lead to confusion. I suppose That’s what I get for breaking with established tradition.

The Wikipedia article is a fairly decent “generic” treatment. It’s a whistle wetter, it is an appetizer. But that is all it is.

Like the article says, you have to have gone through certain secret initiation rites. Is obvious to me that the editors of that article mainly have no idea what they are talking about. They have not been introduced even to the most elementary material. They have not undergone the secret initiation rites. And they certainly have not done the years of deep study required to offer even a basic discussion of the subject matter.

Unlike the editors of that article, I did undergo years of elementary training and with that qualification under my belt underwent secret initiation rites and finally have ended up with almost two decades of deep study.

Since this is an anonymous and *highly confidential* forum, I feel free to say:

Technically I am a priest, and can initiate and train students, laypeople and even ordain new clergy and train clergymen and clergywomen up to the point where they are qualified to ordain new clergy. Now that I think of it, I am also legally allowed to perform wedding ceremonies in my state.

The patience I have to summon up when addressing non-scientists who try to tell me what a scientist is and how a scientist ought to think and how one should do the job of a scientist reminds me of the patience that I am summoning up right now when I hear you try to tell me what an Esoteric Christian is.

The good news is that this particular procedure does not require general anesthesia and the worst that can happen as a result of you jiggling my elbow is that some time is wasted.

December 21, 2007
7:09 pm
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If OTHER scientists are raising eyebrows at you and saying that you're not a real scientist, then maybe they got a point.

>> underwent secret initiation rites

Tell us what they are! Come on now. Lets hear it all. If you cant tell all the stuff here, then I cant ask you more questions since I dont know anything.

>> Technically I am a priest, and can initiate and train students, laypeople and even ordain new clergy and train clergymen and clergywomen up to the point where they are qualified to ordain new clergy. Now that I think of it, I am also legally allowed to perform wedding ceremonies in my state.

Really? No kidding?

How much more can you tell about yourself? I wanna know about the rites you went through. You discounted the wikipedia articles. You know there's a Reference section at the bottom of the page where they list where they got their information from.

I'm impressed you're a surgeon, thats cool.

I still wanna know, what you believe in, which you think is exclusively related to Christianity.

Tez gives me the same run around when I ask him about what Buddhism is, etc. He used to say "You gotta be there yourself in order to know it".

You were able to give that girl a good overview of what radiation is. That was a little girl. What you told her was good and enough. She cannot understand how an MRI scanner works, but we can, to various extents depending on our educational areas. Tell you what - you can explain to any adult on the street in 6 hours how this scanner basically works. I'm not saying we need to know how to solve the integration equations that are being used when the scanner was designed, but we can all know the basic working pretty easily. (education is overrated by the way, and largely a waste of time, except for specialized study like how to do surgery, in your case).

Also we're not kids. We can understand more than a kid. The Matrix is a movie so that doesnt apply. This is real life.

Everything that is true is explainable and transferable in understanding to other person. If its not, then it doesnt exist and its imaginary. So give me a good overview of your beliefs which cause you to label yourself an 'esoteric christian'.

So lets hear it. I want to know what your basic beliefs are. Supernatural being? Higher power? Prophet? Either these people were getting messages from a higher power, or they were not. Nothing in between. You have to choose one. Holy books or scriptures? Afterlife?

December 21, 2007
7:47 pm
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Hi Guest,

No, it is Non-Scientists who accuse me of not being a real scientist. My actual job title is "Research Scientist/Engineer."

Don't worry: I only do vascular surgery on animals--they can't afford lawyers so I never get sued.

December 21, 2007
7:54 pm
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Buddhism, particularly Zen Buddhism, is a classic esoteric discipline. Most Buddhists are, by definition, esoterics.

Hinduism also has some strong esoteric threads.

Esotericism is also found in Native American religions and in some Pagan religious systems, including what is popularly known as “Wicca.”

In contrast with “esoteric,” Exoteric philosophers place more value on exact precise beliefs and exact, precise behaviors.

