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Do Gays go to Heaven or Hell?
April 8, 2009
4:11 am
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what great master plan?

April 8, 2009
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so they say

On the 8-Apr-09 regarding my own criteria, standards, ideal points of reference call it what you will, you asked:

"Why do they need to be otherwise uncommitted?"

One of my criteria is the simple question: "Will my behaviour lead to suffering for myself and/or others?"

If someone is in a committed relationship with another, the chances are high that suffering will result for all concerned if I get involved in a sexual relationship with that person. Therefore I will try to avoid being the cause of suffering in others if I can avoid it. Of course I rarely live up to this standard 100%.

"Do you feel adultery is wrong?"

Yes and my reason is as defined above.

"Who gave you the permission to decide your belief about adultery?"

I did. It is my right to believe what I choose to believe about anything and I claim that right unequivocally. I will fight for your right to choose freely what you believe.

"Why do they need to be consenting?"

Again I repeat my criteria regarding suffering above.

"They are both sexual beings. God made them that way. By your logic above, then it is also God's will that each being should carry out their desires."

Ahhhh ... you must not have read what I wrote in my post. I prefaced my post with:

"Assuming that the Christian God exists, that He is both omnipotent and omniscient, then everything that happens must be either caused or permitted by Him." My quote.

This is an assumption to which I do not ascribe. I am an atheist and as such to not believe in the existence of the Christian God period. However, since I am trying to understand the way Christians think and believe(see Bereft's posts above), I started with the premise that Christians hold as being absolute truth; that is, that their God exists, is omnipotent, omniscient, unconditionally loving and the creator of all things seen and unseen. That was my starting point for this discussion.

"By your logic above, then it is also God's will that each being should carry out their desires."

No this does not follow logically from "They are both sexual beings. God made them that way."

Rewording your statement so as not to lose your meaning yet to clarify its illogical nature, you could have written:

"By your logic, they are both sexual beings, God having made them that way. Therefore it is God's will that each being should carry out their desires."

This statement is a non-sequitur - the conclusion "Therefore it is God's will that each being should carry out their desires", does not follow from the initial premise "they are both sexual beings, God having made them that way".

Since the will of an all powerful, all knowing Christian God is always carried out(premise 1) and "if each being" either does or does not "carry out their desires"(premise 2)then the will of the Christian God is still carried out, either way(conclusion).

But is the will of the Christian God always carried out? That is another question.

If the Christian God exists and is both omniscient and omnipotent and He wills that some event to happen then what could possibly stop that happening? The free will of a lesser being? Is the lesser being more powerful than the Christian God? No. But I hear you say that God willed that humans have free will to chose whatever behaviour they opt for. But he wants only good behaviour freely chosen from the severe disadvantage of non-omniscience? How free is this?

So the exertion of the free will of the non-omniscient lesser being - whatever course that exertion of free will takes - must be in accordance with the will of that God. The only alternative is that God, already knowing in prior to His creating the lesser being what that lesser being will do, does not 'will' or 'want' that beings behavior to occur. This means the will of an omnipotent all knowing God is not done. Why not? Because of a higher more lofty reason in the mind of that God perhaps? Free will as mentioned above perhaps? Free will of these lesser non-omniscient beings to choose to love Him in return perhaps? If this is true then the will of this God is still done albeit because of this supposed higher or more lofty reason overriding the undesirable behaviour of the lesser being in this Christian God's eyes.

On the other hand if a Christian still claims that their God's will is not always done then I am left with this to say.

Nothing other than a more powerful second God can possibly thwart the Christian God's will. Since Christians don't believe that either Satan or any other being is more powerful than their God then how can the Christian God's will be thwarted? In fact, by logic, the very existence of Satan has to be in accordance with the will of the Christian God otherwise Satan wouldn't have been created by the Christian God in the first place. After all the Christian God did have prior knowledge of the consequences to humanity of His creating Satan.

"God did and continues to help me through this and other difficult times. I am still standing and full of love."

That is good. I'm truly sorry to hear about your sexual abuse. Further, I am sincerely very pleased that you have this faith in your belief and I hope that you get great comfort from that belief. Do not let anything that I write shake this faith. I will fight for your right to believe what you want to believe. I am not intentionally 'a crutch kicker'. All I have done is to respond to and answer your questions from my atheistic perspective as honestly as I can.

