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Do Gays go to Heaven or Hell?
April 13, 2009
1:48 pm
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tree_hugs_4life
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Well it makes a lot more sense if heaven and hell are spiritual realms, states of being, irrespective of space and time.

If they are physical places then there's gonna have to be a courthouse where people are able to get restraining orders against each other lol. Know what I mean though?

In regards to California's overturn thing, what the heck is going on? It's my understanding that what gay couples want are the same legal rights and ramifications that apply to heterosexual couples. Well Cali has registered domestic partnerships but the ramifications are not the same. How about make the ramifications exactly the same as marriage?

I wonder if this would make everybody happy. The religious sect doesn't want homosexual marriage because marriage is defined as a union between man and woman and the religious sect finds homosexuality morally wrong so the union can't be blessed or something like that. I know there's separation of Church and Sate, or supposedly so, but it's too late- marriage has been defined in religious terms and has laws applied to it.

So tell me. Do ya think registered domestic partnership with all legal ramifications and rights as "marriage" would make everybody (most people- can't please everybody ever) happy?

peace

April 13, 2009
1:55 pm
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SpecialK
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Tree_hugs, DP is not the same. To use just one example, I worked for a company whose health benefits would cover dp's, but the money would be taken out of net, not gross, ie. post-tax and not pretax.

April 13, 2009
2:21 pm
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tree_hugs_4life
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Oh I know SpecialK, I had a registered domestic partner at one point. What I'm saying is that if we made everything the same, but called marriage heterosexual, registered domestic partner homosexual (although currently heterosexual couples who don't want to get married can do a dp), would it work? Would there be a resolution?

peace

April 13, 2009
2:45 pm
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It No Longer Matters
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As a Christian... it is between them and God. i am not even sure if I will make it to heaven or hell...

Bitsy

April 13, 2009
3:43 pm
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bereft
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Tez,

Judas identified:

The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not
been born. Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?" Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you." Matthew 10:24,25

While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me--one who is eating with me." They were saddened, and one by one they said to him, "Surely not I?" "It is one of the Twelve," he replied, "one who dips bread into the bowl with me. The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." Mark 14:18-20

Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve, and he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains how he might betray Him with them, they were glad and covenanted to give him money.". Luke 22:3

But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected.. John 12:4

The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus. John 13:2

I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.' I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He. I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me. After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me. His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him. Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, "Ask him which one he means." Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, "Lord, who is it?" Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. John 13:18-26

Tez, the betrayal was not prearranged between Judas and Jesus, it was preordained by God:

Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. Psalm 41:9; Psalm 55:12-14, 20-21

May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership. Psalm 109:8

I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter. Zachariah 11:12,13

one who was determined (by God) to be the betrayer. Luke 22:21,22

no one credible believes the gospel of judas was written by judas himself and the document doesn't claim to be written by judas. it is a gnostic gospel written by gnostic followers of Jesus, probably from the second century. it was rejected soundly as a heretical forgery when it surfaced in the forth century.

there are over 25,000 ancient texts confirming the legitimate biblical accounts, yet you side with one fragmented copy found laying in an ancient trash heap in the back of a solitary cave. this process has been going on for thousands of year. satan just keeps repackaging his lies for the different generations, and foolish people will continue to be decieved.

grace and peace

April 13, 2009
3:59 pm
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bereft
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treehopper,

the words of Jesus here are literal. God knows those that are not His and He doesn't mince words. while it is true that hypocrites and betrayers of Christ are no better than devils, judas not only had a devil, he was a devil.

Jesus called Judas a “devil” (John 6:70) and the "son of perdition (hell)" John 17:12. take it as we read it: judas is a devil, a devil incarnate, a fallen apostle, as the devil a fallen angel. he is satan, an adversary, an enemy to Christ. he is Abaddon, and Apollyon, a son of perdition. he was of his father the devil, did his lusts, was in his interests (John 3:12).

it's interesting in the bible that those who were possessed by the devil are never called devils (demoniacs, but not devils); but judas is called a devil.

grace and peace

April 13, 2009
5:24 pm
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tree_hugs_4life
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berefthopper,

Judas was called a devil because he was being a liar, he was lying. a direct translation of devil during those times meant liar. Not Satan. Not evil. Judas was pretending to support Jesus and be a follower when he was actually not. It did not mean Judas was possessed nor did it mean he was evil.

When you lie you are being a devil. And everybody does, everybody has.

It doesn't make sense to say that Judas was evil or possessed. Judas did the work of God, not Satan. He was able to do the work of God because he was weak and succumbed easily to temptation and sin, specifically lying. Satan knew of Jesus plan and tried to stop it. Thomas told him not to go back to Jerusalem, Satan spoke to Jesus in the gardens and told Jesus the people are not worth his sacrifice, etc etc.

