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Do we all go to heaven?
August 25, 2003
1:40 am
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DO WE All GO TO HEAVEN

Do we all get to heaven despite ourselves?

Is Gods forgiveness so great that we cannot fail the test?

I have been giving this question a great deal of thought since reading what C. S Lewis wrote about being given a Monday car for a character/ make up.

We all have evil within us. Some people have it in greater proportions, but none of us can deny that we all have a measure of this sinful stuff .

Some people who do not worship in a formal way, consider that the people who go to church are very Holy and aloof to the rest of the community and they are excluded from this privileged club.

I have discovered that many people who do not formally worship our Father yet still lead a Christian way of life and are full of love.

My neibours had a girl who at birth was disabled and unable to speak. This baby lived until her thirteenth year, she could not walk or do anything for herself. Her mother kept her beautifully clean loved and cared for throughout her life. Nothing was too much trouble. Never once have I heard her say what a difficult time she had attending to her child. No moans or groans!

What would Jesus have to say about this women who had slaved for many years without complaint? Would she be kept from our Lord in Heaven?

Each of us knows somebody who lives a life of compassion and love yet do not come to formal worship. How will they be judged?

For those who have a low level of sin in their make up, are indeed blessed and should exercise compassion towards those who have difficulty holding down their excessive amount . As these people struggle towards a higher level of sinless life we should not condemn them. We should give thanks to God for his compassion and grace which enables us to come close to them.

What then is the way to Heaven?

To me the way to Heaven is a stony road for us all. We struggle and ask Gods forgiveness when we fall.

How then are we to be judged?

What if the Reverend knocked at the doors of the people who do not come to his church
and said " I want you to know that we all go to Heaven. Jesus died to save us all! why not come along on Sunday to his house or community centre and join us in giving thanks.

I wonder what there reactions would be?.
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August 25, 2003
7:54 pm
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Where's heaven and who and what is it that is going anywhere, anytime?

Be here, now.

August 26, 2003
1:12 pm
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I won't. I've made too many people miserable, and I've never settled my past.

August 26, 2003
8:11 pm
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I heard in a service two weeks ago that heaven is right here, right now. That heaven is truly having the inner calm and peace when the rest of the world seems in utter chaos. That is heaven.

August 26, 2003
10:51 pm
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What if I get to go to heaven and somebody is there that I don't like or am afraid of?

free

August 27, 2003
4:25 pm
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Sometimes I get the sneaking suspicion that we ask questions something deep inside us already knows the answers to...

But there is a great need also, since we are social creatures and seek communion with mankind as well, to formulate questions and then...answers in order to "feel" that earthly bonding sort of thing. That "of the flesh" experience. Someone agrees with me, affirms me, supports me, is company to me kind of thing.

All in all I think so much of it is pure babble because that which we came from - we have every ability "to know" and there is much communication going on every second between that...and us.....whether we acknowledge it or not.

As for heaven.......hm,m,m....first of all who do you think really came up with the works and rewards program....God or man? I mean if you could lay good odds on it just by looking around you, what would you say?

Maybe heaven isn't so much a reward as it is a product of something. Maybe heaven isn't so much a destination as it is a continued journey.....

August 27, 2003
4:53 pm
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The concept of heaven sounds flawed to me. Nothing can be unending paradise 24/7. If you go to heaven do you get to interact with other souls? If so, you know there will always be disagreements between two different beings. If not, being in complete isolation from other sentient beings also sucks. I should know. I've had nothing but isolation for years. It's not exactly my idea of paradise.

August 27, 2003
6:46 pm
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Silence

I guess we all have our own idea of what heaven will be like. When my first wife died I recall a very unexpected dream - you know the ones you just know is specially linked with someone.

When she was alive she was a slave to housework and cleaning - despite having maintained a fulltime job. Life was nothing other than hard work - a mantel she seemed gladly to adopt.

In this dream she came back into clear focus again she said very little just four words : "I hate my kitchen"- other things passed between us of a similar nature which are too personal for me to repeat.

I interpreted this to mean that she had found out how silly her pursuits had been on earth. She had come to relies the truth of our earth bound souls and their judgement of what is really important.-- I have now had many such dreams which leads me to think positively about heaven.