An esoteric tends to find more in common with esoterics of other religions than they do with “mainstream” practitioners of those religions.

For example, an exoteric Jew might take real exception to a person who travels or works during the Sabbath. An Esoteric Jew would say “the law was made for man, not vice-versa.”

An exoteric Muslim might say to a woman “You have been gang-raped, so I sentence you to six months in prison and 100 lashes.” An esoteric Muslim might say “Eve was the woman of us all, and women ought to be revered and protected—take this money and go in peace.”

An exoteric Christian might say to a lesbian: “You must not be allowed to marry your partner, because what you do is an abomination before God.”

An Esoteric Christian might say “When ever two or more of you are gathered in His name, there is Love.”

December 21, 2007
7:54 pm
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The Abrahamic religions all have Esoteric schools.

Christianity—the most famous esoteric school would be Gnostic Christianity. I am not really a Gnostic, though.
Classic Exoteric Christian Church: The Catholic Church.

Judaism—Kaballah is the most famous esoteric school in Judaism.
Classic exoteric Strain of Judaism: Orthodox.

Islam: Sufism is the most famous esoteric strain of Islam.
Classic Exoteric Islamic sects: Sunnis and Shiites.

December 21, 2007
8:13 pm
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There different strains of Esoteric Christianity but major themes include:

Human beings are Divine Spirit, and there is attention paid to developing disciplines that develop our spiritual sensitivities and also honor our physical human lives. It’s a process called “embodiment.”

Esoteric Christians believe that Jesus was an esoteric, in a similar sense that Buddha was an esoteric.

Esoteric Christians are often inclined to have great respect for the teachings of Buddha, and other esoteric masters, but they believe that Jesus was the greatest prophet—Compared to Buddha, we find the teachings of Jesus are very modern, accessible to Western ears, simple, and full of passion.

Esoteric Christians are likely to place particular value on the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. An esoteric Christian might also use the "Jefferson Bible" as their favorite bible.

An esoteric Christian will most often tell you that the most essential pieces of scripture are:

Matthew 22: "Teacher, what is the most important commandment in the Law?" Jesus answered: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. This is the first and most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like this one. And it is, "Love others as much as you love yourself."

John 15:12: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

December 21, 2007
8:52 pm
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Do esoteric Christians place high value on the Gospel of Thomas, or do they even acknowledge it as a gospel?

What about Mary's gospel?

Curious....What is the difference between esoteric Christians and gnostics.

free

December 21, 2007
9:25 pm
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Hi Free,

I'd call Gnostics the classic or most famous Esoteric Christians.

The tradition is that Esoteric Christians were, by means of persecution basically forced to "go underground" as the power of the Roman Church grew and achieved public monopoly on teaching about Jesus.

We believe that much important scripture has probably been lost, or destroyed (might be buried in the Vatican)to prevent competition with the Roman Church's version of scripture.

So esoteric Christians do tend to be very interested in non-canonical scriptures such as the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary.

And we are still pretty much an "underground" bunch--even compared to say, the Wiccans, because we frequently find ourselves at odds with mainstream "Christianity" which we believe Jesus would soundly denounce if he were around today. At the same time some of us hold beliefs that are offensive to many mainstream "Christians," so we tend not to talk much religion in public.

For example:

Esoteric Christians are likely to consider the story of Jesus' "virgin birth" to be not only poppycock, but also downright offensive, and instead believe that Joseph was Jesus' sire.

Esoteric Christians are likely to believe that Mary Magdalene was actually Jesus' favorite disciple and best student and think of her as a card-carrying Apostle. So we tend to find the Roman Church tradition of not allowing women to be priests to be offensive.

While we are on the subject of priests, Esoteric Christians are also likely to find the Roman Church tradition of forbidding priests to marry to be an abomination.

