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Do Gays go to Heaven or Hell?
March 30, 2009
2:36 pm
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marypoppins
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Bereft,

Oh, please. No one can prove that the Bible is factual. You may BELIEVE it's true. Others may believe so as well. But, God, Jesus, heaven, and hell are not objective truths that can be proven or verified.

You could be all wrong.

Mary

March 30, 2009
2:40 pm
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tree_hugs_4life
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St. Thomas is most certainly not rejected by all. Gnostics do not believe union with god is for elite only. They believe some people are naturally in tune to an insight that all people are born with but due to the nature of their being are unaware of. And that Jesus was the greatest gnostic of all time. What you quote as the "true" gospel is the gospel the Roman Catholics told you was "true." And the Roman Catholics practiced homosexuality openly- it wasn't a big deal then.

Judging another's salvation, as you just did with Tez, bereft. IS A BAD IDEA.

Furthermore, the likelihood of bringing any educated, thinking individual to Christianity with the use of fear such as "you are condemned unless you do this", is slim to none. The use of fear to achieve an ends is tool of evil. Not good.

ROFL at lolli! I just love that whatever it is by Dr. Laura!

peace

March 30, 2009
4:02 pm
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bereft
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Mary, Mary, quite contrary. how does your garden grow?

the opposite of truth (true knowledge) is not ignorance (i.e. lacking facts and knowledge), but in rebellion and foolishness. you are saying objective knowledge is tested by reason and truth which is established outside God, that God and the super-natural are not possible. and yet, the criteria for establishing your truth is arbitrary and dependent on a belief in God for meaning. do you understand? okay, here's a question. what authority gives you the basis to reject the Bible?

i could be wrong. my death will make no difference. but if i'm not wrong, Mary, you are choosing an eternity of hurt.

March 30, 2009
4:45 pm
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lollipop3
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MY GOODNESS!!! What dire straits you all appear to be in.

Tez is condemned . Mary is choosing an eternity of hurt.

That totally SUCKS for you guys!

Let us pray......

March 30, 2009
5:03 pm
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bereft
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treehopper. "some people" is not whosoever. the gospel of thomas was rejected by all during its canonicity. it was determined not to be an inspired book, it was not authoritative Scripture. gnostics may believe Jesus was the greatest gnostic of all time, but they did not and do not believe Jesus is God.

what i quoted was from the Bible, not roman catholic doctine. i am not catholic. i say and i listen. i teach what i know truly, to those who do not know.

Tez, by his own admission is not a Christian. he asked me what my opinion is about his fate when he dies and i quoted Bible to him. if he is an atheist, why would he care about his death? what the soul sees cannot be denied.

since when is the truth a bad idea? i don't know about you, but if i was in doubt about my eternity, i would not enjoy one day of my life. when the heart knows no fear, no fear exists.

seek not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions. i can only point the way, treehopper. you must walk the narrow path yourself.

grace and peace

March 30, 2009
5:22 pm
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marypoppins
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Bereft,

You wrote:

"the opposite of truth (true knowledge) is not ignorance (i.e. lacking facts and knowledge), but in rebellion and foolishness."

I don't understand your punctuation. ", but in rebellion and foolishness." That clause is out of place in that sentence. Is it supposed to begin the next sentence?

"you are saying objective knowledge is tested by reason and truth which is established outside God, that God and the super-natural are not possible. and yet, the criteria for establishing your truth is arbitrary and dependent on a belief in God for meaning. do you understand? okay, here's a question. what authority gives you the basis to reject the Bible?

i could be wrong. my death will make no difference. but if i'm not wrong, Mary, you are choosing an eternity of hurt."

I'm not ignorant, nor rebellious, nor foolish, nor rejecting of the Bible or God. You made a lot of assumptions.

I also never said that God and/or the supernatural are not possible. They're possible. The Bible is possible but not verifiable.

In fact, followers of other religions may believe that you're in for an eternity of hurt.

Who gives you the authority to speak as an authority? Where's humility? Do you understand?

My garden grows great, by the way.

Mary

March 30, 2009
6:16 pm
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tree_hugs_4life
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berefthopper: (I still so crack up at the treehopper nickname lol)

You sound so ignorant it's funny. I can't tell if you are playing or not. First off, on judging one's salvation: Matthew 7:1. From your own "truth" berefthopper.

