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Debunking Domestic Violence FAQ's.
March 22, 2007
11:20 am
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Matteo,

"We" would be people who choose to join the conversation I started.

Hi Free,

I got my data from the DOJ study.

Actually, the homicide study you cite also supports what I am getting at.

The linked article makes the same mistake mentioned earlier though.

If your children are not abused it is because you are not an abuser.

If one parent is an abuser then it doesn't matter what percentage of time a particular parent spends with them--they will still probably be abused.

March 22, 2007
2:34 pm
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mamacinnamon
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This is an older study: 1976 - 97, but shows the Stats of the US Justice Bureau. It is taken from a site calleed Fathers For Life. This article did have a disclaimer refuting the stats to some posted could be flawed. I honestly couldn't tell which were or were not true, but this does seem to go along w/ the stats posted earlier.

U.S. Department of Justice. Bureau of Justice Statistics. A parent is the perpetrator in most homicides of children under age 5
Of all children under age 5 murdered from 1976-97:

27% were killed by mothers

27% were killed by fathers

24% were killed by acquaintances

6% were killed by other relatives

3% were killed by strangers

12% were killed by perpetrators whose relationship was unknown

Just an FYI.

March 22, 2007
2:41 pm
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Worried_Dad
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This site references The Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect (NIS-3) from the US Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS).

Children in mother-only households are almost 4 times more likely to be murdered than children in father-only households, and that natural mothers killed 31 times more children than natural fathers.

Of the children killed by males,14%were killed by natural Fathers: 37.86% By non-natural Fathers: 22, 20% By 'others': 66

http://www.deltabravo.net/cust.....busers.php

March 22, 2007
2:46 pm
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bevdee
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Hey

(((WD)))

March 22, 2007
3:15 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Thanks, Bevdee.

I'm not of course trying to make women out to be particularly dangerous btw.

Big part of where I am going here is people that do these things are...well, they aren't normal. It is not gender that makes a person dangerous--it is personality.

March 22, 2007
6:35 pm
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free
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wd

The site you mentioned is a BAD site. Delta Bravo is a group of "father rights" advocates and supposedly support fathers rights. But they're not, really. They are abusive men who stalk through the court stystem. Go check out the message board at this site. It's my ex monsters favorite source of information. he even bought the "win custody' crap they advertise and the 'child support" software they advertise- to the point it was laughed at in court, BY THE JUDGE. This group believes in Gardners parental alienation syndrome, which isn't even a DSM category or recognized by the American Psychiatric Association. they sell "tracking" software and anything you can think of to help the non-custodial parent win custody and / or lower child support.

They're horrible.

That aside.

I do think the stats you found and those I found are not significantly different. Honestly, I was expecting men to be the leaders by far in this category, and they're not by everything I've read.

free

March 22, 2007
6:36 pm
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oh- it's not really delta bravo- that's their website- they are SPARC.

United terrorists against mothers who dare to leave abusers.

free

March 22, 2007
6:46 pm
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bevdee
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Worried Dad

"Thanks, Bevdee.

I'm not of course trying to make women out to be particularly dangerous btw."

It occurred to me that for whatever reason you are seeking this info - you are playing to a tough crowd, baby.

March 22, 2007
8:28 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Free,

I'm quite familiar with SPARC--it is an excellent educational resource.

The message boards--I've already posted about this, but I don't read em.

I got my fill of shrill gender politics from both sides.

It's the articles and links that are worthwhile for that site.

As far as parental alienation goes--I agree it is not a DSM diagnosis. But have you never heard of an abusive person badmouthing their ex to the kids?

I have observed parental alienating behavior by both men and women and also seen the effects on kids.

Anyway, about gender differences--Men are obviously better at inflicting severe injury than women.

But the attitudes that lead to abusive behavior--selfishness, high sense of entitlement and ability to be angry when unreasonable demands are refused, disrespect for others, willingness to be manipulative---men do not have anything like a monopoly on those traits.

March 23, 2007
6:21 pm
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bevdee
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Hey WD

Again, I have to thank you. At the first of this thread, I sort of felt defensive toward women. Then I read Free's post about personal experience, and then your last post that says -

"....men do not have anything like a monopoly on those traits."