Love to you and yours.
.

August 27, 2003
7:03 pm
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I think the fact that we can each perceive heaven in a different way is quite "heavenly" in and of itself!

Some things don't need to be bound to a tired old four-sided box, with a detailed inventory of every little thing inside! That's no fun! The element of surprise is always the most fun and maybe some things you just don't get to open until it's Christmas! Maybe heaven is like a very special present and one that thinks outside the box!

August 29, 2003
2:07 am
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That's a powerful dream.

August 29, 2003
11:44 am
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Not all go to heaven only a certain few. Earth is the place where I want to be when its a paradise.

September 1, 2003
10:34 am
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Heaven is your eteranl home when you have an intimte realtionship with Jesus Christ, you get there by a relationship with him you are the only one who can define that relationship it is not a relegious thing and you do not get there just by being a good person it is studying his word and trying not neccasarily succseeding but trying to live a life for him being an examole to others following the path less traveled studying his word abiding by the rules and regulations give in his holy scripture.Jene

September 4, 2003
2:35 pm
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Jenebeee....what if you were brought up on an island in the Pacific ocean and you never had access to a bible your entire life, then what?

September 4, 2003
7:47 pm
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Ladeska.

You have posed a very interesting and commonly asked question,that is not often well answered by fundamentalist Christians who seem to believe in a conditionally loving, anthropomorphic god. 🙂

September 5, 2003
11:51 am
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Ladeska would not our mind wonder/think is this all there is?
Who designed it all?

September 6, 2003
1:23 am
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Bel... I think you have mistaken where I was coming from when I asked the question I did. I think Tez probably understands my probing and the reason for it. In answer to your question - "of course". Your question really has nothing to do with where I was coming from with my question.

September 6, 2003
11:38 am
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maybe heaven is a different thing for different people, and maybe hell is too. If you are terrified of say, spiders, in life perhaps in hell you would spend eternity with spiders of every shape and size. And heaven might be the most ideal thing you dream of in life. Like in on of the star trek movies where the enterprise crew was drawn to "the nexus".
And Ladeska, you ask a very good question.

September 6, 2003
3:13 pm
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I remember years ago, I was a college student, going to a bible college actually...and was sitting pretty much on the front row of a service, listening to a pastor of a church close by where we all attended church. I had a ministerial student on each side of me, guys training to be a pastor. The guy talking had just said something to the effect of - if we did not either give money to missionaires or become a missionary ourselves basically that - ALL these people, like in Africa are going to die and go to hell because they will not be given the word of God.

And I laughed outloud, which got several looks of disdain my way....and a couple of nudges from either side of me. At any rate, I went in and talked to that pastor later and challenged him and asked...

So..........you're telling me that if I'm too damned lazy to get up off my butt and go down to Africa where these poor people who are worse off than me (or so you say...) and go "bring God TO them" via the bible - that if I don't do this and they never hear - then they are going straight to hell? Is that what you're saying to me? He basically said - yes. I said - I see....

And if I am too stingy with my money, have a new car to buy or whatever and I don't then give money to the church for the support of missionaries that - they are doomed as well. And he basically said - yes. I said....I see.

And we won't even talk about what kind of damnation is on my head because I don't do all this, right? Well....he pretty much agreed with that one, too. But, we could work on that in time....

I just have to tell you guys...I sat back in my chair and just cracked up and looked at this man and shook my head. Sat there for some time just looking at him. I said....my, my..what a very narrow view you have of the God of this universe.

Do you really think or imagine in your wildest dreams that He has "need of you" when it comes to connecting with his creation? It might be nice if you could contribute something to that but - HE doesn't need YOU that much okay? Or me, or anyone else for that matter.

And to sit here and say, to look me straight in the eye and say to me that - a person, just like me, somewhere on this planet is going to go to hell because - someone else didn't reach them with the ten point plan of salvation......I mean, I just marvel at your arrogance for one thing. God doesn't NEED YOU. What a pious way to see yourself here. But what I do see is a political machine, a business, wherein God is used as a cloak in order that other agendas are furthered.