Just talk berefthopper. Quoting scripture is I dunno- lame. Anybody can read scripture at any time. It's the dialogue about what it means that matters. Not the quotes. Ya know?

peace and carrots

(I stole that from bevdee, it's even funnier than treehopper lol)

April 13, 2009
5:40 pm
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tree_hugs_4life
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"and foolish people will continue to be decieved. "

Profound statement. Read it berefthopper. Comprehend it. And apply it.

peace and carrots

April 13, 2009
6:41 pm
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bereft
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treehopper,

didn't you read the other Scriptures i provided? satan entered judas. Jesus called judas a “devil” (John 6:70) and the "son of perdition (son of hell)" John 17:12. so scripture is lame and you can say it means evil when it says "a devil" and you want me to dialogue with you? how can i dialogue about what you think it means when it means what it says? look at the context. let's talk about the ramifications of betraying Jesus if you want to dialogue. words mean something.

listen to Jesus, John 6:70,71 "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon; for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." Jesus didn't say, one of you is evil, which He could have said if that's what He meant. He said "a devil." the devil himself entered judas. the same word used of satan when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness in Matthew 4. the same word in Matthew 13:39, 25:41, Luke 4, 8:12, John 8:44. to replace "devil" with evil makes those verses nonsense. do you understand?

hell was never even made for human beings. it was made for the devil and his angels. judas went there because judas chose to betray Christ, chose to reject the truth, chose to pay a sad, sad price. and when he died, it says he went to "his own place."

grace and peace

April 13, 2009
7:24 pm
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tree_hugs_4life
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Let's try this another way.

berefthopper, I've a few questions.

1) when did Satan enter into Judas?

2) Would that make Judas evil, a devil, if he was taken by Satan?

and finally,

3) If Satan prompted Judas to betray Jesus, isn't it true that Satan played an integral part in the crucifixion of Jesus and consequently the salvation of mankind? If so, shouldn't we be praising and thanking Satan? ugh on that one lol!

peace and carrots!

April 13, 2009
9:05 pm
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SpecialK
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Well, Tree -- if it came down to their being the EXACT same rights, and heterosexual and homosexual were called the same thing, it would be better than what we have now. I would find it unfair in the same way I find "under God" unfair in the pledge. I imagine some transgendered individuals might still have a big problem with it if biologically they are still one gender yet they live as the other...but yeah, better than what we have now for sure.

April 13, 2009
9:07 pm
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*first line should be "hetero and homo were NOT called the same thing." 🙂

April 14, 2009
11:42 am
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tree_hugs_4life
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oh jimminy I didn't think about tansgendered individuals.

It just seems there has to be a solution that would be satisfactory to all.

I don't see homosexual marriage ever being accepted in the religious sect, and it seems that is what is desired.

peace

April 14, 2009
1:13 pm
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tree_hugs_4life
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berefthopper-

I must say you have truly roused my curiosity. I have been fascinated with the life of Jesus for years. Just when I think I've got it down I discover I don't lol. Because of so many eye-witness testimonials, one has to put things together like detectives do, as eye-witnesses are not reliable for completeness.

I had NOT read closely your post above. It DOES seem as though it is being said that Judas was evil, that Satan was within him, that Judas went to his own place- that being hell. Now I am filled with questions.

Was Judas always a wicked man i.e. born that way? Was he destined to betray Jesus? Satan entering into Judas' body and then Judas going to hell- seems unfair to Judas. Didn't Jesus sacrifice for Judas as well? After all, Judas was a human being of course. If Judas was wicked and Satan within him, why was he so remorseful after the crucifixion?

berefthopper, you have me reading and researching answers to these questions. It is exhilarating.

Thank you.

peace

April 14, 2009
2:29 pm
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treehopper,

you have asked some insightful questions that lead to a very surprising truth. let me deal with those and i will get back to your other post.

first of all, leading up to the cross of Jesus Christ we read Luke 22:1 “Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread called the Passover was approaching. And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him (Jesus) to death for they were afraid of the people. And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the Twelve. And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them. And they were glad and agreed to give him money. And he consented and began seeking a good opportunity to betray Him to them, apart from the multitude.”

it looks like the planners of the crucifixion were the religious leaders with judas, doesn't it? and behind it all, none other than satan.