The gnostic gospels were rejected by the Roman Catholic Church. The canonical gospels were chosen by the Roman Catholic Church. You quote and speak of the only "truth" as that which was formed by the Roman Catholic Church and defined to be truth by the Roman Catholic Church. Consequently, you speak the "truth" according to Roman Catholic doctrine. There's no way around it. You've heard what was told to you, which was told to whoever told it to you, and now you preach it as if it is the truth. You have obviously not questioned any of this so called "truth." Or even how it came to be! You behave as a lamb being led to slaughter. Be a thinker. God gave you a brain to think with. Don't be afraid to use it just because somebody said you might go to hell if you do.

Learn your history berefthopper before attempting to project yourself as an expert and a teacher.

Because quite frankly, you sound like a Muslim extremist or crack addict.

More people follow the teachings in the gnostic gospels than those of the canonical gospels. Unless of course, you live in Rome or America. Those places house but a small minority of the worlds believers.

The fire and brimstone thing- c'mon berefthopper. Surely you can do better than that!

peace

March 31, 2009
1:42 pm
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glittered when he walked
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Hmm..Homosexuals to heaven or hell?..my guess would be whichever place is more tastefully decorated. ; )

March 31, 2009
1:57 pm
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bevdee
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πŸ˜€ πŸ˜€ πŸ˜€ πŸ˜€ πŸ˜€ πŸ˜€

March 31, 2009
3:00 pm
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lollipop3
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LOL @ Glittered....

March 31, 2009
5:31 pm
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bereft
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treehopper, go and learn what Matthew 7:1 means. it doesn't mean we shouldn't make a proper evaluation of things. even in verses 15-20 Jesus says we're to examine the fruit (evidence of salvation) of those who claim to speak for God. Jesus is telling us in verse 1 to stop criticizing and condemning people. stop finding fault with others. stop being self-righteous.....don't be judgmental.

Tez left no doubt where he stands ("i'm not even a Christian") and asked me what will be his fate (i.e., evaluate his fate) when he dies. i quoted Scripture to answer him.

1 Cor. 2:14-16.

the sad fact is, the Roman Catholic Church had never precisely drawn the boundaries of the biblical canon. it was not necessary to do so under the Roman system, in which the authority of the Scriptures was not much higher than that of tradition, popes, and councils. it was not until the Protestant Reformers began to insist upon the supreme authority of Scripture alone that a decision on the 'disputed books,' like the gospel of thomas, became necessary.

the bottom line, of course, is that the books of the Bible were recognized as authoritative by the people of God. the "Church" formally determined canonicity (as you said, often associated with Roman Catholicism). however, canonocity is determined by inspiration, not by church councils. the fact is the final list of books was not chosen by a synod or council of the church, but after deliberate and free inquiry by means of many separated churches. the Church met to ratify the books that the people of God had already chosen. by the second century, virtually all agreed with the 27 new testament books we accept today.

Marcion, the famous gnostic in the mid-second century, rejected everything except parts of Paul and Luke (he even rejected all the O.T.). this set a pattern: most of those who challenged the canon were heretics who wanted to add or subtract books. the rest, as they say, is history.

my history is adequate. it seems to me your facts and knowledge of the truth, treehopper, could use some work. the gardens are full of fruit, yet you choose to hold onto the one in the jar. i hope you will know when to let go of those things which do not serve you, but force you to serve them.

1 Cor. 1:18, 20

grace and peace

March 31, 2009
6:16 pm
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Terriberry
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Your such a jewel Bereft !
Excellent, reply.. ! I'm loving it !

March 31, 2009
6:46 pm
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marypoppins
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humility?

and the pompous shall inherit the earth? don't think so

April 1, 2009
2:40 am
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so they say
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Canadian Hillbilly, don't know if you have found any peace with your situation yet, but I wondered if you would mind if I add my two cents.

It sounds like your actions are in conflict with your beliefs.

You wrote: "Sometimes, though, certain things will happen that feel good at the time, but when done I feel like a good for nothing -- (rhymes with maggot)."

Perhaps deep down, you are doing something you believe you shouldn't be doing. Your body feels good, but your mind says you shouldn't be doing something, but you do it anyway and it causes conflict. For ex. It could be because you are not in a committed relationship with the person you are having intimate relations with. Or you are doing this at a time when you know you really should be somewhere else. Or, is it the person you are with or just how far you go. There are so many possibilities.

I know I experience pain when my actions do not match my beliefs. Once I find out where the conflict is, I can then ask myself, if, knowing what I know today, Do I still hold this belief to be true. If I do then I try to act accordingly. If I no longer hold a belief true, I can understand why I no longer believe it and it frees me to choose my actions. If it is a belief I really can not find an answer to, I listen to myself. If it feels wrong, it feels wrong. Try to find out why. I believe God has put the answers inside each of us. We just need to be honest with ourselves about what we believe. Listen to your self, the answer is in there. Your body is going to give you emotions and feelings, but what do you believe?

