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Do Gays go to Heaven or Hell?
April 5, 2009
10:13 pm
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so they say
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Fantas, that was my point about the tax collector. Jesus could treat them just like anyone else. Do you think they had different beliefs about collecting taxes? Do you think Jesus had to change his belief about the way tax collectors were collecting the money in order for him to show true love and compassion to the tax collectors?

April 5, 2009
11:35 pm
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fantas
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I can't say that I know what Jesus was thinking about tax collectors, but given how he treated other so called sinners, because He never articulated this to them, however, I do not think he gave much thought to what they did. He never once brought it up to the tax collectors, prostitutes, etc. until others, namely teachers of the law, made issue of it or until they themselves asked for His forgives either by their actions, like the woman with the Alabaster flask or Zaccheaus etc.

So I do not believe He sat with them thinking, these are some sinners here that I will go eat with which would have been really patronizing, instead, I think He just went because they were kind enough to invite him and show Him kindness, just like He went to visit Simon the Pharisee and other distinguished people.

Only with a few people did He publicly out them, like the woman with the issue of blood , because this was the only way for her to gain medical validity and social re-acceptance. He did it for her. I'm sure there were many people who touched His clothes and were healed but He never said a word.

Also with the Phoenician woman He made her acknowledge that she understood who He was and what she, a gentile, was asking of Him. Otherwise, as a gentile, she couldn't have been able to tell of her encounter and conversion into this new movement, which was just for the Jews, even if they mocked and insulted Him for it. He needed to make sure that the teachers of the law watching Him, knew He understood the law, but would bend it to save a willing human being, and for this, He got crucified.

I think that had the teachers of the law never made issue with the people Jesus ate, visited, and spent time with, He never, ever, would have. I believe this because his disciples were hardly learned and acknowledged law followers and upholders, and I'm sure some had histories to them that would have raised brows and disqualified them from serving with the prophet, according to the law, but to this day, we know little of what their lives prior to Jesus were like. He wouldn't even out Judas, when He knew full well what he would, in the end do. He let His own traitor serve and teach the gospel with Him and none of the others weren't any wiser.

Again, in my opinion, I feel that it's easier for me to not have a sin seeing eye and a forgiving spirit when I fail to do that. I feel this is how Jesus was and would have wanted me to be.

April 6, 2009
12:22 am
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Fantas,

Is it your opinion, that saying something like; I think adultery is morally wrong. You would be hurting someone so you should keep it to yourself?

April 6, 2009
12:56 am
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Let's say there is a divine creator of the universe and of us all.

First of all, seems to me he/she has a LOT bigger things to be concerned with than the sex lives of human beings. You know, holding the galaxies together and stuff.

Next, people don't choose to be gay. Why would anyone choose to be a persecuted minority with at most 1/10th the number of possible available mates as a heterosexual person?

So, if God made us all, then he also made gay people the way they are. So why would he hod that against them?

I like scenario # 1 better--God just does not give a hoot.

April 6, 2009
1:17 am
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Hi Worried Dad,

You and I have differing views on choosing sexual orientation. Great, no problem. I don't know if you have been following this thread, this issue has really been debated in earlier posts. I am asking for tolerance that I have a different belief than perhaps you. I think God does care. Just like he cares about adultery and other things.

The problem I have experienced with the God has made gay people that way logic is that I don't believe that. Because there is no proof, I get to decide for myself if I believe it or not, as does anybody else.

April 6, 2009
2:45 am
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fantas
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So they Say,

I think where I am now, I know what that means for me. Because I do not have the capacity to know the hidden circumstances of others, I would rather have someone go read the Holy Writings for themselves. Unless they are completely illiterate, I shouldn't have to tell them this. They can read for themselves and make of it what they choose. I can share with them my understanding of what the Scriptures say, but I would make sure they know that this is my interpretation. They can study, pray, and do as they are led. Hopefully, if they are in my life for an extended period of time, I may, God permitting, be able to speak to them through my action towards them. Like St. Francis of Assisi said "Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words." 1600AD he wrote this.