Please don't think all atheists have the same beliefs - far from it. I'm sure that if I were to explain all my beliefs to some very hard line materialistic atheists they would excommunicate me from their local chapter, if one exists. I do believe that consciousness survives the death of the body. But that does not imply that I believe in the existence of the Christian, Hindu, Islamic God or any other theistic belief about their God.

I do believe in the existence of the quantum field. I do believe in that field being the integral part of and the function of a more encompassing force that I choose to call Mind. But this Mind is not an 'external' entity that can be labeled as God. This Mind is the Essence, the Ground of All Being that underpins the quantum field, setting the patterns that unbridled energy must follow in becoming a quark, positron, electron, neutron, proton, photon, meson, etc, etc all the way up to a human mind, the ultimate creation on this earth, IMHO.

April 8, 2009
10:32 pm
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CraigCo.

Thanks for your interesting post; i.e. Steve Martin's quote.

What makes sense to me is that all effects come into existence because of causes and conditions. Apple trees, given water, nutrients and sunlight produce apples - not oranges.

However the cause, effect and conditions 'matrix' of this world is extremely complex and beyond the understanding of the extremely fettered human mind. We don't need a concept of a creator, puppet string pulling, preferentially interfering God to explain away life's joys, sorrows, pleasures and pains. That great movie analogy the Matrix is a wonderful work of creation that comes from the depths of an enlightened mind. Though Sci-Fi Hollywood fantasy, The Matrix alluded to far deeper truths. Neo was shown the 'matrix' yet still was not easily able to 'see' what 'is'. Analogously speaking we are wandering around in a deluded state of mind in this 'matrix' world not seeing the very causes, conditions and effects that emanate from our own minds and that of lesser beings than ourselves.

Along came this wonderful guy, Christ, and said wake up and look at what 'is'. Buddha did the same 500 years earlier. Mystics have done so in varying degrees ever since.

But we humans are triple PhD holders in f..king up great messages from great masters and always have been. No God is responsible for either that or the existence of the 'matrix'.

April 9, 2009
7:09 am
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Hey Tez, thanks for your time and effort you have spent to reply to my post. I believe truth is simple.

You wrote;
On 08-APR-09 quote #1 "Ahhhh ... you must not have read what I wrote in my post. I prefaced my post with:

"Assuming that the Christian God exists, that He is both omnipotent and omniscient, then everything that happens must be either caused or permitted by Him." My quote."

> followed by this quote

quote # 2 "This is an assumption to which I do not ascribe."

>That is a belie.

On 07-APR-09 you followed quote #1 (above) with this; "Thus if my assumption, above, is true then homosexuality must be happening with the approval and consent of the Christian God. If not then the genetic inheritance of homosexuals would have been different."

>You did ascribe your assumption when you stated "..if my assumption above..."

>Rewording your statement so as not to lose your meaning yet remain accurate to clarify its condescending nature, you could have written: You are stupid, I am enlightened.

It sounds like you think I oversimplify issues. I do that on purpose. It doesn't mean I am stupid. It is the fastest way I know to get to the core of the issue. Why cloud the issue while underlying beliefs go unchecked? Why spend three weeks debating if gays are born that way,that they can't help it and so God must of made them that way? If in the end there is no proof. Why spend another three weeks debating the existence of God? How can either side be right or wrong? What I was after was tolerance for opposing views. Tolerance, because I believe as you do, that a person has an unequivocal right to make their own beliefs. BUT EVERYBODY HAS THAT SAME RIGHT!

For some reason posters on this thread felt I must prove I am worthy of that right, before they will admit that I have it. Most have not acknowledged the fact that I also have a right to make my own beliefs. A few have, but only after I proved my motives. If they acknowledge that I have this same right to my beliefs, does it make them or their beliefs wrong? I was hoping through all of this debate others could see that insisting that people believe gays are born that way, is an attempt to force others to follow their ideologies. By claiming their very existence is gay is also an attempt to force their ideology. You must believe being gay is ok because otherwise you are saying that person's existence is wrong. You have to say your belief is wrong in order for me to be right.
Yep, some Religions insist on that too! You must believe the way I believe or you are going to hell!