Do you really think any human knows what sins send a person to heaven or hell? I wouldn't listen to anyone who thinks they know. It is between you and God.

You also wrote: "Otherwise I still live a good life: help others in need, forgive those who sin against me, pray, and most importantly treat everyone I meet as I wish to be treated."

Would you ever call anybody else a "(rhymes with maggot)."? Why would you do that to yourself?

God loves you right where you are today. He knows all of you. Every last inch and he loves you.

Yeah, God wants us to do what is right. Seek God's will. Read the Bible and decide for yourself what it means. God is not waiting for us to get our act together before he loves us, but, our actions do have consequences. Look around the proof is every where. What we do, does matter. So try really hard to get the other voices (mine and everyone else's) out of your head and decide for yourself what is right or wrong.

I hope you don't blame yourself for your late wife's death. Her actions were her actions and if it was accidental, then how could that be your fault?

Peace and prayers to you.

April 1, 2009
4:19 pm
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tree_hugs_4life
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"treehopper, go and learn what Matthew 7:1 means."

did that, done.

"it doesn't mean we shouldn't make a proper evaluation of things."

Precisely, and that's what I'm doing with you and your words,your behavior, not your salvation.

" even in verses 15-20 Jesus says we're to examine the fruit (evidence of salvation) of those who claim to speak for God. Jesus is telling us in verse 1 to stop criticizing and condemning people. stop finding fault with others. stop being self-righteous.....don't be judgmental."

Can you not hear your own words berefthopper?

"i quoted Scripture to answer him. "

You quote scripture when it suits YOU. Read lolli's post.

Your history's totally screwed up berefthopper. You preach what has been told to you. I started to outline how the canonical gospels came to be, and how the canon of the Old Testament was only finally closed by the council of Jamnia, and what occurred with the gnostic gospels as a result of Roman Catholic imperialism , but ya know what?

This is pointless.

You are the all knowing, all righteous, all inspired expert on it all. Shoot one can even come to you to discover his/her salvation, fate, inner being. Hilarious. Sad. And the reason Christians are becoming so hated in this world.

My eyes fill with tears as I type this with a picture of Jesus in the background.

He's so cool. Yet so misrepresented. Always was.

peace

April 1, 2009
6:16 pm
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bereft
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treehopper, Christians have always been hated. Jesus has always been misrepresented. people will always be deceived. there will always be false professions and deceivers. it is not important what i think. how can i tell a true believer here on this board? i don't know you.

i'm not here to be popular. i can only point to the narrow path to those who are lost. are there people here who are lost? oh, my goodness.

my reason is but to bring the truth and to bring the warning and to repeat the words of our blessed Savior. you think me ignorant, brain-washed, an extremist, hilarious, sad: it matters not. i will be all those things and more for Jesus' sake.

here are the words of our Lord Jesus Himself. they are stunning words, shocking words, and tragic words.

β€œNot everyone who says to Me, β€˜Lord, Lord,’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, β€˜Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy or preach in Your name? And in Your name cast out demons and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, β€˜I never knew you, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them may be compared to a wise man who built his house upon the rock. And the rain descended and the floods came and the winds blew and burst against that house and yet it did not fall for it had been founded upon the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act upon them will be alike a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand. And the rain descended and the floods came and the winds blew and burst against that house and it fell and great was its fall.’” (Matthew 7:21-27)

"many will say," treehopper. many will say.

are Catholics Christians? are Protestants always Christians? are evangelicals necessarily Christians? are gays Christian? a more important question than any of those is, β€œare you a Christian?”

if any of you want to talk to me about that, i am here to listen.

grace and peace

April 1, 2009
7:10 pm
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tree_hugs_4life
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Oh my gosh. Hear ye, hear ye, and gag me with a pitchfork.

"there will always be false professions and deceivers"

Now ain't THAT (!) the truth! Seems to me they are quite evident in self-proclaimed martyrs.

Twin-Praise God-Twin

and of course,

peace

April 1, 2009
7:54 pm
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bereft

On the 30-Mar-09 to my respect request for your conviction regarding my afterlife prospects you kindly gave it when you wrote:

"do you understand, Tez? you are condemned already. unless you believe that Jesus is who He claims to be, you will go to hell."

Thanks for that. I appreciate the time and effort that you sacrificed in putting together your posts to me. I am interested in your perspectives on the Bible and upon your version of Christianity, for there are many.