Now if I had children, I would attempt to read and discuss with them some of these things until they are of an age where they can begin to decide, and then, I would begin to let them experience the consequences of their choices and test them against the Spiritual values we learn and practice. I wouldn't tell them that this is how things are after they reach their age of accountability, but I would make sure they know how to discern using facts and Scripture and they know to stand their ground or suffer the consequences of their choice humbly and reflectively.

April 6, 2009
11:31 am
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Fantas,

I think you reply to my question was yes with exception of your children? If so, sincerely, I wish you peace on your journey.

April 6, 2009
12:44 pm
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fantas
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So they Say,

My answer is not a yes or a no. I would say neither, but direct the person, assuming they had asked me for my help, to the Holy Scriptures where they can figure it out for themselves. I think it's irresponsible for a grownup, to make me responsible for their moral/immoral choices. Should they insist that I explain MY UNDERSTANDING to them, then I would with a definite disclaimer with it. I'm not God, I'm not the interpreter of his Writings, but a student of Them and what I humbly offer is my interpretation of it. I would still encourage them to study the entire Book, not excerpts, and draw conclusions based on their understanding. The rest is up to God and the Holy Spirit.

Which is where my children come in. I'm responsible to guide and direct their spiritual growth until such a point, when they too can decide for themselves, and then they are on their own. Their spiritual journey belongs to them.

Thank you for your well wishes. I wish you the same.

April 6, 2009
1:47 pm
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Worried Dad,

Thank you for speaking up on this!

Cary

April 6, 2009
3:59 pm
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No proof of a natural aspect to homosexuality? Not yet, but there is a lot of eveidence that suggests that that it's not a "choice".

http://www.unl.edu/rhames/cour.....inger.html

"Our results suggest that events before birth (or even before conception in the case of older brothers) influence human sexual orientation. The masculinized right-hand 2D:4D ratio in homosexual women may reflect fetal androgen levels that are slightly higher than in heterosexual women. Homosexual men without older brothers have 2D:4D ratios indistinguishable from heterosexual eldest sons, indicating that factors other than fetal androgen (such as genetic influences8, 9) also contribute to sexual orientation. Finger measures indicate that men with more elder brothers, including those men who develop a homosexual orientation, might be exposed to greater than normal levels of prenatal androgen. "

for one.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.or.....t/153/1/27

for another.
"CONCLUSIONS: These results restrict the range of possible theories of the birth order phenomenon to those that can explain not only why older brothers increase the probability of homosexuality in later-born males but also why older sisters neither enhance this effect nor counteract it."

April 6, 2009
4:33 pm
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Hi All!
I answered the many questions. This is what I believe and what is factual to me.

So they say,

#1
You guys have said you are also Christians, so from one Christian to another do you guys think you were brainwashed into believing in Christ?
* No I was never “brainwashed”. I grew up in church and never believed. I thought it was all phony… until I developed my own relationship with God after I left for college.

Do you feel personally attacked when others do not believe in your God?
* No I never feel attacked. To each his own. I share my beliefs not to “change” others but to spread the love of Christ to those I come in contact with. I make no effort to “make” others believe what I do.

Do you believe your faith is an addiction? Were you so desperate that this was/is your only way out? Do you have a miserable life?
* An addiction no. I have grown to understand that I am a spiritual person not “religious”. I have had a rough life and I did kind of hit rock bottom before I truly believed. I didn’t see God as my only way out. He was there for me and there was no church and Christians to bail me out. It was a God and me thing no one else was involved. I do not have a miserable life I think we all go through things…

Do you know of any one person, group, church, or denomination that is responsible for the actions of every Christian?
* Absolutely not. We are all individuals.

Do you believe it is possible to comprehend God's character or his intentions by selecting a few verses from the Bible?
* I believe that we can see certain characteristics of God through what he did in the past and what he does now. You have to take the Word in context. Reading a few doesn’t work for me, I can’t speak for others.

If a person memorized the Bible from cover to cover, would they be able to describe God fully?
* Again, absolutely not. The table can not define the carpenter. We were created and as the created we can not define God. The only person who can “describe God fully” is God himself.

Mary,
Do I have to be wrong for you to be right?
* No, everyone has their own beliefs. Even in certain “denominations” and organized beliefs systems things will differ for each individual.