My most recent personal experience with abuse was at the hands of a man, so I suppose that is why I felt defensive. BUT- What you said in your last post is true. My mother is all those (and more) things. She beat me, my daddy didn't.

I can talk about that if you want to.

March 23, 2007
6:33 pm
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bevdee
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Oh- and he watched us more than she did - so go figure!!

March 23, 2007
7:36 pm
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bevdee
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And- she never beat me when he was home.

March 24, 2007
9:47 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Bevdee

I am coming from perspective of Just what is going to be helpful when a person browses to a page about domestic violence, say a FAQ page. If someone has been abused by a woman for example, I don't see how it helps them to read that women aren't abusive on an "educational" site.

I had a similar experience with my mom. There was a period where she beat the holy heck out of us with belts--mainly when we were like 3 and 5 years old.

Only good thing that came out of it was that I determined that corporal punishment was not something I would ever inflict on a child. Not even a little swat.

March 25, 2007
1:36 am
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Worried_Dad
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You know, Bevdee, talking about our Moms has got me thinking. And feeling. And it feels a bit like falling off a cliff.

My Mom is a case that supports my point about epidemiology, but kind of monkey wrenches my main psych model for DV.

Thing about my mom, she didn't fit the standard abuser model. She was a wonderful person--to know her was to love her--man woman or child.

And she was a protector of children.

But sometimes, something in her would snap--it was like she wasn't even herself. Then she would be incredibly violent. The beatings with the belt would go on for...seemed like hours.

In the end I realize that my mom was a person who was raised with an extreme version of spare the rod-spoil the child and who also had some serious mental health problems.

I think she had something like psychotic episodes.

After I left home, she had quit drinking, got some therapy, went to college, got a life, fell in love and married a great guy.

She turned into a really nice lady.

I confronted her a lot about her treatment of us kids. It took a while for me to stop being mad. She was sorry. She remembered being "crazy," and hated that part of her life.

I miss her so much.

March 25, 2007
2:38 am
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free
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I'm sorry that happened to the two of you.

(((bevdee))) (((wd)))

free

March 25, 2007
6:52 pm
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bevdee
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WD

"In the end I realize that my mom was a person who was raised with an extreme version of spare the rod-spoil the child and who also had some serious mental health problems.

I think she had something like psychotic episodes."

So did my mom! We learned to duck flying high heels, we were whooped with the Western buckle end of the belt. And WD? The episodes stopped after her hysterectomy. I know that sounds trite, but in her case it is true. 32 years. Her grandkids have known the "best" of her, and it has been real confusing to my sissy and me.

This talking about moms- I remembered last night that mine was hospitalized for a "nervous breakdown" when she was in her last year in college. I was 6 and my sissy was 4. What really happened is that she crashed on "pep pills" and was hospitalized to rehab. They didn't use that word rehab much in the sixties.

The way you describe your mom? "Thing about my mom, she didn't fit the standard abuser model. She was a wonderful person--to know her was to love her--man woman or child."

She sounds a lot like mine. I've tried to label her- you know, diagnose her, and it just isn't possible She eludes diagnosis. In fact!! She laughed about that while she was in the psych ward - that even that team of psychologists wouldn't agree on a diagnosis. So how could I possibly?

"I confronted her a lot about her treatment of us kids. It took a while for me to stop being mad. She was sorry. She remembered being "crazy," and hated that part of her life." Same here. It's so YaYa sisterhood. My mom's not dead, though, and I can't wear a dumb hat. I tried.

Nice talking to you.

March 26, 2007
10:18 pm
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free2choose
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Hey yall. Been a long time, no?

Been reading this thread for a few days now. At first I wanted to reply, but didn't, because it would have came out all emotional, defensive and angry. Been trying to avoid those outbursts of late...

Thanks for sharing about yall moms. My parental abuser was my father.

I am one who has always been under the assumption thatthe majorityof abusers were male.

However, I have been learning that just because something is MY personal experience, that does not make it everyone else's too. BIG lesson to learn... Even bigger lesson is knowing that just because other people's experiences may be different, that does not make MY personal experience any less valid or significant to me and to those with whom sharing my story may effect.

I guess validating my experience by attempting to force other people's experience into matching my own was just another way of really actually invalidating my own pain and hurt. Like it was only real and it only mattered if others felt it too... Totally ironic,huh...