Have you ever wondered why only four gospels ever made it into the Bible? Were all the gospels, according to the rest of the apostles, not admitted for some good reason?

Why were only the four gospels God inspired?

Didn't the rest of the apostles have Christ's true teachings? Were they condemned to eternal hell fire and damnation where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth as I will experience after I die - if you are correct in what you believe?

April 2, 2009
11:15 am
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The "Catholic" religion decided what made it into the Bible and what didn't. The book of Enoch which is interesting never made it in either. So "men" decided what made it in and what didn't. This is what I believe. Our whole system, as is evident, is based upon what men have decided, what they thik or thought was best. Look at where we are as a result of that. Yes there are ggod things, but over all we are in big trouble!! I can personally attest to this on a small scale regarding out gov't. state/city scale. We are a people based on "fear"..IMHO, and we operate from that base. If we are in control, we are not fearful, if we are out of control, we are in fear. Then, of course everyone has a different base, or truth, which they work from to quinch that fear.

I think bereft is speaking of what she has learned so far on her own personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Those who love God are at different stages of growth. It is wrong to condemn someone for that. However in her posts she is representing what she believes to be the truth, and is posting what she has learned. The "truth" has many different versions to many people, so naturally there will be conflicting opinions. If one believes that Jesus Christ spoke the truth, and that the Bible is the truth, ..which I admit that I do believe that, then it is totally up to others to choose what they believe. There are always consequences to what we believe...think about it...our daily actions, and through out our lives are a result of our belief system. It is FREE choice.

Whether the Bible is true, which I believe, or not is up to each individual. If we do not escape our daily choices, why would we not escape this choice? There is no gray area, we as humans live as a result of our choices. This will never change. God never said he didn't love any one person, and He never said that He never accepted one person. We are the ones who choose, not Him.

I will stop rambling now and get off of my soap box.

April 2, 2009
11:18 am
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And..apologies for the typos.

April 2, 2009
11:36 am
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The idea of eternal damnation strikes me as cruel and unusual punishment.

April 2, 2009
12:41 pm
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on my way
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True, it is cruel and unusual punishment, I agree.

April 2, 2009
2:44 pm
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On my way,

Do you really believe what you said earlier? That because you get to decide for yourself "then it is totally up to others to choose what they believe."

Does that apply to religion, homosexuality, or any other belief. Cause if you do, I want to hug you. I want to say thank you for believing each person can make their own choice and it does not deny someone else's existence.

April 2, 2009
2:51 pm
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bereft
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Tez,

1)because God chose four writers, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, to write down the inspired record of the revelation of God in Jesus Christ that we know as the four gospels. these four gospels were early and constantly received by the primitive church, and read in Christian assemblies, as appears by the writings of Justin Martyr and Irenæus, who lived little more than a hundred years after the ascension of Christ. they declared that neither more nor fewer than four were received by the church.

2)in the third and fourth centuries there were gospels forged by many and different sects, and published, one under the name of st. peter, another of st. thomas, another of st. philip. but they were never owned by the church, nor was any credit given to them. it is certain there were a great many other spurious writings which, in the early days of the church, went under the names of the apostles and apostolical men. they were condemned as well in the primitive church as apocryphal, and therefore justly rejected. they pretended to be what really they were not, dictated by the other apostles themselves, as received from Christ.

3)if you're interested in the process of inspiration, turn to 2 Peter chapter 1, verses 20 and 21. "But know this first of all that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." otherwise, see answer #1.

4) only one apostle went to hell.

here's my question: what matters more? that i be correct in what i believe, or that which i believe in be correct?

April 2, 2009
3:43 pm
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so they say,

It is totally up to each individual to choose what they want to believe, to my knowledge it has never been any different. We all have free will, the freedom to CHOOSE, and I repeat there are consequences to all of our choices.

I am a Bible-believing follower of Jesus Christ, I asked Him into my life when I was 17 years old, many years ago....that was my choice....the best choice that I ever made. I still make mistakes, I am not perfect, but my choices are mine. I just choose to make my choices by what I believe that God says, but I cannot force anyone else to do the same, nor will I judge a fellow believer for trying. I will talk to people about what I believe in, and my choices, but in the end, it is their choice how they live their life. And making these choices does not deny anyone else's existence, or it shouldn't anyway. Jesus never came to deny anyone.

bereft knows her Bible from what I have read, and I am certain her heart is in the right place. I have never met her, but because of what I read, I know her heart is in the right place. She is only sharing what she believes in. Anyone who reads it has the free will, or choice to accept it or not, and life goes on.

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