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Do Gays go to Heaven or Hell?
April 4, 2009
3:19 am
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On My Way, Mari Kwante,

you guys have said you are also Christians, so from one Christian to another do you guys think you were brainwashed into believing in Christ?

Do you feel personally attacked when others do not believe in your God?

Do you believe your faith is an addiction? Were you so desperate that this was/is your only way out? Do you have a miserable life?

Do you know of any one person, group, church, or denomination that is responsible for the actions of every Christian?

Do you believe it is possible to comprehend God's character or his intentions by selecting a few verses from the Bible?

If a person memorized the Bible from cover to cover, would they be able to describe God fully?

Do you feel these are opinions, beliefs or a proven truth: Because men wrote the Bible it was not inspired by God.

Every man that wrote books in the Bible were power and money hungry and that makes what the Bible says untrue.

Just wanted to challenge some beliefs by questioning. Hope you don't mind.

May the love and peace of Christ be with you.

April 4, 2009
3:50 am
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bevdee ;0)

I was responding to Tez's motives in that post.

He underlined the part of your quote that recognized the need for comfort and solace with believers. The gist was let them be.

It's easier for who?

My post was specifically aimed at his comments:

"Making unfunny and disrespectful jokes about religious founders is for some emotionally and intellectually challenged people a sadistic pleasure akin to that which they would derive from such above mentioned crutch kicking"

and

"neurotic that such psychological crutch kicking of the beliefs of others can become an obsession that is bordering upon psychopathological and sociopathological mania."

This is essentially calling someone crazy and stupid. I'm of the George Orwell, Samuel Becket school of thought when it comes to writing sometimes. One simple word and short sentences are the most effective.

(He could've used "obtuse"....anyway)

The sadism exists within religion. The divisive texts, the wavering from brutality and bigotry to love and kindness.

There's no coincidence that genders abuse eachother. Religious dogmas show us the way. Having the male female energy totally skewed toward the Male paradigm of patriarchal dominance and control is one problem.

As for disrespecting religious leaders? Jesus for example? He didn't exist. I firmly believe that and have read enough credible evidence to support it. My belief doesn't really harm anyone. The harm is part of their belief system not mine.

There's nothing intimidating about dismantling a lie. It's actually empowering and freeing to get rid of the myth because it doesn't control people to their detriment.

The world was a more peaceful place before Xtianity, Islam and Judaism came about.

I always say the concept of christ is fine, because it is part of a spiritual message that has existed in pre-Xtian spirituality. It's just re-interpreted. Even that concept has been warped by the Roman Catholic church to make people feel deeply flawed.

Tez seems to think some of us can't say what we want about religion, especially in their own words.

Well I don't need to parrot, paraphrase or use direct quotes.

That never got high marks in university. One has to find their own origional way to express an idea then site references.

He likes to throw around multi-syllables and psychoanalysis ( psycho-babble), of certain participants here, to be condescending and essentially put a halt to religious opposition?

Censorship. Control.

There's my synopsis.

I doubt that he was directing those comments toward you on any level. And if he was it was in a kinder more respectful light.

Those comments were aimed at those who challenged that solace now.

Perhaps it was illusory to the past but it was posted within this thread right after I posted some adversarial remarks toward religion.

I agree with your comments about having a time and place to discuss religion openly, and when to keep these personal beliefs to ourselves.

This thread is a place to be open.

I thought the title indicated that.

April 4, 2009
10:52 am
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Hey MsG,

I'll try to keep this short.

Succinct.

For the sake of accuracy, I always try to copy/paste when I quote someone. Guilty. "One simple word and short sentences are the most effective." I have trouble doing that, do you? Verbose? I like me some words.

"neurotic that such psychological crutch kicking of the beliefs of others can become an obsession that is bordering upon psychopathological and sociopathological mania."

When I read this, I didn't read stupid. I thought of this kicking crutches as being the other end of the spectrum of bible thumpers, gay-bashers and religious militants. Those who believe so strongly their way is right and will do whatever they feel is necessary to convince or punish those who don't believe the way they do.

It's difficult assuming someone's motives, isn't it?

I like George Carlin, too, censored for a while- wasn't he? Also Lenny Bruce - he was accused of tramping on people's beliefs, both arrested for "obscenity". I love those guys, both gadflies to the staus quo. Kind of like ...trolls. 😀

April 4, 2009
11:52 am
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bevdee.

Saying someone is "intellectually challenged" says stupid to me.