Anywho, I won't lurk any longer. I'll make myself know.

😉 Hey yall...miss ya!

(((((((Evrybody))))))))))

Erica

PS, where's seeker?

March 27, 2007
3:15 am
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Worried_Dad
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Wow, free2choose. Cool. How's it going.

When I look back at my friends homes during childhood, most kids did not seem to have abusive parents--of those it seemed pretty evenly divided, gender wise.

I do think men are more comfortable in and we expect to see them in the "scary intimidating person" role. And I think that male biology and culture makes us more prone to overtly sexual abuse--not that women don't do it, mind you, I promise.

But I am more and more convinced that what makes an abuser an abuser is not at all gender specific--it is some combination of socialization and primate selfishness. Gender just inclines an abuser to specific elaborations on the abusive pattern, I think.

March 27, 2007
3:17 am
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Worried_Dad
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Example of Reasoning.

It is known that children are like sponges--they learn language, and culture with almost superhuman speed and accuracy. Their mental models of relationship come to them from the adults who socialize them.

What if, compared to men, women are less selfish, more empathic, respectful, fair, disinclined to manipulation and unreasonable demands, and less inclined to get angry when their demands are refused...

And what if we also believe that women are responsible for "the large bulk of child care activities."

Think about it...a boy is being primarily socialized by women at home, then he goes to school and is socialized by public school teachers--again, preponderance of women, then goes to college, where he is mainly surrounded by women, yet somehow he ends up growing up to be an asshole.

March 27, 2007
3:23 am
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Worried_Dad
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So, if the "Women commit most of the child abuse because women do most of the hands on child care" theory is true...

Then...

?

March 27, 2007
3:36 am
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That's the reductio-ad-absurdum. Every single human being is tempted to be as selfish as can be--but we don't! Mostly, we don't.

We Humans are usually sort of selfish, but most people just don't have it in them to really take selfishness to the max.

Best I can tell, non-abusive is the "normal" ground state of a human being. Even people who have been treated horribly for most of their lives are capable of astonishing acts of...Humanity!

It's like Scott Peck said, the remarkable thing is not that there is so much evil in the world; the remarkable thing is that there is so much good in the world.

When I say "I believe" after this it means" I think it is arguable from arithmetic.

I believe that math plus physics--->chemistry--->population genetics in parallel with the specific population genetics of higher vertebrates, especially population genetics of mammals and especially primates, predicts the essential goodness of human beings.

To whit: I believe that Human Beings are imbued with innate Dignity and Beauty. That is a value I hold and believe in, but I also believe that it is true whether or not anybody believes it.

It's like the speed of light--you don't have to believe in it for it to be true.

March 30, 2007
3:42 pm
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Hey all:

OK, ya'll have been talking about abusers. How to put this out. Ok, I'll just spit. I have been researching domestic violence.

In my case, I was not physically abused as a child, unless you count dad coming in each night from work and boppin each of us upside the head coz he knew we needed it. I have many times let him know he gave us each brain damage, which he didn't, but ya know he just don't get it. Anyway, in my home it was my mom. Not as much massive beatings, but thru her depression. I was left to raise the others, take care of the house, be the "fixer". She'd have screamin fits and we'd all go to sleep listening to her cry in her bathroom. Bad vent system I spoze. I am totally ramblin here.

What I want to ask about is when the violence is "not that bad" as in severe. I know that's not the proper way to say it, but I'm at a blank as to how to put it.

Ya'll know I know what severe abuse is from my evil x. I have been looking up presigns of domestic violence. We know the usual signs of isolation, intimidation, threats, etc. That is not what I am looking for here. What I want to find is the pre pre signs. The subtleties of what they do right before the abuse begins. Maybe like moving things and then telling you that you must have moved them, useing a person as the brunt of their jokes, looking at you and laughing for no apparent reason, snide comments that hurt, things like that.

WD, not trying to hijack this thread by any means, but most know the "big" signs. What about the "small" signs. Can anyone tell me if there is any information regarding this on the internet? I cannot for the life of me find it. Frustrates me coz usually I can find just what I am looking for.

Thanks for the help ya'll, and if this isn't to far off what you were trying to get across WD then could we maybe do a little discussion on it?

Much appreciated as usual.