If I don't believe that your path is the ONLY path to Heaven, am I in for an eternity of pain, or whatever Bereft's "lovely" words were to me.
* God tells us in the Word where we will go if we do not obey. I believe that I being Mari can not and will not tell someone what they will receive as judgment for sin. It is a sin to judge and judging doesn’t make sense to me anyway.

IF I believe that God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, reincarnation, Heaven, Hell, along with other mysteries we cannot PROVE may be possible, can I still get to Heaven, if there is one?
* I have no problem admitting that I don’t know where you will go. The only person who knows is God.

OR IS IT REALLY A GAME SHOW???
IS IT REALLY "LET'S MAKE A DEAL"?
if I don't choose door #1, but waver forever between all the doors, will God, if there is one, still let me into Heaven, if there is one???
* I don’t believe it is a game. The answer to your last question is an answer you have to search for. I believe that God knows you because he made you; and only he can answer that for you. All I can say is search for the Lord yourself; whatever he tells you to do, wherever he tells you to go, you do that. What God has for me is for me and what he has for you is for you.

H& P
Yes I admit I am young physically, but I believe that my experiences have aged me mentally and spiritually quite a bit...

April 6, 2009
5:06 pm
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(((Mari)))

Your truly mentally and spiritually mature! And your correct adverisity can lead into growing, both emotionally and spiritually.

Healing and Peace

April 6, 2009
5:22 pm
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Mari,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Mary

April 6, 2009
6:11 pm
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fantas
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So They Say,

Here are question for you:

1) Would you as a Christian be able to truthfully comfort the many mothers whose gay sons were murdered last week by religious fanatics?

2) Do you think they would trust you with their wounded and grieving hearts if they were to ask you if your Faith accepted their sons as they were, and you said no? What would you tell them if you were in their presence right now?

3) Would you feel justified if after hearing your answer they shut you out or decided to give you a taste of what their children experienced? Would you consider yourself persecuted?

4) How would you suggest a Christian who feels as you do comfort these mothers or Matthew Sheppard's mother or the mothers of the many gay Americans who have been murdered or committed suicide?

5) What does the Holy Bible say about comforting those we call immoral? Please share these verses?

6) If you had the power to, would you encourage/discourage preachers to continue preaching about the evil's of homosexuality if a few of their congregation members took it upon themselves to openly condemn the gay people in their families, schools, etc. to a point of harassment? Are there Scriptural Verses about this? Please share.

7) Where does one draw the line between telling the truth in love and injuring people emotionally, mentally, and psychologically? Are there verses about this in the Scriptures? Please share.

8) What would you do, if one of your children was gay?

April 6, 2009
6:23 pm
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What makes y'all think heaven is a place?

peace

April 7, 2009
12:16 am
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((((H&P))))

Thank you! I know I have a king way to go, but I'm striving to be the best Me!

(((Mary)))

I hope you understand my views. I am not pushy... I would like to know your answers to your questions you asked. If you dont mind.

I love conversing about different cultures and beliefs.
___________________________

Because every where I have ever been in my life has been a "place" I think I tend to see heaven in that sense as well...

April 7, 2009
4:15 am
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Fantas, I have answered Mary's questions, so I will be glad to answer yours also.

1. As a Christian, as a human being, I would do my best to comfort these grieving mothers. I hold no ill will towards people because they are gay. My heart goes out to anybody who has suffered loss. I can't stand to see suffering. Been there too much myself. Remember, I spoke up my belief because Tb was using scripture to guilt Carey about being gay. Others were condemning Tb for her beliefs. And then they told me I can't believe what I believe. I wanted to prove to you guys it is possible to believe as I do without condemning or attacking. Never trying to control someone else's beliefs. If the people on this thread want tolerance, maybe they should try practicing it. I am not guilty of the accusations on this thread. I have met many, many double standards here.
I am strong in my beliefs, I have a loving heart full of compassion, but you won't hear it because I do not believe as you do. (question #2) Let the proof speak for itself. Reread the posts.

2) Do you think they would trust you with their wounded and grieving hearts if they were to ask you if your Faith accepted their sons as they were, and you said no? What would you tell them if you were in their presence right now?