Yea.Me likes some words too but I can tell when someone is just being verbose to exude superiority. It just doesn't seem natural.

I use this forum to purge, express in a mostly unedited fashion. I don't prrof read for the most part in this forum. I use spellcheck sometimes cause I'm a bit dyslexic but having a final perfect product, as though presenting to a Prof for a final mark isn't the goal here. It's difficult coming here and exposing my weakness's. I did come here for mental health and relational reasons, not to discuss my beliefs or knowledge pertaining to the ways of the world.

It was a bonus when i found that Libs was open for this aspect of discussion too. It does present enormous challenges due to differing perspectives.

It is difficult assuming someones motives.

ASSuming can make an ass of you and me? :0) Opens the door to conflict.

Aw well. I would hope the stumbles are viewed with some compassion and understanding.

I'm gonna take my crutch and limp into the woods with the dog and my partner.

I needs me some fresh air!

I likes you sister ((bevdee)) despite the stutters and ST we seem to share sometimes.

See you by the fire pit. Maybe we can roast some weenies. HA!

Be Well!

April 4, 2009
12:06 pm
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MsG,

I think Tez was referring to Guest. But, I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first or the last time.

Hey Christians,

Do I have to be wrong for you to be right?

If I don't believe that your path is the ONLY path to Heaven, am I in for an eternity of pain, or whatever Bereft's "lovely" words were to me.

IF I believe that God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, reincarnation, Heaven, Hell, along with other mysteries we cannot PROVE

may be possible,

can I still get to Heaven, if there is one?

OR IS IT REALLY A GAME SHOW???

IS IT REALLY "LET'S MAKE A DEAL"?

if I don't choose door #1, but waver forever between all the doors, will God, if there is one, still let me into Heaven, if there is one???

What I believed as a child, was what was drilled into me in Catholic school. However, I did find some solace in talking to God, hoping he was there, as chaos and abuse swirled all around me. After getting knocked around or whipped with the belt or screamed at for all the family's troubles, seemed comforting to think that maybe someone was watching who might still love me and accept me.

HOWEVER, as I became older and traveled the world a bit, I learned and realized there were good people everywhere of all faiths. Spirituality was a much bigger picture. And people in my life, my sister and her friends, challenged what I was told by the Catholics.

My dilemna: open my heart and my mind to accept these people into my life COMPLETELY, or remain closed to them and life's mysteries. I chose the former.

If God wants to punish me for opening my heart and mind to people and ideas, so that I can love and understand better and live peacefully in this world, then so be it.

My intentions are good. I'm not motivated by fear or hate. I try to move through this world in a spirit of love and peace.

Mary

April 4, 2009
1:41 pm
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Hey MsG,

Don't hide in the woods on accounta me!!

This whole sensitivity thing. It is really hard to know when to comfort and soothe(offer support), withhold comments (detach), or give my opinion (invite discussion and disagreement). It's tougher on Libs, because although for discussion, it often becomes debate, and can become more emotional.

A little over a week ago, in the temporary agnostic... thread, I had some thoughts about Aspergers. I had a light bulb about Aspergers- the traits that are similar to that of NPD, and how maybe that pertains to my mom, and how those two disorders might be confused or get entertwined. I mentioned in that thread, that I learned something from all of it. g_g jumped right on that, accusing me of only posting that because Tez had said it earlier. What I posted was not about him, but me. I started googling. Because I couldn't find much about this disorder online apart from that exalted expert VAKnin, and no discussion forums, I thought about starting a thread at this site about it. I had my thoughts down about it- the similarities between the two, my recollections of my mother. I had spell checked and edited it myself. It helps me to go over what I write, because when I reread, sometimes I get a little jiggle about an incomplete, niggly little thought and can add to it.

But - what the heck would I call it that it not attract a particular kind of spamming? Not - Asperger's - Asperger vs Narcissism - Is an Aspie an "N"- Is an "N" an Aspie?" -? As much as I feel the term "N" is misused, slapped on any behaviour as a band-aid, or used as an epithet, I decided, in light of the climate at the site, to let it drop. I knew from what happened on the DL thread that any discussion would probably fall away and stop, because of a reaction. I don't really want to revisit the "N" thread, because its usefulness to me is past. So- sensitivity won. Discussion lost.

The same with suicide. I learned that early here. I usually have a gag order on myself about that topic, even how suicide threats make me feel. What if I trigger someone posting suicide threats into actually doing it?