Jesus had said in John 8 to the religious leaders, "You are of your father, the devil." the devil moved the religious leaders to do what they did and now the devil had another of his own children, judas, and he moved him to do what he did. in fact, he not only moved him, he not only made treacherous suggestions to judas (John 13:2), he moved in.

although anyone who rejects Christ becomes a victim of satan in that they unknowingly serve him (Acts 26:18), judas became a victim in the unique sense that he was indwelt by the devil himself.

judas was a betrayer, but a betrayer by his own choice. he rejected grace and the offer of salvation. he made his own choices, yet God in His sovereignty used judas's betrayal to accomplish His purposes. but that doesn't make judas a good man, does it?. judas was not a hero who should be exalted. judas did not force Jesus to the cross to fulfill prophecy. judas did not purposely plan the crucifixion of Christ so that the world could be redeemed. that's simply not what Scripture says.

the New Testament is crystal clear that everything in the life of our Lord was controlled by His Father... everything. His death was planned by God before the foundation of the world. that’s why He is in the Scripture called the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. it was a divine plan on God’s part that Jesus would die even before anything was created. not only was it determined that He would die, it was determined when He would be born, where He would live, how He would die, when He would die as to the year, as to the month, as to the week, as to the day, as to the hour.

Jesus did not die because judas planned it. He did not die because satan planned it. His death was planned by God. Jesus voluntarily yielded up His life for the divine purpose of paying the penalty for the sins of all who would ever believe in Him. did judas believe in Him? let me go to your next post.

grace and peace

April 14, 2009
5:22 pm
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tree_hugs_4life
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Okay, here's the real problem I'm having.

Didn't Jesus die for Judas too? And why was Judas o remorseful after the crucifixion?

I'm finding that Judas may not have hanged himself after all. What do you think of that?

peace

April 14, 2009
5:30 pm
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Hey, Tree.

You've been banned by the SC.

See the "Tez and guest_guest and Site Coordinator please..from omw" thread if you're not sure.

Peace.

Mary

April 14, 2009
5:42 pm
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tree_hugs_4life
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Why thank you maryp for that heads up.

peace

April 14, 2009
5:47 pm
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treehopper. love what is. perhaps it is not a bereftedhopper who has roused your curiosity. perhaps this ban is a blessing in disguise.

don't worry, you will never get it all down; there is always more to discover, always more to understand. you too are to be an eye witnesses. the bible will wonderfully make you an eye witness of everything going on that is critical to your understanding if you only will. now to your questions.

was judas always a wicked man? yes. the bible teaches that all of us are born with an inbred disposition for sin. although the acting out of the sin nature does not necessarily attain full expression in everyone's behavior like it did in judas, there is no aspect of the human personality, character, mind, emotions, or will that is free from the corruption of sin or immune to sin's enticements. in short, we are all wicked, we're just not as wicked as we could be. Romans 3:10, 12, 23 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

was judas destined to betray Jesus? i don't know if he was destined, but one thing is certain, Jesus knew judas would betray Him, and that is why He chose him. Jesus knew the plan, you see. He knew the plan for one thing because He was omniscient, He knew everything. and remember at the very beginning, John 6 verse 70, when it says, "Many went away and the twelve remained," Jesus at that early time said: "One of you is a... what?.. .devil." so, from the beginning He knew. and He knew because of what the Old Testament said. the Old Testament predicted that one of His own would betray Him.

was it unfair for judas to go to hell? no. Jesus said, “You will not come to me, that you might have life.” judas made his own choices, and they were the source of his own damnation. yet the choices fit perfectly into the sovereign plan of God.

didn't Jesus sacrifice for judas as well? yes, that is if judas believed. as i said in my last post, Jesus voluntarily died for the divine purpose of paying the penalty for the sins of all who would ever believe in Him. read again John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."e light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

why was judas so remorseful after the crucifixion? it says in Matthew 27 verse 4, that judas said: "I have sinned,for I have betrayed innocent blood." his unspiritual mind never thought of humbling himself before God and beseeching God for forgiveness; instead, as a materialist, he tried to deal with his guilt by returning the money. his unforgiven heart screamed out for vengeance on himself and so he took the vengeance on himself

well, for whatever lessons should be applied to your life, treehopper, i pray the Holy Spirit would continue to do that work. i am so pleased that you are searching the Scriptures. John 6:39 says, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me."

grace and peace, treehopper. i hope to see you again.

April 14, 2009
8:51 pm
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no, it's you berefthooper. Not a silly ban from an online discussion site. "bans" are whatever they are- social things amongst humans. Individuals make differences, not bans. Jesus made a difference, not his ban from the Hebrews. Nevertheless, all things happen for a reason I do believe. All things, no matter how large or small they may seem.

I'm troubled by this:

"his unforgiven heart screamed out for vengeance on himself and so he took the vengeance on himself"

This support pagan theory that we judge ourselves. I'm not a fan of that.

peace

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