All of these issues are worthy of logical and in depth debate, but they are not what I spoke up for. I have no desire to prove your beliefs right or wrong. I am asking that you tolerate that I have the same right to make my own beliefs whether or not you think they are wrong.

I have been choosing not to spend my energy there.

Your belief must be wrong in order to make me right. I am wrong.
Agree with me you are right. Disagree with me and you are wrong. or you are wrong to disagree with me. Go against your belief or say I am wrong. Yep, similar to many Christians and non Christias who insist you must follow their ideology.

believesay
Perhaps know you can understand you can
your setting yourself up for much pain. Because every time someone does not believe being gay is ok, then it leaves no other option except make you wrong. then could show that by insisting that others help them realize, that by insisting I must be bound by they could see

>You have made many good points, I understand logical debate is how you tick. I am not saying any of the above issue are not worthy of my time, only that at this time But I like to go right to the essence of the truth without bogging myself down in debate about issues that are based on beliefs.

I am trying to find. . and we could debate, nit pick and so on this topic for a long, long time. And in the end

Look at how I can use logic to debate your beliefs.

What I was "hearing" in your post was

at length put you in your place. argue about .... if the assumption ... above

> When you wrote; "Thus if my assumption, above, ...."
(Web. Dict.
assumption; 1, the act of assuming, 2, a supposition or hypothesis, 3, bodily acceptance into heaven, esp. of the Virgin Mary.

Assume; 1, take for granted without proof, 2, take upon oneself; undertake. 3, take the appearance of; pretend to possess. 4, take for oneself; appropriate.

Can someone please disabuse me of some flaw in my above, overly simple logic?

confirmed heterosexual atheist.
I was a 'gung ho' Christian until at the age of around 40, I took the advice of a renowned American Catholic priest and followed the Holy Spirit 'whither to where it leadest me'. It lead me right out of Christianity altogether. I ended up in an Ashram in India; therein freed from my childhood conditioning at the hands of those who would have me believe that they possessed absolute truth.

Now I am free to look at whatever belief system I choose. I am presently looking closely at Buddhism, an atheistic religion, philosophy, psychology and a science of the mind. I am highly unlikely to join any Buddhist sect but will read and practice whatever works for me in putting together my own jigsaw of life's vistas. At least I will be the genuine article, as opposed to being a clone of this or that master, founder, messiah, avatar, or whatever label is placed on what is just another human being, no matter how exalted by his/her followers.

April 9, 2009
7:19 am
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Tez, and others

my earlier post, contains parts of my rough draft. I intended to send only this. So I have resent this. Please disregard the earlier post. Thank You.

Hey Tez, thanks for your time and effort you have spent to reply to my post. I believe truth is simple.

You wrote; On 08-APR-09 quote #1 "Ahhhh ... you must not have read what I wrote in my post. I prefaced my post with:

"Assuming that the Christian God exists, that He is both omnipotent and omniscient, then everything that happens must be either caused or permitted by Him." My quote."

> followed by this quote quote # 2 "This is an assumption to which I do not ascribe."

>That is a belie.

On 07-APR-09 you followed quote #1 (above) with this; "Thus if my assumption, above, is true then homosexuality must be happening with the approval and consent of the Christian God. If not then the genetic inheritance of homosexuals would have been different."

>You did ascribe your assumption when you stated "..if my assumption above..."

>Rewording your statement so as not to lose your meaning yet remain accurate to clarify its condescending nature, you could have written: You are stupid, I am enlightened.

It sounds like you think I oversimplify issues. I do that on purpose. It doesn't mean I am stupid. It is the fastest way I know to get to the core of the issue. Why cloud the issue while underlying beliefs go unchecked? Why spend three weeks debating if gays are born that way,that they can't help it and so God must of made them that way? If in the end there is no proof. Why spend another three weeks debating the existence of God? How can either side be right or wrong? What I was after was tolerance for opposing views. Tolerance, because I believe as you do, that a person has an unequivocal right to make their own beliefs. BUT EVERYBODY HAS THAT SAME RIGHT!