The same with abuse. I went from one end of the spectrum to the other on talking to abused women, or even about abuse. What if what I post causes that woman's low self-esteem to plummet even further and she never leave her situation because she doesn't feel she deserves any better? I don't need to be heard that badly. I just don't know, so I try hard not to respond when those threads come up.

"Saying someone is "intellectually challenged" says stupid to me. " To me? Not necessarily. MOre like ignorant. Could a person with an IQ above mental retardation be intellectually challenged because they embrace a belief or belief system that does not encourage the intellect or imagination to be stretched- beyond the confines of the system? If a person only allows a small rigid confine to their thinking, might that cause a person's intellectual growth to become stunted?

Pretty wordy - sorry bout that!!

April 4, 2009
3:04 pm
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Hi Bevdee.

I have to think on that post and respond later.

Not that it wells up disagreement. I do understand a lot of what you express, and the fact you really don't wish to harm others. Sometimes people are just wired to harm themselves and offering honest support can be viewed as an affront or threat.

This deserves some deep reflection on my part and i don't have time to post right now.

BTW your wordiness I tend to enjoy.There's always something useful to learn from your posts.

Did you watch or read any of the David Icke links? I'ld like to know what you think.

I'm on the precipice of a transformation. It's all at once terrifying and exhilarating. It's very much like opening all channels and sorting out whats real and not.Shedding and growing.

Be Well!

April 4, 2009
3:10 pm
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Hi Mary, you have asked Christians some questions, I can not speak for any other Christian, but I am posting my answers if you care to read them.

In my opinion, no one is wrong to believe what they believe. My beliefs do not cancel out anybody else's right to make their own beliefs. Whether I think what any other person believes is right, wrong, true, false is not the issue. If someone wants to believe something is right even though there is proof that it is not correct, I still believe it is their right to do so.

In my opinion no one should tell another person what they should believe. I know I don't want anyone to tell me what I can or can't believe. For example if Carey wants to believe Homosexuality is his existence, then what is that to me? But if he, or others tell me I can't believe what I believe about homosexuality because it denies his existence, I say bullshit. I can and do believe what I believe. I do not believe a person's existence is defined by their sexual orientation or any other single trait. I do believe God does not intend for humans to have same sex relations. Does this imply others need to believe this, or condemnation, that others should not be gay if they believe they are, or I think my view is the only right way, or gays will not get into heaven and I will, or God is the absolute God of all, or if you don't believe in my God I know your fate? I don't think so.

I also believe a person's beliefs do not give them the right to take away the basic human rights of any other person. Disagreeing with another persons beliefs is normal and should be tolerated. Abuse to another is not acceptable.

My beliefs about homosexuality was painful for Carey and maybe others to hear. It makes me sad. Is my belief really a personal attack on another? I have seen that done sooo much on this site, but it wasn't by me.

I so buy into the belief of freedom. Freedom to decide for yourself, personal choices, who you are and what you stand for. Not in do whatever you want to another person. I really don't like double standards.

April 4, 2009
3:37 pm
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So they say,

I'm sure it's expecting too much for a Christian to state that their beliefs are simply that: beliefs. There is no PROOF that Christian beliefs or any other religious beliefs are true.

One can point to the Bible, but the Bible cannot be PROVEN. There is

NO WAY to prove that the Bible is the true word of God.

That's what you believe. That's fine, but it's a belief like any other - you cannot prove it true or false.

Mary

April 4, 2009
5:49 pm
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Mary, I can not prove God exists. I believe he exists. I believe the Bible is God inspired. Did I say anybody else must believe as I do? Or that because I believe it must be true for others. I do not feel that way.

exactly, it cannot be proven, one must decide. But, if it cannot proven, can either side be right or wrong?

April 4, 2009
7:08 pm
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Lest we forget we are talking about the treatment of real life precious children of God, and lest we forget that each created thing is entitled to live their life peacefully and safely to the best of our capacity, and lest we forget that not one of us has gone to the other worlds of God, and therefore, really do not know the details of what lies a head, lest we forget that you can't straddle the fence and say that I think you are an abomination but I wouldn't hurt you because to insult and to actually take a gun to someone are the exact same thing, lest we forget that not one us was commissioned by God to be the judge, jury, and executioner of their brothers and sisters but lovers of them, I share here some very recent news pertaining to this issue as Scripturaly understood by these clearly misguided souls. Why is it that the Christians and the Muslims, who they regard heathens, agree on this. Why is it, that the religion of love and the one they claim to be of war agree on an issue as important as the treatment of human beings.