THIS is were you just don't get the picture! I would not answer no to that question. With my full heart I believe my faith does accept each person as they are. Right where they are. I also believe the Bibles says not to have same sex relations and I believe God does not intend for me to be that way. The Bible says not to steal. I believe it is morally wrong to steal. Surely you have stole something, or know someone who stole something in your lifetime. Are you a thief or is that something you did? Are you mad at me for that belief too?

If I were in their presence right now, I would tell them how sorry I am for their loss. That nobody had the right to take away their children. It was Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! and then I would sit quietly and cry with them.

This is why I speak up. For tolerance! But the hate is coming from this thread also. It is not just out there. It is right here in this thread. I have experienced it first hand and mostly by the people who accuse me of it. Apparently, it is only wrong if I were to do it, not them.

3) Would you feel justified if after hearing your answer they shut you out or decided to give you a taste of what their children experienced? Would you consider yourself persecuted?

Do I feel it is right to punish me for another's actions? No. I don't believe in passing on hate. If you experience hate and you know it is wrong, why would you pass that on. Because it was done to you? I speak up when I see that occur. No matter who I see doing it.

If they decided they would not want me there, I would respect their decision and quietly leave. If they gave me a taste of what their children experienced, I would take into consideration all they are going through and I would feel wronged. Not persecuted. I would pray, asking God to help me forgive them for hurting me when I did not deserve it.

4) How would you suggest a Christian who feels as you do comfort these mothers or Matthew Sheppard's mother or the mothers of the many gay Americans who have been murdered or committed suicide?

The same way they would for anybody else. These tragedies go across the board. Do you think people are different because they are gay? Do you honesty really think it is impossible for me to feel compassion for a gay person when they suffer, because my beliefs about homosexuality? My dad is a pedophile and has sexuality abused me for many years. He is elderly now and in poor health. I am his care giver. I do this with love and compassion. I can look past what he has done to me and provide loving care. I do this because the Bible says to honor my mother and father. Some days it triggers a lot of stuff, but I believe God will help me get through this. That if I am willing God can work through this mess and perhaps continue to bring healing and peace to both me and my dad. He has not apologized or tried to make any amends to me or my siblings. If my dad were to ask me about incest I would tell him I think it is morally wrong and I would still provide his care.

5) What does the Holy Bible say about comforting those we call immoral? Please share these verses?

I am not calling "these" people immoral. I am calling homosexuality immoral. If a person is straight and then later comes out and says they are gay, which are they? If a person is gay and then later says they are straight, which are they? If a person commits adultery are they now adulterual, or are they still a person who participated in adultery? Is this whole person now immoral? What if they never do it again are they still only an adulterual or is it the act that is immoral?

I am not going to use selective scriptures to back up my case here. But Jesus is the best example I know. I would try to emulate him. He ate with sinners. He accepted them for who they were. Do you think the sinners expected Jesus to say what they were doing was right if God Says it isn't?

6) If you had the power to, would you encourage/discourage preachers to continue preaching about the evil's of homosexuality if a few of their congregation members took it upon themselves to openly condemn the gay people in their families, schools, etc. to a point of harassment? Are there Scriptural Verses about this? Please share.

I would like to take the biggest stick I could find and smack those few members of the congregation in the head. (Not that I really would.) My church does not condemn people for any reason. We have an open door policy. We also don't pacify people with God doesn't care what you do. We are taught to not point a finger at somebody else, but instead make our own choice about who we will follow.

If I had the power to choose how preachers preach, I would do as the ministers in my church do. They don't preach about the evils of homosexuality. They tell us the Bible says it is not God"s will for us, and each person must decide for themselves if they choose to believe it or not and then act accordingly.

7) Where does one draw the line between telling the truth in love and injuring people emotionally, mentally, and psychologically? Are there verses about this in the Scriptures? Please share.

I draw the line at what God says. I have experienced much compassion and love from God. I want to do what pleases him. His rules were meant to help believers have full and meaningful lives. To save them from unnecessary hardships.

8) What would you do, if one of your children was gay?