For some reason posters on this thread felt I must prove I am worthy of that right, before they will admit that I have it. Most have not acknowledged the fact that I also have a right to make my own beliefs. A few have, but only after I proved my motives. If they acknowledge that I have this same right to my beliefs, does it make them or their beliefs wrong? I was hoping through all of this debate others could see that insisting that people believe gays are born that way, is an attempt to force others to follow their ideologies. By claiming their very existence is gay is also an attempt to force their ideology. You must believe being gay is ok because otherwise you are saying that person's existence is wrong. You have to say your belief is wrong in order for me to be right. Yep, some Religions insist on that too! You must believe the way I believe or you are going to hell!

All of these issues are worthy of logical and in depth debate, but they are not what I spoke up for. I have no desire to prove your beliefs right or wrong. I am asking that you tolerate that I have the same right to make my own beliefs whether or not you think they are wrong.

April 9, 2009
7:55 am
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Tez, thank you for the kind words and support you have also included in your post written to me.

The statement that you will fight for my right to believe what I want to believe, is more than I hoped for. I am so glad you were willing to write that out. It is proof that two opposing views can tolerate and perhaps support one another. This is more than tolerance. It is peace. If we can get people to do this without trying to change the other person, will we have true freedom.

Sincerely, thank you

April 9, 2009
12:17 pm
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Tez, So they say, I love this dialogue you are having. It's great to allow each other space to express themselves. I think this is what getting along and true unity really looks like! More power to you!

April 9, 2009
1:20 pm
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(((Fantas)))

April 9, 2009
2:02 pm
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Wow!

I get so excited when I see justice take place.

As so they say stated this is more then just tolerance.... this open dialogue is justice!

April 9, 2009
2:26 pm
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(((Mari)))

April 9, 2009
3:15 pm
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Hi so they say, I'll answer these questions now:

On My Way, Mari Kwante,

you guys have said you are also Christians, so from one Christian to another do you guys think you were brainwashed into believing in Christ?
A: My answer is no and yes. As a child of 11, in my church, I was told by my sunday school teacher that I might die that particular night and end up in hell, and did I want to accept Christ right then and there? FEARFULLY, I went up to the front of the church, said here I am, I accept Christ, whatever that means, I guess I won't go to hell now, and our pastor looked at me and said, "We've been waiting for you and so worried about you!".....I have also read of people having a Barbie doll set on fire in front of them to tell them that is what will happen to them!!
In this light the doctrine was sound, but totally twisted by the people who taught it. So my heart was no where near knowing and understanding what I did at the time. When I was 17 years old, I knew and understood what I was doing by asking Christ into my life, and that is when He came in. Not everyone 'feels' it, but I actually felt like a brand new person, it was a total transprformation. I developed an insatiable hunger for the Word that I had never had before and wanted to know all that I could...I pursued God, I WANTED in my heart to know Him. That has continued all of these extra 38 years.

Do you feel personally attacked when others do not believe in your God?
A: I used to feel personally attacked, and would argue on this website. Now I do not, everyone has freedom to choose what they believe. I will freely share what I have been taught and believe, but I will not argue or shove it down anyone's throat any longer.

Do you believe your faith is an addiction? Were you so desperate that this was/is your only way out? Do you have a miserable life?
A: My faith is not an addiction. It is based on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, just like a relationship I would have with someone I see daily, (only of course different because it is God.)I LOVE IT!!!!
Was I desparate....? No, I was not desparate. I felt a void in my life though, and tried to fill it with everything that didn't last. When I put God in there instead, the void left and I now feel fulfilled. It is an adventure to say the least!

Do you know of any one person, group, church, or denomination that is responsible for the actions of every Christian?
A: Some churches that I have been involved with have asked members to step down in leadership to leave if they have done something like have an affair while married. However, the church was there to help and counsel them if they chose to accept. However, they left the particular church, and left their wives. (not Catholic)But everyone is bascially responsible for themselves, not the church. The church in the Bible is not a building, it is the body of people who comprise the believers who follow Jesus Christ. It is there to encourage and teach IF the person who goes is willing to make church a part of their lives.