April 4, 2009
7:11 pm
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Sorry, clicked too fast: here is the link, and my thoughts on it. At this point, I really can't see the difference between the Christian and Muslims whom they despise. They both yield similar fruits and "by their fruits, I judge them"

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reu.....s_killings

The irony of this article is stifling. It seems that both Shi'ite Islam and Traditional Christians have now found a common ground, despite their constant war with each other, and their beliefs are being carried out by some all too willing but clearly fanatical followers. How I wish there were as many news where the same groups of people were a safe haven for the so called sinners. If you have any, please share.

I don't want to restart the anger and debate on this thread, but I think we all need to know what is happening in our world, today. How quickly we are willing to turn on each other in an attitude of self-righteousness, how easy it is to interpret the Holy Scriptures to fit our narrow minded perceptions of very complex issues. We who are willing to have this conversation need to ask ourselves how we would take it, if an individual, distressed or encouraged by words coming out of our mouths, kills him/self or another person.

May we all create a more compassionate and loving experience today and may the world become more compassionate towards all it's citizens. Insha Allah

This has made my heart very heavy and sad. This is not an academic debate we are engaged in here, it's a plea for the emotional, physical, and spiritual rights and well being of our brothers and sisters who have the right to live their lives as they see fit. The state of their souls in this world and others belongs to them and their Creator, and the rest of us need to butt out of their business!!

April 4, 2009
7:28 pm
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I don't know why it's soooo hard for us to turn to one another and actually say loving and encouraging words, when we sense hurt in someone else. Any one living in North America at this point knows that to be gay or obese are the most excusable forms of hate and abuse. So anyone asking a question as the one that started this thread has been hurt beyond what most of us can imagine, which is saying something, given the purpose of this site. Why are we unable to hear that and respond in loving kindness, instead of doing the obvious, which is to condemn?

Very heartbreaking!

April 4, 2009
9:23 pm
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Fantas,
Do you think I have been condemning on this site?

April 4, 2009
11:12 pm
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Mari,

Very sweet post above, you are young I can tell, but wise.

Healing and peace

April 5, 2009
12:46 am
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So they say,

I didn't have you or anyone else specifically in mind. This and Terriberry's thread are the ones that are openly and honestly dealing with this issue so I just threw my thoughts in the mix. In a way, though, all of us who espouse any sort of intolerance based on our religious beliefs are somewhat guilty of this matter and these actions that are being committed. To someone who isn't familiar with the different sects of Islam, these hideous acts now represent Islam and it's true for other religions as well. When traditional, fundamental, fanatical Christian sects preach intolerance, all the Christians are implicated. It's after all the same religion broken up in many pieces. The injured party doesn't spend time figuring out which group the perpetrator belongs to. They just know that they are of such and such a religion.

I've just had a really difficult day making sense of this. It seems like a lot of very bad things continue to be done in the name of religion, which is supposed to be the bringer of peace. Anyway, I realized today that I need to make a decision on how I wish to treat everyone. I can no longer continue to say that the Holy Scriptures say this,so I a mere mortal, will interpret that to mean that I can say it too. If I have to error, I now choose to error on the side of acceptance. Since I do not know who is a loose canon,or on their last straw, I will guard what comes out of my mouth, so I never feel responsible for having discouraged or encouraged anyone to hurt themselves or another. That's all.

April 5, 2009
2:51 am
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Ok thanks for clearing that up. I hope you don't think you are responsible for another person's reaction?

It is possible to be a gentle spirit and very, very strong at the same time. You do not have to inflict harm to stand up for what you believe in.

April 5, 2009
11:12 am
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Off-topic, but did anyone else wonder about the very first post's "truthiness?"

It just seemed like a trolling effort to me at first. I could be wrong, and if so my apologies to canadian-hillbilly, but I'd be lying if i said I wasn't skeptical. Nonetheless, I answered as if the question were honest at first.

April 5, 2009
2:00 pm
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So they say, In a way, I feel that being of the same consciousness as someone who directly speaks against another, does make me also responsible if I do not express how I feel and think, and if I do not live a life of compassion towards all. When I read about all the different crimes committed in the names of my religion, I cannot conveniently say that I belong to that religion but I do not believe as they do. That is definitely a house divided. To the injured party, there is no difference. So my hope is to aspire to live a compassionate life without trying to create further divisions among people. Just like some Xtian believers feel that it's their responsibility to tell people if they are wrong, I feel it's the responsibility for all xtian brothers and sisters to bear the blunt of the horrific actions done in the name of God.

