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Don't make me pull over!
February 16, 2005
9:27 am
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Cici
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someone was asking for a new thread regarding differing religious beliefs.

Although at this point in my life I couldn't give a rat's ass what other people believe in (you're entitled to your personal delusions, as am I, thankyewverymuch), and as such I don't really see the point in debating it, here is your thread.

Have at you.

February 16, 2005
11:58 am
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Cici
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Feh.

Sometimes I get frustrated with this site so I have to take a break. I can't deal with BS when I'm frikkin convulsing at random intervals.

Passive aggressiveness sucks.

February 16, 2005
2:47 pm
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eve
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hugs to you cici, this must be difficult times for you.

I think that discussing religious beliefs is something very intimate, because it goes to our core - and therefore it is a touchy subject and bound to trigger all sorts of wild responses.

February 16, 2005
4:00 pm
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Cici
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Yeah. I didn't even contribute to the conversation but I get so frustrated with people who try to impose their beliefs on others. Makes me really pissed. I keep my beliefs to myself, why can't they? I hate evangelism, as it destroyed my mother's country and people like a virus.

February 16, 2005
4:50 pm
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on my way
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Has anyone noticed that "religious" beliefs, the declarification of a belief and acceptance of God, causes more of a "nuclear" reaction than anything else on these threads?
Why is that do you think? I think more than anything else is that at the central core of every human being is a "void"...that can only be filled by God....but this is just my opinion. And since this is a Lib thread, I can express my thoughts and beliefs, as can we all. But I do find it interesting.

February 17, 2005
11:58 am
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Cici
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My Dad always said, religion is extremely personal. I think it is, too. My understanding of God is very different from other people - I think a being that is omnipotent, all seeing, and eternal, would not have the same concept of morality that we do, I think we would be like ants are to humans, to God - so I believe my salvation lies in my actions, not my belief, or giving myself over to some being.

My actions are the ground on which I stand.

But I see too many people preaching about God this and God that, when they couldn't possibly know what is in the mind of God. I think it is arrogance, and arrogance will be the downfall of all mankind.

February 17, 2005
12:49 pm
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I can't believe I'm posting on this one, but here goes.....

It depends what you mean by God, I guess. To some, it means dog spelled backwards.

One popular idea of God is that God is the creator of the Universe and the specific creator of humanity. If that's so, I figure God must be a pretty clever fellow.

And that is why I tend to think that anyone who really really claims to know God's will is mistaken. Think of it, if you wanted to leave an important, a desperately urgent message for someone would you give the message to a bunch of guys who have conflicted interest about your message, tell them to copy and recopy it thousands of times, and then ask that the message be delivered thousands of years later.

No, you would put a very explicit note on the refrigerator. If God is the creator of all of this and me, too, then I believe that there is a note on the refrigerator. And that note is what the creator has created, namely us and the rest of the universe. That is the ultimate word of God that needs to be studied.

As far as books go, I think they are mainly slandering GOd.

For example, I do not believe for a moment that God ever, ever, told anyone that homosexuals ought to be put to death by stoning. It just doesnt make sense.

February 17, 2005
12:53 pm
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Worried_Dad
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I mean, what part of "Thou shalt not kill" did the guys who wrote that part of the Bible have a hard time understanding?

February 17, 2005
1:01 pm
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Anonymous
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Spirituality is more intimate than sex, but it seems that people, myself included, have no problems discussing either...

Ren'ai

February 17, 2005
1:10 pm
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eve
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Yeh Ren'ai.

But you'd propably be offended if anybody told you that you can only have sex with a certain type of person in a certain way - or else damnation. And while most people will easily accept that I'm not into the high heeled leather boots and whip thing - others seem quite offended that I don't subscribe to their personal belief of religion. And I find their constant nagging and missionizing quite as offensive als somebody who tries to get me into s&m gear.

February 17, 2005
1:30 pm
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Cici
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word, eve.

February 18, 2005
5:58 pm
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Anonymous
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I don't know that I would necessarily be offended. I mean, it's too late for that. I've already done just about everything you can think of in the bedroom--and on the floor, and in the kitchen, and in the movies...

It is frustrating when someone tries to "convert" you, though. I hate having the Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormon missionaries come to my door and try to save my soul. Hell, if they are so worried about saving my soul, why not die for me like Jesus did? Okay, that was rude... Besides, I am not in favor of anyone dying for me. I would love to have a talk with Jesus and just let him know that I don't think it was such a good idea, the whole crucifixion thing...

Love to all,

Ren'ai

February 18, 2005
6:13 pm
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GullyFoyle
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"Hell, if they are so worried about saving my soul, why not die for me like Jesus did?"

Rude, nah, offensive to some, you betcha. Funny, very. I think I will try that next time I am accosted in the Walmart parking lot.