Do I believe in the bible? Some of it, yes. Some of it, no. Many, many stories have been stolen and repackaged but you have to know your world history to know that one.

Do I believe in Jesus Christ? Probably more than I could adequately express to you here in words. But just because someone put a book together....by man's hands, does not mean I buy it lock, stock and barrel because I don't. I know mankind a little bit better than to be so "trusting".

I know how history has been written and rewritten and downright destroyed. And I know "agendas" when I see them flying or at least know that one is afoot...

What has been done down through history in the name of the Church and the name of God, couldn't have been farther from the truth of the matter. And we, each in our own hearts, in our own private space...know full well....what I am speaking of it is THAT knowledge that will all be held accountable for.

If you look at "who Jesus was and is" - and look at his struggles here...you will see that he fought against the very thing that is walking about today, wearing his name, professing to the inth degree that - they are holy....and nothing could be further from the truth of the matter. In fact, if he were here today, he would be murdered once again by people in robes and in positions of world power.

Like I said or indicated.......if you were on a desert island, stranded and never came into contact with the rest of the world......God would not forsake you. Your creator has full access of his creation, all He needs to make contact as in "communion" is man's will in compliance.

In order to have full communion with God though....to me....means that you don't need to follow a ten point marketing plan anywhere...because the minute you do that, is when you step over in the realm of "being led" somewhere with agendas attached to it that means - you didn't get there by your own personal experience. You got there by accepting other people's ideas and thoughts and plans.

If we do not "seek" then how are we ever to "find"? If we do not "knock" how will the door ever be opened unto us?

Whatever we could conceive of in our own minds as far as heaven or mercy or love.......would be a drop in the bucket in comparison with what created all that is. The concept of earning and reward and punishment as we like to repeat it by rout, is more about man needing to have "control over man" for some very specific reasons....and very little to do with the persona of God and our relationship to him/with him.

September 7, 2003
10:25 am
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wow, ladeska,

I agree with you 100%.

Jane

p.s. does that mean i am "being led" also? lol.

September 7, 2003
2:46 pm
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Hey don't follow me, I end up in the bushes and over cliffs getting my answers!!! LOL!

September 7, 2003
9:28 pm
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Ladeska IM sorry I butted in and your right I don't understand so I should not have added my words in.

IM gone now.

September 7, 2003
11:45 pm
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I was kicked out of High school seminary, cause I asked far too many questions and never got any answers. It was easier for them to suggest that I take other courses instead as not to stir up and influence others.

I don't really understand this heaven concept. I think some moments are heavenly and others not so.

I was raised "Mormon" and I know that I didn't want to continue on that hypocritical family religion. So for me, Earth as I know it ...is Heaven and Hell...depending on the moment 🙂

I don't have to far to go with either extreme.

September 8, 2003
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OH NO, Bel!!! Didn't mean you butted in!!!! Not at all!!! We are here to learn from each other and to express ourselves. Your views and opinions and beliefs are just as important as anyone else's, so sorry if I made you feel that way....now I feel bad.

I just really like to talk straight with people, not in a debate kind of way but in a way of discussion and listening to each other, examining things.... it's all about exploring in this life, ya know? I just like to encourage people to do "more of that" than anything else. To leave the sides of the box down on the floor so that you can see endless sky...that's all.

I hear ya, MJ. Ah yes....Mr. Smith, LDS high priest...what a guy.... I am constantly amazed at what we buy "as truth". It scares me sometime to just sit here and think how easy it would be fool the masses and come out with something so idiotic that surely people would not latch onto it. But I think the scary thing is - the more idiotic, the better.

This man was a whack job from beginning to end. Taking women that were already married to be his, having young brides as young as 14 and who knows if it was younger?

What a little psychopath!! But hey...at some point he realized how many people were just itching to "follow" someone, anyone that wove a good tale and gave them something to believe in, fantasy or not.

I'm sure you've read the "Mormon Murders", huh? Interesting little book, all about murders and forgeries.

Mason stuff is all in the LDS belief system, too and if you really get into freemasonry, into the higher degrees, you find out some startling things like - Adoni (Jesus) and Lucifer were brothers and that Lucifer, the light bearer is actually - the good guy in the mason belief. However, they tell you in the book "Morals and Dogma" that - they keep this from the lower guys because they cannot understand it. This knowledge is only for the "elect few".