Those who watch the fight and do nothing about it, are just as guilty as those fighting, IMHO.

But today is another day! Have a good one :)!

April 5, 2009
4:14 pm
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Fantas,

I know you are not directly speaking to my actions, but I am answering that way so I can make a point.

I don't think I should just conveniently say I belong to a certain religion and do not believe as they do. It is not enough. I think I should fight that injustice no matter who I see it come from. Even from myself if I able to notice it.

I try to show compassion to all. It does not mean I agree with their differing beliefs. For ex. when Jesus ate with the tax collector. I think he did so because he loved him so much. But I don't remember reading he ever told the tax collector - that what he was doing was ok.

I don't think being silent about my beliefs is the best way to go. If I can oppose someone else's belief without abuse. Then others can also.
So by example I can take a part in showing people are individuals and it is possible to be different from the whole. That I can share a similar belief with another and act totally different. You know, to show the injured party, there is a difference.

Hate comes in when groups are held accountable for some individuals. Evil wins when people give up their rights to believe differently. It is like a slow fade. An emotional manipulation. To make an individual believe if they say an opposing view they are inflicting pain, when in fact it is the terrible acts of some others who are abusive and wrong. Lets have opposing beliefs and yet stand united against abuse. Sharing your beliefs should not be a divider. It should be accepted, if it can be done without abuse to others. If more people would stand up with differing beliefs perhaps people would no longer say all Christians, atheist, gays, women, etc.. are like "this". They would have examples of decent, loving, compassionate people who do not believe as they do and it is ok.

I don't think I should take a part of the blunt for the horrific acts by others. I think I should stand up and say it should not be tolerated. If I am not guilty of it, then I don't take any blame for it. I truly believe it does not have to be this way and I am willing to fight for everyone to have equal rights.

April 5, 2009
5:25 pm
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Glittered,

Of course, I wondered. True or not, it has shifted the focus in Libs a little bit, hasn't it? This topic has brought old and new posters out of the woodwork, hasn't it?

April 5, 2009
5:33 pm
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Hey MsG,

I am trying to watch the Icke link you recommended. I've gotten through the first half of it. I have my weird hours work weekend to finish, my sleeping/bowling Monday and some morning appts Tuesday morning in the metroplex (dratted traffic), so I probably won't be able to get my thoughts together about any of it until after then. I'm going to start a new thread because this one, IMO, is really about the condemnation of gays by the Bible, and you and I might be a little off that topic. I think I'll just call it Etcetera.

Yep.

April 5, 2009
8:16 pm
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ouch

April 5, 2009
9:16 pm
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So they say,
In terms of the tax collectors that Jesus ate with, the fact that he was willing to go near them was proof enough that he didn't regard them any different from anyone else. He didn't have to say anything. No self respecting learner of the law, let alone one who claimed to be a prophet would have gone anywhere close to those sinful and immoral people. By going to eat and visit them, Jesus reduced his credibility in the eyes of the Pharisees and other learners of the Law but he offered love and redemption to these social outlaws.
Here is a Biblical historical and social commentary on this story of Jesus if you want to read more on it:

http://books.google.ca/books?i.....kwTi3_DiAg

All things being said and done, I have decided that since the Bible and other Sacred Writings have social expectations ranging from moral behavior to compassionate acts, and in fact emphasize more the compassionate acts than the others, I will choose to interpret it that way and live that way, for myself. That's all I can do. In fact, I have no right to tell any other reader of the Holy Writings which parts of the Scriptures they should choose to live out. We all have been given the capacity to understand things differently.

Reading the news article yesterday, made it crystal clear in my mind that I do not have the strength/gall to point our people's behavior as good or bad. I realized that were I ever to intentionally say or do anything to anyone that would cause them or others hurt, I couldn't deal with myself. I feel I was called and created and delivered through so much, so that I can shower those who cross my path with nothing but love. I know there isn't a shortage of people willing to point out mistakes, so I need not fear that they wont hear themselves judged elsewhere. I have decided that it just wont be by me.

I don't know if I'm right or wrong, or if it is what we all should do, I just know that this is what I was created to do. It's clear to me. I have suffered a lot at the hands of many, who believed they were right. I know how that felt and how long it has taken me to get over most of it. I wish to never again do that to anyone else. I hope that those I may have hurt can forgive me and quickly heal through it.

I think this is the reason why this and Terriberries thread really pulled me in. To come to this realization and I'm so very grateful!! ~Peace~

April 5, 2009
9:42 pm
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(((Fantas)))

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