Gully

February 18, 2005
7:16 pm
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Cici
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Yeah well how far do you take it? I mean religiousity? There are certain Christian sects that are totally into the bible as a literal guide to life (except for the parts they don't like, like stoning your children if they sass you back or the bizarre dietary restrictions, haha).

And what really cracks me up is the protestant christians who think catholic people aren't saved. Like, er, your whole religion came from Catholicism, which came from the Eastern Orthodox church, which evolved from the groups of people who initially followed the teachings of Christ.

And like the King James version of the bible is not only one of many translations currently in use and available, it's also like the 20-something-th translation of a text written by nomadic bands of people who lived in the fertile crescent thousands of years ago.

I just dooooon't get it. I mean, faith in God, etc. is one thing - but quoting the bible to me is just, like I dunno, what IS that anyways? What is the significance of someone's idea of someone else's idea of someone else's idea of what God said through the mind and hand of yet ANOTHER other person???

/rant

😉

February 18, 2005
8:01 pm
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Cici.

On 16th Feb 2005 you said:

"I didn't even contribute to the conversation but I get so frustrated with people who try to impose their beliefs on others. Makes me really pissed."

I don't blame you one iota for feeling "pissed" off.

I was pondering why I even bother to respond to the posts that are so blatantly proselytizing their highly irrational Judeo-Christian beliefs. After all effort, time and patience is required in no small measure to respond.

In my own case, I remember the many, many hours of forced indoctrination that I underwent as a child. I was force fed by 6 foot Irish Christian Brothers with a leather strap in one hand and a book of Christian Doctrine in the other. They were dressed in black, like the evil warlocks. The preached the love of God with hatred in their eyes for protestants and anything appertaining to the pleasures of the flesh. I am convinced that they were all obsessive masturbators who took out the pain caused by their inner cognitive dissonances on the whipping boys at their disposal to do with as they pleased.

I remember once, at 8 years of age, getting a flogging for looking out the window while the Christian Brother was instructing us in what to believe. I immediately ran home crying to my father who gave me another hiding and sent me right back. I didn't do either again.

Oh yes I learnt the Christian Doctrine soooo well that the Christian Brothers nicknamed me the 'Theologian'. I still remember the gifts of the Holy Ghost that were indelibly etched upon my psyche for fear of not being able to blindly regurgitate them when demanded under the fear of 'the strap'.

The seven gifts of the Holy Ghost are: Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Knowledge, Fortitude, Piety and FEAR OF THE LORD! Oh yes, I learnt the last one 'how to fear the lord' very well until I discovered that it was all just so much crap.

Christian Doctrinal Question: What if I die in a state of mortal sin?

Answer: God will say to me: "Depart from me ye cursed into the everlasting fires of hell where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth!"

Christian Doctrinal Question: What is necessary to commit a mortal sin?

Answer: Grave matter, full knowledge and full consent.

I have since learnt that:

1. What is considered "Grave Matter" to one person is trivial to another. It is purely subjected to one's indoctrination what one considers is "Grave" and what is not.

2. Only the most adept masters have any real idea of what is going on in their unconscious. The vast majority of us are only aware of the tip of the unconscious iceberg.

3. Who in their right mind would give full consent to doing something that would lead to eternal damnation. No consideration has been given to the defense mechanism of denial that the unconscious employs to avoid the emotional pain triggered by cognitive dissonance. The knowledge of the fanatical formulators of Christian Doctrine knew zilch about the human psyche.

Now to the nitty gritty. I irrationally resent every indoctrinator, past and present, for not looking into the irrationality of what they foist on defenceless young minds.

I resent having being menatlly polluted to the extent that as a very young boy on accidentally seeing my sisters' vaginas and then involuntarily remembering the image later, I was programmed into a hell on earth until Saturday afternoon arrived and I could get relief by confessing my 'impure thought' to a sanctimonious priest who was probably getting off on it all.

If I can do anything to free anyone from the schackles of this perfidious belief system, whose high level perpetrators rely on fear based manipulation to foster their own power hungry control ends.

Bush exemplifies this category of perpetrator in his ongoing 'crusade'to save the world from all those who do not 'think and believe' like him. Without the hugh fundamentalist Christian vote he would never have gained power in the first place.

February 18, 2005
9:11 pm
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Tez,

I totally agree with what you said directly above my post here. I am sorry for your pain of religion being shoved down your throat, being beaten under the auspices for the love of God. I have had similiar experiences, abandonment, criticism, chastising in front of the entire Sunday /school class and ridiculed for my brother and I not being obedient to our parents, oh, how naughty we were made to be. Untill I ran away and they understood the abuse , in part, we children endured. They basically looked the other way. I have seen hyprocrites preach and live otherwise; do what I say, not what I do/preach. Hey, we couldn't play with the ?Catholic kids on the block, cuz they just went to confession on Saturday so they could go back sinning the rest of the week. Were we any better than they? Of course not. But those were the days and today some of that has changed. Now I galdly have friends of many faiths and well as many Jewish friends and some with undeclared faiths. But in it all, I remain to believe in a Higher Power, my God, who I look for strength, and still seek out and learn. I believe heaven and hell can be partly lived right here right now. Ialso think that God or whomever is within each of us, and we are a part of each other and all things. It may not seem clear, even to me, but I am still learning. And why not? Philosophers and those teaching doctrines all have similarities, yet vast differences. That is about all I can say about it for now!