Do you believe it is possible to comprehend God's character or his intentions by selecting a few verses from the Bible?
A: Taking verses out of context is not always wise, and often this is the case. The whole chapter supports the few verses, and one obtains better comprehension by reading it that way. Some take a few verses and make them what they want them to be to support their theory or opinions....it better to take the whole chapter. However to answer this question from my own personal viewpoint....yes, I can take a few verses from the Bible and understand God's character and his intentions, and I get excited just thinking about how that happens!!!! He is so faithful!

If a person memorized the Bible from cover to cover, would they be able to describe God fully?

Do you feel these are opinions, beliefs or a proven truth: Because men wrote the Bible it was not inspired by God. Every man that wrote books in the Bible were power and money hungry and that makes what the Bible says untrue.

Just wanted to challenge some beliefs by questioning. Hope you don't mind.

May the love and peace of Christ be with you.

April 9, 2009
3:25 pm
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I hit the "SEND REPLY" by mistake! I'll continue to answer here:

If a person memorized the Bible from cover to cover, would they be able to describe God fully?
A: That would depend on several factors. I was never eally able to describe God fully until I accepted Him, and got to know Him better on a daily basis. I believe that it is the Holy Spirit who reveals who God is that enables me to describe God fully as you say. Many people have read the Bible cover to cover and do not know Him or describe Him as He truly is.

Do you feel these are opinions, beliefs or a proven truth: Because men wrote the Bible it was not inspired by God. Every man that wrote books in the Bible were power and money hungry and that makes what the Bible says untrue.
A: The men who worte the Bible were God-inspired. "Men" who speak words? We can forget what they say from one day to the next. But men inspired by God who wirte and speak words, these words have lasting value, the words are 'living' so to speak. That is why I can ead the Bible for 38 years and not be bored with it, God has contiually spoken to me through the Bible, His Word, and prayer. If these men did not believe as they did, why would they die for what they believed in. Paul, to me gave up the most. He was wealthy, admired, respected, powerful, and came from a well-known family in Rome. He gave up everything to stand in knee-deep sewerage in a prison toward the end of his life, not because he had lost his mind, but because he loved and knew Jesus Christ as his personal savior. I can honestly say, that I will do the same if I am ever given the choice. I will allow my head to be cut off, or starve before I will ever renounce God.

Just wanted to challenge some beliefs by questioning. Hope you don't mind.

May the love and peace of Christ be with you.
A: You too!!!

April 9, 2009
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so they say

On the 9-Apr-09 you wrote:

"Sincerely, thank you..."

Thanks for your thanks.

April 9, 2009
9:58 pm
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bereft

On the 2-Apr-09 you wrote:

"... only one apostle went to hell."

How can you be so sure of that. It seems that the finding of a genuine copy of the Gospel of Judas tells a whole different store. It seems that the victors in the early Christian wars for Christian Sect supremacy did rewrite the 'inspired' bible's history.

See this web page called 'Gospel of Judas' Tells His Side.

April 10, 2009
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as a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. so Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

John 6:66-71

April 10, 2009
6:04 pm
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Hi all!!!

From what I have studied myself it seems that Judas is attacked a lot. To me, it seems that people like to blame others.

Jesus did what he came to do. He fulfilled all prophesies about his coming and delivering us. Whether we like it or not Judas had to do what he did so that we could be free...

As far as Judas going to hell... I think he had a difficult job to do and that God knew this. We don’t know what type of relationship he had with God and therefore none of us is in any position to say where he did or did not go.

April 10, 2009
6:37 pm
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"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. John 17:12

April 10, 2009
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bereft

Why would these scribes writing down what was reportedly the words of Christ repeated many times and filtered through lesser intellects over many decades, use vague metaphors like "the son of perdition" and "one of you is a devil". Why would the scribes not use his name, Judas, instead of using metaphors? Christ obviously wanted Judas to betray him otherwise he would have disclosed who the "devil" was at the last supper. He would not have waited for the Temple guards to arrest him, etc.

The question is not whether Jesus wanted Judas to betray him or not. That he did is self evident. The question is: "Was the betrayal prearranged between Judas and Jesus?"