March 31, 2007
1:34 am
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Hi mamma,

No, you are asking a good question.

Let me ponder here.

I think the thing to look for is any pattern of abuse--of whatever kind.

Try to look for evidence of a distorted mental model of relationship that adds up to a person being entitled, disrespectful, and manipulative.

March 31, 2007
3:42 pm
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WD:

Thank you for the post. I need to find somewhere on the internet that has a list. I have a friend that needs to see it in print and not out of my mouth if ya know what i mean. So, if you know of any site that addresses this issue, please let me know. Anyone else's input is also welcome.

March 31, 2007
9:39 pm
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Zinnie
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I think this might help you Mama,

What is Abuse?Sam Vaknin
Apr 15, 2006

Abusers exploit, lie, insult, demean, ignore (the "silent treatment"), manipulate, and control.

There are many ways to abuse. To love too much is to abuse. It is tantamount to treating someone as an extension, an object, or an instrument of gratification. To be over-protective, not to respect privacy, to be brutally honest, with a sadistic sense of humour, or consistently tactless - is to abuse.

To expect too much, to denigrate, to ignore - are all modes of abuse. There is physical abuse, verbal abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse. The list is long. Most abusers abuse surreptitiously. They are "stealth abusers". You have to actually live with one in order to witness the abuse.

There are three important categories of abuse:

Overt Abuse

The open and explicit abuse of another person. Threatening, coercing, beating, lying, berating, demeaning, chastising, insulting, humiliating, exploiting, ignoring ("silent treatment"), devaluing, unceremoniously discarding, verbal abuse, physical abuse and sexual abuse are all forms of overt abuse.

Covert or Controlling Abuse

Abuse is almost entirely about control. It is often a primitive and immature reaction to life circumstances in which the abuser (usually in his childhood) was rendered helpless. It is about re-exerting one's identity, re-establishing predictability, mastering the environment - human and physical.

The bulk of abusive behaviours can be traced to this panicky reaction to the remote potential for loss of control. Many abusers are hypochondriacs (and difficult patients) because they are afraid to lose control over their body, its looks and its proper functioning. They are obsessive-compulsive in an effort to subdue their physical habitat and render it foreseeable. They stalk people and harass them as a means of "being in touch" - another form of control.

To the abuser, nothing exists outside himself. Meaningful others are extensions, internal, assimilated, objects - not external ones. Thus, losing control over a significant other - is equivalent to losing control of a limb, or of one's brain. It is terrifying.

Independent or disobedient people evoke in the abuser the realization that something is wrong with his worldview, that he is not the centre of the world or its cause and that he cannot control what, to him, are internal representations.

To the abuser, losing control means going insane. Because other people are mere elements in the abuser's mind - being unable to manipulate them literally means losing it (his mind). Imagine, if you suddenly were to find out that you cannot manipulate your memories or control your thoughts... Nightmarish!

In his frantic efforts to maintain control or re-assert it, the abuser resorts to a myriad of fiendishly inventive stratagems and mechanisms. Here is a partial list:
Unpredictability and Uncertainty

The abuser acts unpredictably, capriciously, inconsistently and irrationally. This serves to render others dependent upon the next twist and turn of the abuser, his next inexplicable whim, upon his next outburst, denial, or smile.

The abuser makes sure that HE is the only reliable element in the lives of his nearest and dearest - by shattering the rest of their world through his seemingly insane behaviour. He perpetuates his stable presence in their lives - by destabilizing their own.

TIP

Refuse to accept such behaviour. Demand reasonably predictable and rational actions and reactions. Insist on respect for your boundaries, predilections, preferences, and priorities.

Disproportional Reactions

One of the favourite tools of manipulation in the abuser's arsenal is the disproportionality of his reactions. He reacts with supreme rage to the slightest slight. Or, he would punish severely for what he perceives to be an offence against him, no matter how minor. Or, he would throw a temper tantrum over any discord or disagreement, however gently and considerately expressed. Or, he would act inordinately attentive, charming and tempting (even over-sexed, if need be).

This ever-shifting code of conduct and the unusually harsh and arbitrarily applied penalties are premeditated. The victims are kept in the dark. Neediness and dependence on the source of "justice" meted and judgment passed - on the abuser - are thus guaranteed.