They take the same oaths that masons take and it's not a pretty one either....

And if you break that oath, prepare to look over your shoulder for the rest of your life. I know a couple here that are still scared out of their minds for leaving the "faith".

But behind every religious scam is alot of money to be made and power to be had. God must shake his head at us. We do just about anything we can to avoid really seeing "him" in spirit and in truth. Interesting.... Not sure "why" we do that because it's the most beautiful, deep and profoundly impacting thing you could ever do and yet...we run from it like it's a bad thing.

We'd much rather avoid the "personal intimate journey" and join up with the one that means huddling with the masses and accepting whatever is pre-packaged and delivered to our door. I think that falls under the heading of "lazy" and we're all guilty of it from time to time.

And no, no, no, MJ...bad, bad girl for asking questions. You do know that people have been executed, burned at the stake and beheaded for less, right?

If not, go rent the movie - Lady Jane. Quite an eye popper that one is. Love her. She's one of my heroines. Another one is Bandit Queen. Talk about a woman who made "paybacks are hell" really come to life!! She put a whole new light on revenge and justice, that's for sure. You can rent that at the video store as well. And then there's Francis Farmer.....talk about another little fireball that would not be quiet until her mother and the powers that be in Hollywood and the govt. made sure - she was silenced... Hard story. The movie tells part of it and is quite good but the book really tells it like it was. Alot of stuff is left out of the movie. It's just called - Francis Farmer.

September 8, 2003
4:31 pm
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I did see the movie frances farmer and how sad what they did to her.

Ladeska IM fine I just have a hard time understanding alot all at once I guess.....years of being put down are ingrained I guess.

September 8, 2003
6:50 pm
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Bel...yes, I'd know something about that subject matter. I grew up in a home where having an opinion or feelings would just about be a recipe for getting yourself killed.

It does take awhile to venture out of that. Alot like someone else said on here and I've often said - it's like coming out of a cult where you were brainwashed for years. Actually, it's the exact same thing. No difference at all.

Jim Jones did the very same thing that I see happen on a greater or lesser scale in so many families and relationships.

Yes.....Francis Farmer's story was a sad one. It is interesting to study "why" we are so threatened by people like this. But I think in her day, in that political climate...there was more afoot than meets the eye. She was threateningly close to becoming a role model for women at that time and as far as some people thought - this just couldn't happen and they wouldn't let it happen either. Her mother just happened to play a pawn in this whole thing and ended up helping them destroy her own daughter.

I found myself despising her father though, just as much as her mother. He stood by and just "watched"... Francis finally let him have it, too! So many passive aggressive people do their dirty work without drawing attention to themselves as if "inaction" is in someway - less evil. Sometimes, they are the very ones who pull the most strings.

I see that alot in a home where let's say the daughter is just ridiculed and openly abused by her mother to hell and back and yet....the father is the "good guy", always the one that stands by, wrings his hands and just remains silent....then later supposedly really loving the daughter and telling her to ignore her mother, etc., etc., that HE loves her..blah, blah, blah.

When in all reality what's Really Up is that the father was the one doing the incest, the mother knows about it, the daughter hasn't come to terms with it or has blotted it out of her memory altogether and the father sits back and basically gets something from watching the mother basically treat the daughter like "the other woman" with all the jealousy and hatred and wrath she can muster...while the father basically just smiles and nods.

Thus the child is punished for what the father does. And the mother lets loose the anger she really needs to turn on her husband (but won't) and the daughter gets it Full Bore. Usually the reason the mother won't turn on the man is because she doesn't want to "lose something"...yet, losing her daughter is an "okay" sacrifice. Cute, huh?

Now I always shift my focus away from the mother who is sooo loudly working the daughter over to focus on the father and go....well, well, well...what DO we have lurking over here in THIS easy chair??

Don't get me wrong, they are both accomplices in something like this, not that the mother isn't guilty as hell, but it's that quiet little sweet man over there in the corner that wouldn't hurt a fly and just allows all this - that escapes most people's attention...when in all reality he's most often the worst beast of them all.

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