My children are of an accountable age. So I would sit down and have a heart to heart with them. I would show them what the Bible says about homosexuality. I would give them my views on it. Then I would ask them about their views. Then I would ask them if they are sure this is what they want to do. Then I would go somewhere and mourn the loss of my hopes for my child. They would be choosing a very hard road. I would be there to support and love them. I would stand strong in my belief about what the Bible says. My children respect me, because I respect them and they see how I treat others with respect. They know they have to make their own choices and they are accountable for those choices. No blaming somebody else for their actions.

I hope I have answered all of the questions.

April 7, 2009
8:40 am
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fantas
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So they say,

Thank you so much for answering these questions. I think on many things we are actually saying the same thing but differently. I got tripped when you asked if I would tell someone that adultery is immoral or just stay silent with the answer. When I said I would ask them to read the Word for themselves your response to me felt like the only way to do it was to give them an answer. It sounds to me like you would directly quote for them what the Scriptures say instead of having them read, and then leave it at that. By Asking the questions, I got more of an insight. I personally have no judgment about how you see it, I just have a different way of going about it. Like I said earlier, for me, I wish to dwell more on the compassionate quotes and actions of Jesus. It's more fitted to who I authentically I'm.

Just reading what we are writing to each other here, I have difficulties seeing where you are coming from and you are a human being like me. This is why I think that I'm nowhere close to even beginning to understand the Holy Scriptures and I want to be cautious as to how I apply them to me
and others. Also, the results of serious misinterpretation of the Holy Scriptures are evident everywhere and so I can't assume that someone who sounds hardcore about moral issues wouldn't apply them that way. That's why I have to ask and make sure I know where you are coming from.

Honestly, you shouldn't be surprised that people ask these questions of you or Terriberry. There are so many people who have been disillusioned by people who call themselves religious and since we are unable to see each others' body languages, all we can do is go with what is written. Which to me is the hardest form of communication and can easily lead to misunderstanding. If I was talking to you, I would see your body language and half of the question wouldn't even come up.

Just communicating with Terriberry on the other thread, I learned so much and I also got to see where she is coming from and understand it, just like I'm doing here with you. You know, I have so much respect for you both for being willing to respond. So I hope you weren't reading judgment on my posts to you. It's my way of trying to understand what's driving your thoughts. It's like consulting. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean we aren't on the same side. We have diverse views of how to interpret the Holy Scriptures, and thank God for that. We aren't all fanatics, dogmatic, pacifists, etc. Each one of us does what they know how to do. As long as we can all from time to time have a discussion about it and come out still friends we are doing better than many. This is what I value most about this site.

Because I have been hurt a lot, my heart bleeds for the hurting and especially those who are victims of other people's ideologies. I think I will always respond with energy and passion every time I see or sense this. Perhaps this is why I do not wish to sound, seem, or even be perceived as if I could hurt. I have always reacted quickly to defend the hurting and at this age, I doubt I will stop. In third grade, I peed on the foot of this big boy who kept harassing this cripple, poorly dressed boy, and the teacher who did nothing about the bullying, punished me for peeing. I would still do it again if I had to do it all over.

I'm working on being more diplomatic about it though.

Again, thank you for answering the questions. I can now honestly say that I get where you are coming from.
~peace~

April 7, 2009
8:43 am
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((fantas)))

Cary

April 7, 2009
2:06 pm
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Fantas,

I am not surprised that people ask me questions. I think that is great. A chance to promote peace. Attacking and questioning are different. What I don't like is the way posters have repeatably attacked with hate and insults, all the while telling me it is wrong to do. Blaming me for the hate of others and telling me it is wrong to judge a whole group of people because of my belief. Telling me I do not have the right to make my own decision because they believe God made them that way. I am sure you see where I am going with this.

I don't like to fight or confront. It would be easier to just believe what I believe. I already know I can believe as I see fit. But this is really important so I will stand my ground. It could serve all, in the end.

Perhaps a day will come when gay and straight people, can live peaceable together, even when they don't share the same beliefs. But don't just blame the other group for the hate.

What I have learned from this thread is that most who have posted on this thread think only one side can be right.

You have decided to see me for an individual. You are not telling me what I can or cannot believe. Thank You.