TIP

Demand a just and proportional treatment. Reject or ignore unjust and capricious behaviour.

If you are up to the inevitable confrontation, react in kind. Let him taste some of his own medicine.

Dehumanization and Objectification (Abuse)

People have a need to believe in the empathic skills and basic good-heartedness of others. By dehumanizing and objectifying people - the abuser attacks the very foundations of human interaction. This is the "alien" aspect of abusers - they may be excellent imitations of fully formed adults but they are emotionally absent and immature.

Abuse is so horrid, so repulsive, so phantasmagoric - that people recoil in terror. It is then, with their defences absolutely down, that they are the most susceptible and vulnerable to the abuser's control. Physical, psychological, verbal and sexual abuse are all forms of dehumanization and objectification.

TIP

Never show your abuser that you are afraid of him. Do not negotiate with bullies. They are insatiable. Do not succumb to blackmail.

If things get rough - disengage, involve law enforcement officers, friends and colleagues, or threaten him (legally).

Do not keep your abuse a secret. Secrecy is the abuser's weapon.
Never give him a second chance. React with your full arsenal to the first transgression.

Abuse of Information

From the first moments of an encounter with another person, the abuser is on the prowl. He collects information. The more he knows about his potential victim - the better able he is to coerce, manipulate, charm, extort or convert it "to the cause". The abuser does not hesitate to misuse the information he gleaned, regardless of its intimate nature or the circumstances in which he obtained it. This is a powerful tool in his armory.

TIP

Be guarded. Don't be too forthcoming in a first or casual meeting. Gather intelligence.

Be yourself. Don't misrepresent your wishes, boundaries, preferences, priorities, and red lines.

Do not behave inconsistently. Do not go back on your word. Be firm and resolute.

Impossible Situations

The abuser engineers impossible, dangerous, unpredictable, unprecedented, or highly specific situations in which he is sorely needed. The abuser makes sure that his knowledge, his skills, his connections, or his traits are the only ones applicable and the most useful in the situations that he, himself, wrought. The abuser generates his own indispensability.

TIP

Stay away from such quagmires. Scrutinize every offer and suggestion, no matter how innocuous.

Prepare backup plans. Keep others informed of your whereabouts and appraised of your situation.

Be vigilant and doubting. Do not be gullible and suggestible. Better safe than sorry.

Control by Proxy

If all else fails, the abuser recruits friends, colleagues, mates, family members, the authorities, institutions, neighbours, the media, teachers - in short, third parties - to do his bidding. He uses them to cajole, coerce, threaten, stalk, offer, retreat, tempt, convince, harass, communicate and otherwise manipulate his target. He controls these unaware instruments exactly as he plans to control his ultimate prey. He employs the same mechanisms and devices. And he dumps his props unceremoniously when the job is done.

Another form of control by proxy is to engineer situations in which abuse is inflicted upon another person. Such carefully crafted scenarios of embarrassment and humiliation provoke social sanctions (condemnation, opprobrium, or even physical punishment) against the victim. Society, or a social group become the instruments of the abuser.

TIP

Often the abuser's proxies are unaware of their role. Expose him. Inform them. Demonstrate to them how they are being abused, misused, and plain used by the abuser.

Trap your abuser. Treat him as he treats you. Involve others. Bring it into the open. Nothing like sunshine to disinfest abuse.
Ambient Abuse
The fostering, propagation and enhancement of an atmosphere of fear, intimidation, instability, unpredictability and irritation. There are no acts of traceable explicit abuse, nor any manipulative settings of control. Yet, the irksome feeling remains, a disagreeable foreboding, a premonition, a bad omen. This is sometimes called "gaslighting".

In the long term, such an environment erodes the victim's sense of self-worth and self-esteem. Self-confidence is shaken badly. Often, the victim adopts a paranoid or schizoid stance and thus renders himself or herself exposed even more to criticism and judgment. The roles are thus reversed: the victim is considered mentally deranged and the abuser - the suffering soul.

TIP

Run! Get away! Ambient abuse often develops to overt and violent abuse.

You don't owe anyone an explanation - but you owe yourself a life. Bail out.

Here is the link where I found this article. There is much more information there:

http://www.suite101.com/welcom.....nal_abuse/

Good luck,

Z.

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