Many Esoteric Christians take seriously the hypothesis that in the years prior to the beginning of the story of the New Testament, that Jesus traveled to India, studied and practice Buddhism, became enlightened during that time, and that when he returned to his homeland, his teachings were informed by his previous study of Buddhism.

December 21, 2007
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WD,

Ok my bad, I misread, it was non-scientists who said you werent a scientist. Yea what they say doesnt have any merit in this case

Sufis believe in God. Esoteric Hindus beleive in God as well. Do you beleive in God? In a Creator? The answer has to be a Yes or a No.

An esoteric Christian must believe in God. I'll go by what Wikipedia and sources on the net, not what you define it as. Wiccans believe in different Gods, yea?

Do you believe in this? "When ever two or more of you are gathered in His name, there is Love." What is this "Him", according to you?

I only care about what you specifically believe in. I dont care much about what you're saying about other people or religions. I want to know specifically any super natural beleifs you have.

I feel that you told Friendma that you're an E.C, because that will get you points or sympathy or agreeance. Saying that one is a disbeliever is (sadly and currently) not welcomed in this part of the world.

December 21, 2007
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WD, I found this site:

http://www.northernway.org/sch.....html#Intro

Hopefully the site doesnt have anything to do with you personally, but do you agree with the information found here? They mention priests and school and training. Is this the kind of stuff you are into?

On the page of Mary the Magdalene:

And now she rules in all worlds of matter and spirit.
I believe that she continues her ministry among us.
She is our closest link to Heaven, she is our Intercessor.

.......

For Yeshua and His Bride the Magdala did come in the flesh,
were wed, and together showed us The Way to freedom from suffering,
to balance, to wholeness and union with Our Creators.

Do you believe in this kind of stuff?

Please- dont tell me what esoteric Christians or Hindus believe in. I dont care about that. Tell me what YOU personally believe in.

December 21, 2007
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Gonna repeat some stuff just in case you miss it:

1- Do you beleive in a Creator?

2- Do you believe these holy books were inspired by non-human entities?

3- Do you believe in non-human entities? You know what I'm asking here: spirits and all that stuff. Anything other than humans and animals.

That will tell me a lot.

December 21, 2007
10:53 pm
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Can't pin it down like that guest.

"Creator" isn't a single entity, a him, a her, a thing.

It's a point a reference for the sake of thought, as there actually is no beginning, no end, there just IS. "Creator" is a concept, not a thing.

As "infinity" is a concept, not a number, since one can always add one to get a larger number. One can always subtract one to get a smaller number, so negative infinity is not a place or thing either.

It's a concept, a point of reference, a place for US to begin thought and being. Our minds are finite so we need a beginning and an end. In reality, beginning and end are illusions. The beginning and the end are not relevant to our existence, as they don't even actually exist.

free

December 21, 2007
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Hi Guest,

I don’t know what to make of that website.

I am a bit uncomfortable with a website offering initiation into a mystery school. My personal esthetics say that the materials and methods ought to be taught face-to-face and that it ought to be kind of hard to get into.

As far as the specifics of my personal beliefs go...

As I explained, I don't really like speaking about them in public, but I can say just a little.

1) At this time my personal metaphysics are under revision--I might get back to you when they gel and

2) I believe that life on Earth arose through natural, scientifically explainable means.

3) I do not believe that scriptures are "inspired" by God or by spirits in the sense that most Christians, Jews, or Muslims do. Instead, spiritual discipline (or sometimes luck) can lead to a person achieving some degree of enlightenment...and then they can write a book about it.

4) I will tell you my most recently held belief about God from the times that I used to talk about God--which I don't really do much of anymore.

Mind you, I am a bit odd, even by Esoteric Christian standards.

In some ways, you could say that I am a montheist, but in a very non-dualistic way.

For example, I would say that "There is but one God, Allah." (Or whatever you want to name God)

I would take that very literally. "There is but one God."

In other words, God is all that there is, there is nothing but God, and it is impossible to point to anything that is not God, and the sum of everything is God.