April 7, 2009
3:16 pm
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Fantas,

I also wanted to respond to your opening paragraph. You wrote "When I said I would ask them to read the Word for themselves your response to me felt like the only way to do it was to give them an answer. It sounds to me like you would directly quote for them what the Scriptures say instead of having them read, and then leave it at that."

It was not my intention to say I would quote scripture as an attempt to say the only correct way is... I usually try not to quote scripture, because honestly, I could pick parts of the Bible to say anything. Might be fun to give an example. Do you want me to give you a very extreme example?

Personally, I find it enough just to say the Bibles says adultery is wrong. If the person wants to check it out for themselves, I feel the Holy Spirit will direct that person to what every scriptures the Holy Spirit wants them to read. So they can decide for themselves. If they ask me why I believe it, I tell them, I interpret this scripture to mean such and such. If they asked I would tell them the scriptures so they could check it out and decide for themselves.

April 7, 2009
4:55 pm
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Just getting back, I have a lot of reading to do to catch up!

April 7, 2009
6:31 pm
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Can anyone explain to me what two consenting, otherwise uncommitted adults do in the privacy of their own home has to do with anyone else?

Assuming that the Christian God exists, that He is both omnipotent and omniscient, then everything that happens must be either caused or permitted by Him. Thus his will is being done on earth no matter what happens. Thus heterosexual and homosexual acts together with rape, homicide, torture etc must be in conformance with His will. The only alternative that I can see to this conclusion being true is that either God does not exist, or is not omnipotent or is not omniscient.

Thus if my assumption, above, is true then homosexuality must be happening with the approval and consent of the Christian God. If not then the genetic inheritance of homosexuals would have been different.

Can someone please disabuse me of some flaw in my above, overly simple logic?

April 8, 2009
3:12 am
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Tez,

Why do they need to be otherwise uncommitted? Do you feel adultery is wrong? Who gave you the permission to decide your belief about adultery?

Why do they need to be consenting? They are both sexual beings. God made them that way. By your logic above, then it is also God's will that each being should carry out their desires.

I struggled with a similar question. If God is all knowing and all powerful, why would he let my dad abuse me. Where was God when all that was going on? Doesn't God love me? The Bible says God will protect me. How come he didn't make my dad stop? I believed in God and my dad still kept on abusing me.

Where was God? When things are going well, we give thanks to God. We feel we have evidence that God is good and present. When things are going bad we think God has turned his face on us. He is not present because bad things are happening to us. Surely, it is not his will for me to be abused because the Bible says incest is against his laws. So why is he allowing it to happen to me then? He must not be real or he just doesn't love me, or he doesn't care what people do. But I believed in him.

I believed what the Bible says God is like. But this didn't make sense so I continued to question. The Bible say God is always present. So God was there, in that very room? He saw what was going on and he didn't stop it. Couldn't he see all the pain I was in? How my dad was killing my little spirit. This is God's will for me because it was happening? I just don't believe it. If God is love, where was the love in that room?

And I thought what if Jesus was there in that room? I imagined him whispering in my dad's ear - don't do it, you know you love her, don't do it. And at the same time Jesus is whispering in my ear- hang on, I love you, I know this is hard for you. You have such a short time here on this earth, but I know the plans I have for you, a life of love in eternity. I have made a covenant with man, each will have free will and I keep word.

And just having that thought was enough for me to realize I don't have the answer, but I no longer believe there is only one answer. God did and continues to help me through this and other difficult times. I am still standing and full of love.

A question for you, could there be another conclusion to your statement "The only alternative that I can see to this conclusion being true is that either God does not exist, or is not omnipotent or is not omniscient." ? Many could fit, how about not controlling.

April 8, 2009
3:49 am
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CraigCo
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Tez,

Yea, it's the Christian God's will.
I believe Steve Martin did a bit re-God's will that went pretty much like this;

"Some of you are standing at the crossroads asking yourselves: Why am I so wretched? Why am I so depraved? Why is the only joy I know, a dish-washing liquid? etc. If any of you are asking yourselves any of these questions tonight, then you are part of the great master plan, whereby certain people are singled out to be miserable or have nothing for no reason at all."

circa 1970's

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