Sew

February 19, 2005
9:26 am
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((((((((((((((((((((Tez))))))))))))))))))))

February 19, 2005
10:11 am
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((((((Tez))))))
((((((Sew))))))

Tez:
I understand more of where you are coming from with the disclosure of your background. Thanks for the insight. I would never wish that shit on anyone.

Sew:
I also want to say sorry for the crap you were taught. Glad you didn't buy into it.

I am in no way a theologian, philosophical gal, or not even the brightest candle on the cake. I am the first to admit that.

I despise and abhor what some folks, organized and non-organized, do in the name of religion. Totally irks my soul.

I was raised quite differently. I was raised in a Baptist Church just because that was closest to what my folks believe, but not specifically. When I was a kid you were in church every Sunday, but my folks did not push religion down our throats. In fact, when the pastor's wife and I butted heads and I told my dad I would never step foot in that church as long as she was there he told me take my pick of any other church there in town, there are 4, and be there on Sundays and he would support me totally. So, I went to the Nazarene Church. In fact, I was married by a Nazarene preacher in a Baptist Church when I got married the first time. See, I was raised in a hick town in midwest America and I could be the first to say "yes, I was sheltered and am naive", but that's my life. Simple.

I too have friends of all ethnic backgrounds. Jew, Catholic, Christian, Athiest. I love them all the same and have no qualms or demur toward or with any. I feel we should ALL be able to discuss religion without hatred, cutting remarks, or any such nonsense.

Guess that's why I did not see where you were coming from Tez. We were all goin along chattin and then you came in like a vulture for the kill. WHAM! Now I understand, and I am truly sorry for the pain you have been made to feel. Hell, I might feel the same had it been me.

So, that all out on the table. I'd like to see courtesy, politeness, and the such as we speak to one another; or at least when you are speaking to me because that's how I choose to speak to folks myself; outside the occasional feather ruffeled here and there. If you prefer to bait and banter, have at it, just don't include me. Not to sound arrogant, coz I'm not, but I was raised to be and act a lady and I choose to be treated as such in return. That my dad required and expected.

Have a great day ya'll.

PS. Put that here coz it's addressed here, but also feel that way on the prayer thread. Oh, and if I am wrong, I don't mind it being brought to my attention; nicely.

February 19, 2005
10:24 am
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((((((((((((((((((((Sew))))))))))))))))))))

Sorry that I forgot!*

😉

Hell! ((((((((((HUGS TO EVERYONE!))))))))))

LOL

February 19, 2005
4:40 pm
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Of course we are all going to hell for even having this conversation....

February 19, 2005
5:42 pm
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I feel overwhelmed. I have long since lost the urge to empower others with my religious beliefs. "I am that I am" to quote the higher power prophet!

If it hurts to read the words and feelings of others I say don't hurt yourself! If people drive you crazy because they do not agree leave it be, there is more peace in this.

February 19, 2005
6:06 pm
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Workinonit.

I totally agree with what you wrote immediately above.

I indulged myself once after years of reading the ... and look what happened! Blam! This Liberation Brew Page exploded into a hive of activity. In a matter of a few days it went from a couple of active threads to new active threads everywhere.

Hmmmm! On second thoughts, that could be a good thing.

February 19, 2005
9:25 pm
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workinonit
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It's all good Tez! I'm hoping people remember to take each other in the spirit of commaraderie intended on the board.

I think they are but allowing others to have opinions is part of that spirit.

We all spring from the same source and none are any better off than another. Pretty f'in simple!

February 21, 2005
5:16 pm
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I actually prefer to spend my time on these threads. There seems to be more of substance and less people looking to jump down your throat kicking and screaming all the way down!

Peace is definitely where it's at. I just can't seem to find it on a map anywhere or I'd be packing up to move...

Love to all,

Ren'ai

February 21, 2005
7:57 pm
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Hey hey Ren'ai!!!

You know, the more I work at getting the peace thing the more I realize I am the only one who can do this for me. We won't find it on a map or in a trap or find it anywhere!! ( my sad attempt at Dr Suez ) LOL

I read the lower threads more than respond there. I find it difficult to step into the fray of emotional garbage. I don't mean they are for God's sake!! I mean the emotions. I just find it too hard to stay unbiased so I try to stay out of it.

So with that in mind. are we avoiding growth experiences? You know, the whole mirror concept. If something is comfortable there really is no place to grow from but the uncomfortable experiences offer opportunity.

Any way, don't pack up and move anytime soon Ren'ai. We have lots more to go before we sleep.

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