Take this bottle of Aunt Jemima's reduced carbohydrate maple flavored syrup--God.

December 21, 2007
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Yea you remembered my Aunt Jemima thing huh! Mmm k.

Ok well, you're really being really vague. If everything is God then, everything that flowed through my city's sewer lines today, is that God too? Cant be, yea? That wont make sense. If you want to know the truth about anything, apply extremes to it.

I dont know why you'd not like to speak about your beliefs. Why do you want to keep them secret? Whats the issue? So what, beliefs can change. That doesnt matter you dont want to make them public.

Really, since you're not comfortable in talking about your beliefs, there's really no point of me asking them about you. You could have said that in the begining and I would'nt have bothered asking you.

You want to keep your personal beliefs secret and to yourself only - thats fine, although know that this really puts you in a bad spot. Unless you knew there's something you feel you need to hide, you wouldnt hide it.

December 21, 2007
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free, by Creator, I obviously meant the thing who created this World.

- a person believes that something (not evolution obviously, evolution is not refered to as the Creator in every day discussion obviously) created the Universe

- they DONT beleive in a Creator and believe in evolution

- they believe in both (like some christians)

- they beleive in evolution only

These are the main options. This is what I was asking WD. I wasnt asking him what a Creator is. Your example of infinity here is not applicable. Likewise I can say that Icecream is an object and therefore the Creator must be an object too. Heh, nope, sorry.

Anyway, I'm done with WD here, since he doesnt wanna tell people what he beleives in, so thats the end of the discussion.

December 21, 2007
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Ok one more Q, WD: Why do you not like talking about your beliefs in public? This is the anonymous world by the way. People could give a jack aboout what you say.

December 21, 2007
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Hi Guest,

I think I have been explaining my beliefs to you at length and in some detail...best I can, on such short notice, anyway.

Yes, the sewage flowing in the sewer lines--also God.

The current best accepted model of cosmology is that all of time and space occupied a single point about 13.7 billion years ago. At that time everything was literally connected. And since it was a point, you couldn't point to one thing and say it was different from any other thing. All was one.

I tend to believe that Unity persists today--everything is still connected--every particle, every magnetic or electric field, every bit of time, every moment from the past until now...all is one and all of it is part of the living mind of God.

I tend to believe in a version of reincarnation--but not in the sense of an individual soul inhabiting successive bodies Instead there is only one soul for all of the bodies. So when two people claim to be the reincarnation of George Washington, both of them may be correct.

I do not believe in the existence of Hell, and I do not believe that anyone is punished in the afterlife, whatever that might be.

More important to me than understanding the exact nature of God (which is probably unknowable, anyway, because that would require us to have exact knowledge of every particle in the Universe, for one thing,) is to understand the nature of Human Beings, how we are connected to each other and connected to all life.

The "afterlife" is an interesting concept, but the point of this life is THIS life!

The important thing is to develop wise ways of living, to cultivate our own goodness and joy, and to help others cultivate those things for themselves.

December 21, 2007
11:45 pm
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As far as resistance to talking religion in public--

1) Discussing things without proper context and background can lead to misunderstanding.

2) Jesus taught that it is inappropriate to make public displays of piety.

3) The exact details of metaphysical belief are varied and also not really important--I am not dogmatic, so I have no metaphysical dogma to convey.

4) It's also just a traditional part of mystery religions that you don't really talk about it in public--it's kind of like "Fight Club."

"The First Rule of Esoteric Christianity is that you do not talk about..."

5)I have painful memories of previous conversations with you on the topic of religion.

December 21, 2007
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I have painful memories as well as you would keep talking in vague non-specific terms, avoiding the subject for example. Thats why I tried to ask specific questions this time.

Umm, so you believe in God after all. I'll take your word for it.

Let me ask in another: Do you disagree with Richard Dawkins in any way? Not that I know about him a lot, but you proabbly do. That will tell me something.

So, you're definitely not an athiest hm?

December 21, 2007
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tyo: ask in another way

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