In the Gospel according to Judas, it is written:Judas said, “Master, could it be that my seed is under the control of the rulers?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Come, that I [—two lines missing—], but that you
will grieve much when you see the kingdom and all its generation.”
When he heard this, Judas said to him, “What good is it that I have received it? For
you have set me apart for that generation.”

Jesus answered and said, “You will become the thirteenth, and you will be cursed by the other generations—and you will come to rule over them. In the last days they will curse your ascent [47] to the holy [generation].”

... ... ... ... ...

...

... JESUS SPEAKS OF THOSE WHO ARE BAPTIZED, AND JUDAS’S BETRAYAL

Judas said to Jesus, “Look, what will those who have been baptized in your name do?”

Jesus said, “Truly I say [to you], this baptism [56] […] my name [—about nine lines missing—] to me. Truly [I] say to you, Judas, [those who] offer sacrifices to Saklas […]
God [—three lines missing—] everything that is evil.

“But you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me.

Already your horn has been raised,
your wrath has been kindled,
your star has shown brightly,

and your heart has […]. [57]
“Truly […] your last […] become [—about two and a half lines missing—], grieve [—about two lines missing—] the ruler, since he will be destroyed. And then the image
of the great generation of Adam will be exalted, for prior to heaven, earth, and the angels, that generation, which is from the eternal realms, exists. Look, you have been told everything. Lift up your eyes and look at the cloud and the light within it and the stars
surrounding it. The star that leads the way is your star.”
Judas lifted up his eyes and saw the luminous cloud, and he entered it. Those standing on the ground heard a voice coming from the cloud, saying, [58] […] great generation
[…] … image […] [—about five lines missing—].

CONCLUSION: JUDAS BETRAYS JESUS

[…] Their high priests murmured because [he] had gone into the guest room for his prayer. But some scribes were there watching carefully in order to arrest him during the prayer, for they were afraid of the people, since he was regarded by all as a prophet.
They approached Judas and said to him, “What are you doing here? You are Jesus’ disciple.”

Judas answered them as they wished. And he received some money and handed him over to them.

THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS"

It is self-evident that since the Gospel according to Judas exists, Judas did not in fact commit suicied in Potter's Field immediately after the betrayal as the bible would have us believe. In fact Judas must have had a following for his Gospel to have been accepted by early Christians and for it to have survived. It sounds like Judas and Thomas were more enlightened than the rest but were excluded by the majority who did not understand Christ's mystical message at all.

Regarding the 4 gospels in the Bible, there is something fishy in Denmark!

April 10, 2009
8:29 pm
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Stating that somebody was a devil during these times did not mean that person was evil. It meant the person is on the outside, a rebel, deviating from the flock. "devil" is synonymous with evil in OUR language. Not the language of that time.

peace

April 10, 2009
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Tree_hugs_4life.

Thanks for clarifying what being called a "devil" meant in those times. I wasn't aware of that.

April 11, 2009
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Hey folks this Bible Gateway site sure is handy. It has so many different versions of the bible to compare. Then if you are not satisfied and you doubt the veracity of the translation, you can get Young's literal translation as well.

April 12, 2009
12:14 pm
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on my way
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Actually it talks about possession of demons, so although the person was not technically a devil, the person was possessed by one or even several....not unheard of today either.

April 12, 2009
12:22 pm
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marypoppins
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"Do Gays go to Heaven or Hell?"

NO ONE knows for sure if Heaven or Hell even exist.

Fortunately, our government is not a theocracy.

Iowa and another state, can't remember, recently legalized same sex marriage. Cool!

Equal rights for all!! Continued separation of "church" and "state".

Sincerely,

Mary

April 12, 2009
1:18 pm
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tree_hugs_4life
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I wish I could understand what makes people think heaven and hell are physical places, like physical places we chart on maps.

peace

April 13, 2009
11:36 am
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Mari Kwante
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(((Mary)))

Vermont legalized same sex marriage through the legislature!!!

I too am a supporter of the seperation of church and state and equal rights for all... Now if we can just get Cali back 🙂

Tree... you are so right. I tend to see them as actual places until I really think about it. Do you think they could be spiritual places?

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